Iranian Ground Forces | News and Equipment

[PeeD]

Peed jon technologically in terms of engines we are more than capable of producing chassis & engines more capable than the ones designed and developed by the Russians over 40-50 years ago. Problem is that the funding and efforts aren't properly being directed towards that goal

so I believe this to be more a matter of miss management, lack of proper planning and a completely wrong mentality rather than anything else!

Problem is that their entire mentality is wrong! If their mentality was more towards "If I export I can use the income to increase my own stock va dar ayneh hal doostan va mottahed ha mo ziyad tar o ghavi tar mekonam" rather than "Esraf badeh so I'll dig my head in the sand and put all my efforts towards refurbishing what I already have" then we wouldn't be having this conversation!

Just listen to them:

Your overall industrial level must reach a maturity level, that allows production of critical systems like the engine.
If you force it, it won't be economical nor sustainable.
Iran needs parts manufacturers which can produce a ordered item for a Iranian tank engine. Specialized companies that provide the part at a economical cost, producing other parts for many other systems.

Iran is getting there and then, it makes sense to produce a complete tank.

Meanwhile technology needs to be mastered in low profile "prototype" projects, such as the Kowsar to have the necessary workforce and experience.

A tank is a great asset, foremost because it (used to be) is low cost.
If it is low cost and protected against air attacks, it can break trough enemy lines, out flank and use the cheapest possible weapon: direct shot HE round, to destroy enemy war fighting capability.

The modern cost-effect tier is like this:
BM strike
CM strike
Fighter-bomber delivered PGM
prop drone delivered PGM
dumb bomb/rocket attack by prop, jet or helicopter
artillery
direct fire tank gun

If your support and supply chain are up to it, highly mobile armored divisions attacking in blitzkrieg fashion, while protected against airpower, is a highly cost effective way to do war.

This can't be done with a $5m M1A1 but a $1m Karrar can do it for Iran.

So the tank weapon is still good.
Its not the priority for Iran, since massive mechanized warfare was not possible in the past due to enemy airpower and is unlikely in the future, since a cold war scenario is created.

Lets wait until Iranian industry naturally mature to that level, there is no hurry like in the case with BMs, air defense and drones.

PS: Karrar would do great on today battlefields but the next decades require a platform that is able to support a >140mm gun and Karrar/T-72 is too compact for that.

 

[VEVAK]

Your overall industrial level must reach a maturity level, that allows production of critical systems like the engine.
If you force it, it won't be economical nor sustainable.
Iran needs parts manufacturers which can produce a ordered item for a Iranian tank engine. Specialized companies that provide the part at a economical cost, producing other parts for many other systems.

Iran is getting there and then, it makes sense to produce a complete tank.

Meanwhile technology needs to be mastered in low profile "prototype" projects, such as the Kowsar to have the necessary workforce and experience.

A tank is a great asset, foremost because it (used to be) is low cost.
If it is low cost and protected against air attacks, it can break trough enemy lines, out flank and use the cheapest possible weapon: direct shot HE round, to destroy enemy war fighting capability.

The modern cost-effect tier is like this:
BM strike
CM strike
Fighter-bomber delivered PGM
prop drone delivered PGM
dumb bomb/rocket attack by prop, jet or helicopter
artillery
direct fire tank gun

If your support and supply chain are up to it, highly mobile armored divisions attacking in blitzkrieg fashion, while protected against airpower, is a highly cost effective way to do war.

This can't be done with a $5m M1A1 but a $1m Karrar can do it for Iran.

So the tank weapon is still good.
Its not the priority for Iran, since massive mechanized warfare was not possible in the past due to enemy airpower and is unlikely in the future, since a cold war scenario is created.

Lets wait until Iranian industry naturally mature to that level, there is no hurry like in the case with BMs, air defense and drones.

PS: Karrar would do great on today battlefields but the next decades require a platform that is able to support a >140mm gun and Karrar/T-72 is too compact for that.

If the Tehrani Moghadams of Iran though like that we wouldn't even have a real Missile Program to speak of!

Our industrial level needs to reach maturity is nothing but an excuse because our industrial level today is far ahead of many Tank producing countries when compared to the time they initially started producing them

I don't agree with you on tanks and my comments aren't restricted towards Tanks but rather armored vehicles in general.
Although I see tanks as a necessity for various types of battlefields like within Urban combat but overall I see their usefulness on a decline. I believe even the American Bradly's by it's self took out more Iraqi tanks using ATGM's than the Abrams and in the near future more and more ATGM equipped UGV would likely take their place...

So my comments are more towards the mentality of overhaul over production and the restrictions that prevent the IRGC or Artesh to direct and use their efforts, funding, facilities & personal towards production.
Why should the IRGC be restricted from using those facilities and personal for protection?
Why should your commanders be restricted to focus on overhaul over production?
Why are there commanders in charge that can't even see the big picture?

My point is when the mentality isn't there and you have no one setting goals then your always going to be stuck on excuses like "Our industrial level hasn't yet matured"!

We need ppl like Tehrani Moghadam that make things happen rather than waiting around hoping that one day someone may come and produce an engine in Iran that they then would be able to put in out Tanks! If that's your mentality then you'll be waiting forever.

 

[PeeD]

If the Tehrani Moghadams of Iran though like that we wouldn't even have a real Missile Program to speak of!

You are right here. Yes the missile industry was a matter of life and death and the leader gave Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam full authority to make it happen. It was planned as a multi-decade project right from the start.

That's not the case for armored vehicle or fighter jets for that matter. Those are different and not critical for survival. They must happen naturally.
Air defense was also not fully forced, it just made use of missile industry as a shortcut.

In total, you only force such things if you have the resources for it, it's long-term and absolutely necessary.

 

[makranman]

If the Tehrani Moghadams of Iran though like that we wouldn't even have a real Missile Program to speak of!

Our industrial level needs to reach maturity is nothing but an excuse because our industrial level today is far ahead of many Tank producing countries when compared to the time they initially started producing them

IMO the main problem here is money. the sweet sweet green that we lack. just look at the wages of military personnel. look at how bad the government agencies work with private businesses. government lacks money.

IMO the reason our missiles are "relatively" advanced, is because it is more simple to make an advanced missile than making an advanced tank and that we desperately need something for defense in short term.
also, we who will be our enemy where we need to use tanks?
Pakistan? I don't see any reason why we would fight them.
turkey? good luck designing a tank that can be used in Azerbaijan.
Azerbaijan republic? they have more important problems in form of Armenia.
etc...
we don't need tanks in near future. so i understand why our military commanders decided not to invest there and instead fund Huthies and hezbullah and...

p.s. also human life is veeeery cheap in iran. so, one can imagine why we can use atgms in masses...


p.s. 2. now that i read PEEDs post, i think i should delete all i typed.

 

[TheImmortal]

If the Tehrani Moghadams of Iran though like that we wouldn't even have a real Missile Program to speak of!

Our industrial level needs to reach maturity is nothing but an excuse because our industrial level today is far ahead of many Tank producing countries when compared to the time they initially started producing them

I don't agree with you on tanks and my comments aren't restricted towards Tanks but rather armored vehicles in general.
Although I see tanks as a necessity for various types of battlefields like within Urban combat but overall I see their usefulness on a decline. I believe even the American Bradly's by it's self took out more Iraqi tanks using ATGM's than the Abrams and in the near future more and more ATGM equipped UGV would likely take their place...

So my comments are more towards the mentality of overhaul over production and the restrictions that prevent the IRGC or Artesh to direct and use their efforts, funding, facilities & personal towards production.
Why should the IRGC be restricted from using those facilities and personal for protection?
Why should your commanders be restricted to focus on overhaul over production?
Why are there commanders in charge that can't even see the big picture?

My point is when the mentality isn't there and you have no one setting goals then your always going to be stuck on excuses like "Our industrial level hasn't yet matured"!

We need ppl like Tehrani Moghadam that make things happen rather than waiting around hoping that one day someone may come and produce an engine in Iran that they then would be able to put in out Tanks! If that's your mentality then you'll be waiting forever.

Your argument is all over the place. You now say you aren’t talking about just tanks but mechanized armor.

Well Iran has already revealed new Humvees and MRAPs as well as an APC. So what exactly are you looking for?

A Bradley or Merkava 4?

Besides engines. The main problem is Iran is using outdated tank shells. The second problem is Iran relies on too much on ERA to protect its tanks. The third is lack of an APS system.

Now I can tell you that Iran is likely working on DU (depleted uranium) for armour.

Depending on how aggressive the military wants to get DU shells as well (though they are toxic to the environment and potentially the tank crew).

In regards to APS we already know one has been in testing since a few years ago.

So Iran can easily build a formidable tank if the engine is solved. The issue here is neither IRGC really like tanks nor does the Artesh have the budget in this environment for a tank purchase.

I don’t think it’s as much infrastructure problem as it’s not a high priority item in a cash strapped decade where money has instead flowed to Missiles, drones, air defense, and Navy.

If Iran was swimming in cash maybe they consider upgrading a few hundred T-72 to Karrar Standard. Right now is the most difficult time for Iran in its history and building tank infrastructure is borderline incompetence.

 

[VEVAK]

You are right here. Yes the missile industry was a matter of life and death and the leader gave Shahid Tehrani Moghaddam full authority to make it happen. It was planned as a multi-decade project right from the start.

That's not the case for armored vehicle or fighter jets for that matter. Those are different and not critical for survival. They must happen naturally.
Air defense was also not fully forced, it just made use of missile industry as a shortcut.

In total, you only force such things if you have the resources for it, it's long-term and absolutely necessary.

I believe it should always be the Military industry that forces all other industries around it to grow not vice versa and regardless of how bad our economy gets, if we even want our civilian industries to grow that's where we should focus...

Iran's Air Force for example can sit around and wait for someone to one day come along and develop and produced high grade Ti composite alloy in Iran (like they have been doing for nearly 2 decades now) or they can take responsibility and make it happen because at the end of the day no other industry requires it to a point of domestic production as much as they do and once you do, that's when you can use the tech and capabilities gained to help other civilian industries grow.

Also, regardless of how much money or technology you have your never going to achieve anything unless there is someone planning, setting short term and long term goals and task and taking steps towards those goals... And when you have commanders absolutely focused on overhauling what they have in front of them then they can't see the big picture which shouldn't necessarily be what Iran can produce for it's self but rather what we can export... and in terms of funding you can at least try to overcome those short comings by getting our friends and allies to join in for joint projects.

 

[PeeD]

The notion of ordering new hardware and scraping old, is often applied in purely capitalist systems.
Iranian defense industry is not such a system. Its goal is to increase firepower by the cheapest means possible.
That's why refurbishment and upgrades are more popular.
It may change if Iran feels that its products are competitive and on demand on int. markets + political conditions fit.

Never forget: Capitalist systems set up companies that produce complex hardware like tanks. They set up production lines and need to keep them working for decades, keep their workers employed.
This is sustainable.

Irans missile industry does volume production for more than 25 years now and its only costumer is Iran since its deterrence doctrine is based on this hardware.

You need a similar conditions to set up a armored vehicle industry or an aircraft industry.

If you'r not there yet, you better work on setting up those conditions, do R&D and smaller project of subsystems.

Best example: Iran developed its first own 1500HP diesel engine a few years ago. If the factory producing it growths, it may one day develop or copy a tank engine. A natural project towards a future tank industry and same thing for jet engine industry.
Stop gap are refurbishments and upgrades that also trains workforce for the future and creates experience.
Under right conditions Iran may order 3000 Karrars in a 10 year contract and that would then be a serious reason to set up a tank industry.

In terms of science and scientific skills, BMs are much more difficult to master than tanks, ships, subs or fighter jets. In terms of industrial infrastructure and "craftsmanship", at least subs and fighter jets are simply more difficult to master.
Iran still is not on pair in craftsmanship and production quality control in many areas. Wonders happen, like in the radar industry but lets not pretend that it is easily possible to catch up to producers which produce tanks and jets since more than 50 years.
Iranians are smart but there are factors like experience, responsibility and work mentality. The best are in the missile industry and it will take time till other industries catch up to that level.

 

[makranman]

so i was reading mashreghnews and i saw this: mshrgh.ir/1106104

"انشالله وزارت دفاع با افتتاح این خط ارتقاء و میدان آزمایش که توسط متخصصان سازمان صنایع دفاع راه اندازی شده است قادر خواهد بود تمامی تانک های موجود در کلاس های مختلف را در تراز تانک T90 به روز رسانی و ارتقا دهد."

it basically says: ministry of defense opened a production line for upgrading older tanks. the minister said: we hope to be able to upgrade "all tanks in all classes" to "T-90" class.

what i read is: karrar is starting to be mass produced?

P.s. sorry for bad English. I'm still learning.

 

[Mithridates]

it's a very good decision by DM. we might not afford to make new tanks but we can upgrade them to an acceptable level of capabilities. i'm wondering how an m-60 will look alike after upgrading to t-90 standards. they possibly will add an extra cheek and ERA to it's turret??

 

[Sineva]

 

[TheImmortal]

@PeeD Whats your take on various tank upgrades unveiled?

 

[Sina-1]

100 hp more and it will be on level with the best mass produced version of t90. Question is: is it an engine upgrade or own built or imported?

 

[TheImmortal]

100 hp more and it will be on level with the best mass produced version of t90. Question is: is it an engine upgrade or own built or imported?

Cannon and shells are obsolete. None of these tanks will do well against modern Western tanks.

Strange Iran hasn’t made an effort (at least based on what is publicly revealed) to upgrade its tank shell technology or cannon.

 

[PeeD]

@PeeD Whats your take on various tank upgrades unveiled?

I'm glad the Army didn't assign its own overhaul factories in Tehran (Chieftain) and Masjed Soleyman (M series) for this and handed it to the defense ministry.

Its close the Karrar level but still seems to use the base turret of the T-72S, although heavily upgraded.

Maybe upgraded engine to make up for the added weight.

When scratch built Karrars will become available (Iranian engine) the experience with this project will be useful.

IRGC has its own, cheaper, lower performance upgrade for its T-72 fleet, they do it on their own.

None of these tanks will do well against modern Western tanks.

Possible, but also possible that western tanks won't do well against such a T-90 level tank.

Strange Iran hasn’t made an effort (at least based on what is publicly revealed) to upgrade its tank shell technology or cannon.

Iran is still learning from the master and mastering all the subsystems.

Cannon and shells are obsolete.

There are rumors that Russians are confident that the western notion for ever longer APFSDS rods will make them vulnerable for a stress induced break via Russian ERA.
So the relative short tungsten rod Iranians use might not be too obsolete even if its 500mm RHA number is not sounding impressive.

 

[TheImmortal]

There are rumors that Russians are confident that the western notion for ever longer APFSDS rods will make them vulnerable for a stress induced break via Russian ERA.
So the relative short tungsten rod Iranians use might not be too obsolete even if its 500mm RHA number is not sounding impressive.

Depends if the opponent is firing a tank shell or a anti tank missile from a IFV like US did to Saddam in PG War I.

Now Against export Western and Russian tanks they should be able to hold their own given they will have home field advantage (fighting on Iranian soil).

However, against DU armour tanks they will not do well on offense (going up against DU armour) or defense (going up against DU shells). If Iran’s upgraded tanks can fire next gen anti tank missiles some of this disadvantage can be made up.

Realistically the only likely country to wage a land war on Iran is USA. Thus Iran’s mechanized armour should reflect facing that opponents tanks.

Furthermore, I cannot comment on Russian rumors, tho I will say their philosophy since the Soviet Union days has been quantity over quality on the battlefield. They believed they can could overwhelm NATO on sheer numbers rapidly deployed in case of conflict.