INFORMAL DISCUSSION WITH IAF PERSONNEL ABOUT LCA AND AMCA

[Anony]

Few days ago I had a chat with my brother-in-law who is in the navigation & control department of Sukhoi in IAF. I am listing the questions I asked him and his reply on those.

Is LCA really good aircraft? Can it match the capability of other fighters of IAF?

It's a good craft but it still need to develop itself to match the frontline fighters of IAF.

Where exactly it lacks?

It's not where , but total combat capability. And you can't compare LCA and Sukhoi, they will be performing completely different role. Now what I mean is, the swiftness with which Sukhoi can perform it's role, LCA is still some distance away to gain the ability to perform it's role accordingly.

Why not? What are the major shortcomings of LCA? Is it radar not good enough?

Laughs and said. Not shortcomings but swiftness. It still lags behind the combat standard of IAF.

Mention atleast 2-3 points.It will help me to have a clear understanding.

Ok I tell you one. In real time combat, point defence fighter are generally flown behind the strike fighter. In simple words these are most of the time used as surprise element. It houses a good radar but it need to fly fast and also need to perform several clearer & cleaner maneuvers to achieve a kill. Many a times it need to do the catching task as well and there are many more.

Do you mean higher speed?

No.I mean higher acceleration. It's take time to reach the desired speed.Not quite suitable for catching role in case the adversary aircraft is very close to the base or moving towards it's target and it need to intercept from behind.

How do you compare it with Jf-17?

Look I don't know much about Jf-17 and IAF is no longer worried about the capability of PAF fighters. These days we are not building our capability based on threat perception from Pakistan but from China. In northern borders it is difficult to track fighters specially when they fly low. So we need a quick reaction system.

Why don't IAF induct few squadrons of Tejas while it matures something similar to what PLAAF do?

IAF believe in quality over quantity. To tell you, IAF is short of close to 200 fighters what it really should have. But we know our quality is good enough to overcome that gap.So instead of filling the gap, IAF will wait for the quality to arrive or mature.

So you believe LCA mk2 will match the quality standards and requirement of IAF?

I think so. Tejas is quite a mature platform other than the shortcomings I just mention. I believe those will get solve in the subsequent development. But it will again depend, if it arrives on time,because delay may change the threat perception and thus requirement of IAF.

Don't you think the ever changing requirement of IAF is the main reason for the delay of Tejas?

It could be one but the only reason.And you need to understand there is no joy in inducting a fighter which we know will become obsolete within a decade. Rather we want platform which we can use for 2-3 decades. There were certain delays which could have been avoided and the concerned persons are working in the field so as not to repeat the same mistake in future developments.

So fighters can also be updated to the current gen standard.

This is a complete misconception. You can surely make few changes but not all. Engine of BMW fitted in Honda will not make it a BMW.(He owns Honda City)Updating a fighter can be understood as "servicing your car to increase the longevity of it's engine and other parts.Yes in addition to that one can make certain changes in the code of the platform so as to make it carry newer developed weapons.

I heard that LCA mk1 will only be used for training and not combat.Is it true?

I really don't know. But I wanna tell you that whenever a new fighter is inducted, it is not used in the combat thereafter. Pilots of IAF need to have a complete understanding of the fighter and it's ability. And then we need to develop strategies and few more things are there. These thing take time. So initially it will be used for training only. Whether it will be used in combat in future or not will be a diplomatic call based on the confidence of pilots about the platform.

You have been talking about point defence but don't you think with the fifth gen stealth technology, the importance of dogfight and point defence will fall?

1 vs 1 close combat is one of the most important ability and it will never become obsolete. Specially for the country whose adversaries are their neighbours, this is one of the important capability of a fighter as well as the pilot. These situation may become less relevant when adversaries are distant apart say Russia and USA but not in the case of India.

So what are your takes on the FGFA which India is going to induct in future?

I don't have enough knowledge on this to share. Only few top officials of IAF has the complete idea.

And AMCA?

Not much either. It is still a baby whose complete dressing style has not been decided yet.

But what about the model they share with us during Aero India?

I haven't seen the model but only in pictures. Only thing I can inform you on this is that, it is very ambitious project of India. IAF and research agencies are working together to make it a success. There are many critical technologies which India has to build from scratch.

Which is the most critical or most difficult technology that India need to overcome?

Laughs again. There are a few. But accordingly to me it's engine. I term engine because India still has no significant expertise in developing fighter engine. And developing a fifth gen fighter engine is completely a new and harder challenge. Take it this way, that the structure of your fighter is very good but your engine is something like the one fitted on Sukhoi. The whole concept of stealth will go away for a toss.

Experience gain from FGFA project will help?

Definitely. But take it this way that we will not be using that engine on our fighters.

 

[neehar]

u could have asked him regarding mmrca negotiations..

 

[Anony]

u could have asked him regarding mmrca negotiations..

Oops. Sorry

 

[Koovie]

u could have asked him regarding mmrca negotiations..

I doubt that he knows more about it than we. Negotiations are done by MoD officials in utmost secrecy.

 

[Anony]

Oops. Sorry

@sancho Does someone has any idea of the specification of PAKFA engine under development?

 

[danger007]

Oops. Sorry

no problem ask him next time...

 

[帅的一匹]

So LCA MK1 is a jet for training purpose, you forget to ask the condition of MK2. What about the updation to super MkI?

 

[danger007]

Few days ago I had a chat with my brother-in-law who is in the navigation & control department of Sukhoi in IAF. I am listing the questions I asked him and his reply on those.

Is LCA really good aircraft? Can it match the capability of other fighters of IAF?

It's a good craft but it still need to develop itself to match the frontline fighters of IAF.

Where exactly it lacks?

It's not where Vikash, but total combat capability. And you can't compare LCA and Sukhoi, they will be performing completely different role. Now what I mean is, the swiftness with which Sukhoi can perform it's role, LCA is still some distance away to gain the ability to perform it's role accordingly.

Why not? What are the major shortcomings of LCA? Is it radar not good enough?

Laughs and said. Not shortcomings but swiftness. It still lags behind the combat standard of IAF.

Mention atleast 2-3 points.It will help me to have a clear understanding.

Ok I tell you one. In real time combat, point defence fighter are generally flown behind the strike fighter. In simple words these are most of the time used as surprise element. It houses a good radar but it need to fly fast and also need to perform several clearer & cleaner maneuvers to achieve a kill. Many a times it need to do the catching task as well and there are many more.

Do you mean higher speed?

No.I mean higher acceleration. It's take time to reach the desired speed.Not quite suitable for catching role in case the adversary aircraft is very close to the base or moving towards it's target and it need to intercept from behind.

How do you compare it with Jf-17?

Look I don't know much about Jf-17 and IAF is no longer worried about the capability of PAF fighters. These days we are not building our capability based on threat perception from Pakistan but from China. In northern borders it is difficult to track fighters specially when they fly low. So we need a quick reaction system.

Why don't IAF induct few squadrons of Tejas while it matures something similar to what PLAAF do?

IAF believe in quality over quantity. To tell you, IAF is short of close to 200 fighters what it really should have. But we know our quality is good enough to overcome that gap.So instead of filling the gap, IAF will wait for the quality to arrive or mature.

So you believe LCA mk2 will match the quality standards and requirement of IAF?

I think so. Tejas is quite a mature platform other than the shortcomings I just mention. I believe those will get solve in the subsequent development. But it will again depend, if it arrives on time,because delay may change the threat perception and thus requirement of IAF.

Don't you think the ever changing requirement of IAF is the main reason for the delay of Tejas?

It could be one but the only reason.And you need to understand there is no joy in inducting a fighter which we know will become obsolete within a decade. Rather we want platform which we can use for 2-3 decades. There were certain delays which could have been avoided and the concerned persons are working in the field so as not to repeat the same mistake in future developments.

So fighters can also be updated to the current gen standard.

This is a complete misconception. You can surely make few changes but not all. Engine of BMW fitted in Hyundai will not make it a BMW.(He owns Hyundai City)Updating a fighter can be understood as "servicing your car to increase the longevity of it's engine and other parts.Yes in addition to that one can make certain changes in the code of the platform so as to make it carry newer developed weapons.

I heard that LCA mk1 will only be used for training and not combat.Is it true?

I really don't know. But I wanna tell you that whenever a new fighter is inducted, it is not used in the combat thereafter. Pilots of IAF need to have a complete understanding of the fighter and it's ability. And then we need to develop strategies and few more things are there. These thing take time. So initially it will be used for training only. Whether it will be used in combat in future or not will be a diplomatic call based on the confidence of pilots about the platform.

You have been talking about point defence but don't you think with the fifth gen stealth technology, the importance of dogfight and point defence will fall?

1 vs 1 close combat is one of the most important ability and it will never become obsolete. Specially for the country whose adversaries are their neighbours, this is one of the important capability of a fighter as well as the pilot. These situation may become less relevant when adversaries are distant apart say Russia and USA but not in the case of India.

So what are your takes on the FGFA which India is going to induct in future?

I don't have enough knowledge on this to share. Only few top officials of IAF has the complete idea.

And AMCA?

Not much either. It is still a baby whose complete dressing style has not been decided yet.

But what about the model they share with us during Aero India?

I haven't seen the model but only in pictures. Only thing I can inform you on this is that, it is very ambitious project of India. IAF and research agencies are working together to make it a success. There are many critical technologies which India has to build from scratch.

Which is the most critical or most difficult technology that India need to overcome?

Laughs again. There are a few. But accordingly to me it's engine. I term engine because India still has no significant expertise in developing fighter engine. And developing a fifth gen fighter engine is completely a new and harder challenge. Take it this way, that the structure of your fighter is very good but your engine is something like the one fitted on Sukhoi. The whole concept of stealth will go away for a toss.

Experience gain from FGFA project will help?

Definitely. But take it this way that we will not be using that engine on our fighters.

My cousin told me same thing about LCA... with delays LCA is unable to catch up the requirements of IAF...

 

[neehar]

I doubt that he knows more about it than we. Negotiations are done by MoD officials in utmost secrecy.

atleast hes an insider and might be a better source than these every day paper articles

 

[Anony]

So LCA MK1 is a jet for training purpose, you forget to ask the condition of MK2. What about the updation to super MkI?

He just mentioned that pilots require training whenever a new fighter plane is inducted.He wanted to mean that this is probably what they meant by saying LCA mk1 will be used only for training.

 

[dbc]

Mention atleast 2-3 points.It will help me to have a clear understanding.

Ok I tell you one. In real time combat, point defence fighter are generally flown behind the strike fighter. In simple words these are most of the time used as surprise element. It houses a good radar but it need to fly fast and also need to perform several clearer & cleaner maneuvers to achieve a kill. Many a times it need to do the catching task as well and there are many more.

The need to get behind the enemy in the execution of a point/area defense mission became redundant with the advent of all aspect missiles. Two types of enemy attack on fixed installation can be expected the first is penetration attack and the second is massed attack that was common in world war II. Penetration attacks are harder to counter since the attacking aircraft will typically fly low using terrain masking and each enemy strike aircraft will use independent ingress routes to the target arriving simultaneously at the target to overwhelm the defender.

The LCA is quite effective in the above described role has been for several years now. I believe the LCA is superior to the MiG-21 as a point defense fighter and interceptor. As to why the LCA has not replaced the MiG-21 yet, I believe the issue is India's inability to mass produce the LCA. The techniques used to produce a handful of prototypes does not scale to economical mass production. India is counting on MMRCA to receive the tooling and techniques to make this happen.

 

[MilSpec]

The LCA is quite effective in the above described role has been for several years now. I believe the LCA is superior to the MiG-21 as a point defense fighter and interceptor. As to why the LCA has not replaced the MiG-21 yet, I believe the issue is India's inability to mass produce the LCA. The techniques used to produce a handful of prototypes does not scale to economical full scale production. India is counting on MMRCA to receive the tooling and techniques to make this happen.

HAL is not relying on anyone to get it's tooling for production of LCA, please rest assured that, HAL has all the adequate tooling right from the autoclave's to transfer molds to the multi axis top of the line VMC's/HMC's to manufacture the LCA mk1/2, MKI, IJT, AJT, etc.

 

[Armstrong]

The need to get behind the enemy in the execution of a point/area defense mission became redundant with the advent of all aspect missiles. Two types of enemy attack on fixed installation can be expected the first is penetration attack and the second is massed attack that was common in world war II. Penetration attacks are harder to counter since the attacking aircraft will typically fly low using terrain masking and each enemy strike aircraft will use independent ingress routes to the target arriving simultaneously at the target to overwhelm the defender.

The LCA is quite effective in the above described role has been for several years now. I believe the LCA is superior to the MiG-21 as a point defense fighter and interceptor. As to why the LCA has not replaced the MiG-21 yet, I believe the issue is India's inability to mass produce the LCA. The techniques used to produce a handful of prototypes does not scale to economical mass production. India is counting on MMRCA to receive the tooling and techniques to make this happen.

Always a pleasure reading your posts, madam - Hows the little one doing ?

A question, if I may : Using stand-off missiles like the Anti-Radiation Missiles or even Cruise Missile, both with extended ranges in today's arsenal - Will that not diminish the possibility of fighter-to-fighter engagement in a penetration attack significantly enough that its payload & perhaps RCS more than agility or any of the other much vaunted attributes of a light agile platform, that would be the deciding factor ?

Which is to say, in the context of Pakistan & India, most of our Forward Operating Basis are in close proximity to the border areas & a stand-off missile or a volley of such fired at predestined targets even from within our own airspace be enough to significantly compromise the offensive or defensive capabilities of whatever the adversary have ! Wouldn't that relegate the LCA & by extension the JF-17 as little more than workhorses with their prime utility being little more than Continued Air Patrols whilst its the Rafaels, the Block 52s & surely the MKIs being the definitive element in any prospected engagement ?

I do apologize if it comes across as absolute nonsense for I'm an Finance & Accounting student, but this is a question about the relevancy of such light-multi role platform that has often perturbed me !

Much obliged, as always !

 

[dbc]

HAL is not relying on anyone to get it's tooling for production of LCA, please rest assured that, HAL has all the adequate tooling right from the autoclave's to transfer molds to the multi axis top of the line VMC's/HMC's to manufacture the LCA mk1/2, MKI, IJT, AJT, etc.

That is not what I've been hearing, if you know different then please provide details.

 

[MilSpec]

That is not what I've been hearing, if you know different then please provide details.

what kind of details?