Inside French Prisons, A Struggle To Combat Radicalization

[Vergennes]

its a false figure taken from khosrovkhavar's book. real figure's much less

Even parliamentary reports have highlighted that 60 to 70% of the jailed population is of islamic culture or religion.

It's not a secret that people of Muslim background are over-represented in French jails,with even higher numbers in the Parisian region prisons. Especially people of African background,like Maghreb.

 

[Fledgingwings]

The Capital Europe dug a pit for others now they,re falling themselves into it.

 

[Nilgiri]

Muslims,making 5 to 8% of the population represent 70% of the jailed population.

What in the flying F....

 

[Mage]

Muslims,making 5 to 8% of the population represent 70% of the jailed population.

The numbers here are wrong. These days the lower estimates of Muslim percentage ranges from 7.5-9% while the higher estimates can go up to 15%. 5-8% was probably an estimate from 15 years ago. While these days surveys find things like this:
1/4 of French Teens are Muslim
https://pjmedia.com/blog/latest-survey-finds-25-of-french-teenagers-are-muslims/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3409152/posts
Survey done by IPSOS in early 2016.

An investigation of the French youths' religious beliefs was conducted last spring by Ipsos. It surveyed nine thousand high school pupils in their teens on behalf of the French National Center for Scientific Research (CNRS) and Sciences Po Grenoble, and was released on February 4, 2016, by L’Obs, France’s leading liberal newsmagazine. Here are its findings:

38.8% of French youths do not identify with a religion.
33.2% describe themselves as Christian.
25.5% call themselves Muslim.
1.6% identify as Jewish.
Only 40% of the young non-Muslim believers (and 22% of the Catholics) describe religion as “something important or very important” ;
But 83% of young Muslims agreed with that statement.

And the 70% jailed claim is also a false claim. Its just impractical.
https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/are-70-of-frances-prison-inmates-muslims

The closest thing to an official figure is the number of French inmates who registered for Ramadan – 18,300 out of a total prison population of 67,700, or 27%, back in 2013 according to Agence France Presse. Prof Khosrovkhavar suggests that this could be an underestimate, because some Muslims will fear being ‘noted’ by the intelligence services. A Brookings Institution report says that “Muslims are greatly overrepresented in prisons and within the eighteen- to twenty-four–year-old age group in particular: they make up only 8.5 percent of that age cohort in France, yet 39.9 percent of all prisoners in the cohort.” Nobody seems to know for sure.

 

[Nilgiri]

The numbers here are wrong. These days the lower estimates of Muslim percentage ranges from 7.5-9% while the higher estimates can go up to 15%. 5-8% was probably an estimate from 15 years ago. While these days surveys find things like this:
1/4 of French Teens are Muslim
https://pjmedia.com/blog/latest-survey-finds-25-of-french-teenagers-are-muslims/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3409152/posts
Survey done by IPSOS in early 2016.



And the 70% jailed claim is also a false claim. Its just impractical.
https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/are-70-of-frances-prison-inmates-muslims

Even 40 - 50% quoted by that author is a clear over representation of this religion/culture/grouping in France Prison populace.

There are no easy answers for France here, I doubt they will go through the trouble of creating new legislation to deal with it long term (because that needs very long term bipartisan support AND ability to generate good data from results to see what works and what doesnt work and correct according to that).....and plenty of the issues are slippery slope regarding overlap with human basic liberty and inalienable rights too.....that any court anywhere any time of day, civil or common law, will side with.

France may have to simply augment existing intelligence and monitoring strategy for domestic security purposes, by better priority assignment and non-PC completely neutral atmosphere creation in such areas. I see little other way.

 

[Mage]

Even 40 - 50% quoted by that author is a clear over representation of this religion/culture/grouping in France Prison populace.

Yes.

There are no easy answers for France here, I doubt they will go through the trouble of creating new legislation to deal with it long term

What kind of legislation?

 

[Nilgiri]

What kind of legislation?

Things like prevention of terrorism ordinances....i.e how parole at early release is managed with special clauses, post release monitoring and statues....and mandatory segregation while within prison etc come into play in some combination...beyond just statutes concerning holding without cause etc....and constructing them in a way so it cannot be used by terms of cultural identity but by other correlated markers....the relevance and applicability of each one would take up a huge amount of an AG office time in a govt term....and other stuff sacrificed.

Such things take immense and sustained legal effort by a govt because of the clarity of the existing code in civil law and massive precedent in common law....which are both there for even more important reason....they are the judicial bedrock of a modern civilisation...altering them and challenging them to new more dynamic changes in society that were are seeing today definite needs utmost caution inherently, hence most govts dont even go that route.

 

[ashok321]

https://twitter.com/x/status/830104069696020480

 

[AUz]

The numbers here are wrong. These days the lower estimates of Muslim percentage ranges from 7.5-9% while the higher estimates can go up to 15%. 5-8% was probably an estimate from 15 years ago. While these days surveys find things like this:
1/4 of French Teens are Muslim
https://pjmedia.com/blog/latest-survey-finds-25-of-french-teenagers-are-muslims/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3409152/posts
Survey done by IPSOS in early 2016.



And the 70% jailed claim is also a false claim. Its just impractical.
https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/are-70-of-frances-prison-inmates-muslims

Good posts debunking the dumb 70% states lol

Also, these 1/4 teenagers being Muslim in France is only limited to some areas.

France is generally 10% Muslim according to most credible stats available..

 

[ashok321]

Population:

 

[AUz]

Even 40 - 50% quoted by that author is a clear over representation of this religion/culture/grouping in France Prison populace.

Is Muslim incarceration rates a problem in Europe? Yes and no.

Let me put things in perspective a bit..

The incarceration rates in Europe are extremely low compared to United States or rest of the world. Let's take a look at the situation between black incarceration in the United States vs the Muslim incarceration in Europe.

Around 850,000 African Americans are in jail in the United States alone. As for Muslims, there are less than 80,000 Muslims in jails across Europe! And remember, there are millions of more Muslims in Europe than blacks in America.

So as a whole, the issue is not that big. There are approximately 50 million Muslims in European mainland. 80,000 or so Muslim prisoners out of a population of 40 to 50 million? Pretty satisfactory numbers.

However, it is true that Muslims are disproportionally present in European prisons compared to their numbers in the general population. Why is that? Well there are many reasons..

Class differences:
Muslims in countries like France and Germany etc are like Hispanics in America. That is, they mostly belong to the working/labor class families since most of them hail from the low-wage workers that migrated to Europe to fil up the low-wage workers' demand there (just like Hispanics came to the U.S in huge numbers as low-wage workers).
It is a well-known fact that people from lower socio-economic classes tend to do more crimes. And since Muslims are disproportionally represented in lower socio-economic classes in Europe--it's no surprise that Muslims are more likely to be in prison than the general population.

Discrimination:

Just like Blacks in America, Muslims in Europe face discriminatory behavior from the law enforcement and justice systems in Europe. It is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy situation. Law enforcement focus more on a certain group (Muslims in Europe, blacks in the US) and end up finding more crime within that group (due to their extra focus)...and thereby consolidating the view that certain groups should be given more focus because of higher crimes from them. And the cycle goes on. In America, blacks and whites use marijuana at similar rates--but blacks are more than four times more likely to get caught for illegal marijuana possession. Why? Well because of the increased focus from the law-enforcement.

Conversion:

I am sure you know about the prison Islam phenomenon? A lot of prisoners (in thousands) have ended up converting to Islam in the prison system throughout the Western world. A lot of factors go into it. More discipline, sense of brotherhood and belonging, more protection in cases where Muslim gangs are stronger in prisons, and so on. So the actual number of 'Muslim prisoners in prison' get inflated by this phenomenon. Say 200 Muslim prisoners are caught from street and put in a jail. And say 75 non-Muslim prisoners end up converting to Islam. For an outside researcher, the total number of Muslims in prison would be 275---but that is not to say that 275 Muslims were caught from street for crimes. So you see how the numbers of Muslims in prison end up getting inflated and don't entirely present the true situation

These are few points regarding the issue. There are many other factors as well. Hopefully it helps..

@Vergennes

 

[Vergennes]

The numbers here are wrong. These days the lower estimates of Muslim percentage ranges from 7.5-9% while the higher estimates can go up to 15%. 5-8% was probably an estimate from 15 years ago. While these days surveys find things like this:
1/4 of French Teens are Muslim
https://pjmedia.com/blog/latest-survey-finds-25-of-french-teenagers-are-muslims/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3409152/posts
Survey done by IPSOS in early 2016.

Estimates vary from surveys conducted and the lack of official datas make it hard to get serious numbers. Numbers might be overrated or underated. Most estimates range from 5% to 10%. As long as official datas will not be allowed (and will never),we can speculate.

The vast majority of Muslims in France being from former French African colonies. (Mainly from North Africa)

And the 70% jailed claim is also a false claim. Its just impractical.
https://www.adamsmith.org/blog/are-70-of-frances-prison-inmates-muslims

As I said above,even parliamentary reports have highlighted the very high proportions of people of Muslim background in jails with even higher numbers in Parisian region prisons.

 

[Mage]

Estimates vary from surveys conducted and the lack of official datas make it hard to get serious numbers. Numbers might be overrated or underated. Most estimates range from 5% to 10%.

I haven't seen any modern estimation that put the percentage below 6.

As I said above,even parliamentary reports have highlighted the very high proportions of people of Muslim background in jails with even higher numbers in Parisian region prisons.

Well, how did they come to this conclusion? What method they used? The link I gave claims that 27% of prison population population registered for fasting for Ramadan. A person who doesn't fast during Ramadan is not a Muslim forget about being a fundamentalist Muslim. I'm not sure they'd be able to introduce radical Islam to anyone.

France is generally 10% Muslim according to most credible stats available..

They surveyed 9000 high schools. Seems like a big and diverse sample to me.

 

[Vergennes]

I haven't seen any modern estimation that put the percentage below 6.

A recent study (few months ago) from the Institut Montaigne estimated the number of muslims at 5,6% of the population. A percentage less than many fancy figures suggest,said Hakim El Karoui, a former adviser to Jean-Pierre Raffarin (Former PM) in Matignon (PM's residence) and former president of the Institute of Islamic Cultures.

Well, how did they come to this conclusion? What method they used? The link I gave claims that 27% of prison population population registered for fasting for Ramadan. A person who doesn't fast during Ramadan is not a Muslim forget about being a fundamentalist Muslim. I'm not sure they'd be able to introduce radical Islam to anyone.

The name,the fact of eating pork or not and doing Ramadan. The persons born from a father from Magreb, are likely to be muslims.

Most Muslims in France originate from North Africa. (38% are of Algerian origin,25 of Moroccan,9% are of Subsaharian African,8% are Turkish)

They surveyed 9000 high schools. Seems like a big and diverse sample to me.

9K high schools students from the Bouches-du-Rhône departement. This is where Marseille is located,Marseille alone being among the cities where the proportion of Muslims is among the highest,as much as 25%.