Indonesia woos Japan as China-led high-speed-rail project stalls

[Daniel808]

The change in plans has baffled the Japanese side, which has already launched a feasibility study for the Jakarta-Surabaya link and would have trouble shifting gears. That project uses existing track and has different specifications from China's high-speed rail line.

"We can't imagine" what the new Indonesian proposal will look like, a source from Japan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said

I wonder why you guys so happy? Honestly, this is a BIG LOSE for japan.

They got Huge project of Medium speed railway from Jakarta to Surabaya. And even they already launched Feasibility study for that since many years ago.

Now their project got shelved instead they told to join to the China led Project of High Speed Railway.

If you read the news carefully, they don't look happy at all

@Kai Liu

 

[striver44]

I wonder why you guys so happy? Honestly, this is a BIG LOSE for japan.

They got Huge project of Medium speed railway from Jakarta to Surabaya. And even they already launched Feasibility study for that since many years ago.

Now their project got shelved instead they told to join to the China led Project of High Speed Railway.

If you read the news carefully, they don't look happy at all

@Kai Liu

The project is originally 2 separate one. Jakarta-bandung , Jakarta-Surabaya. The Chinese got the shorter Jakarta Bandung while the Japanese got the longer Jakarta Surabaya route, with this new proposal Japan will interfere in china led Jakarta-Bandung track while continue it all the way through Surabaya.

 

[Dark1]

Guys check out my travel videos on Japanese and Chinese high speed trains on YouTube.

 

[Indos]

HSR at $6bil, sounds good.

Singapore is building MRTs at a cost of S$100bil lol.

Almost $100b earmarked for land transport projects
https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/almost-100b-earmarked-for-land-transport-projects

Singapore MRT is subway, while Jakarta-Bandung HSR is not.

 

[Daniel808]

The project is originally 2 separate one. Jakarta-bandung , Jakarta-Surabaya. The Chinese got the shorter Jakarta Bandung while the Japanese got the longer Jakarta Surabaya route, with this new proposal Japan will interfere in china led Jakarta-Bandung track while continue it all the way through Surabaya.

Yes, initially the Chinese HSR got the much Shorter route (Jakarta-Bandung) than the Japanese medium speed route (Jakarta-Surabaya).

But now, the Japanese project got shelved.
Instead they told to join with China's Project, and China Project itself got another new contract to extend their project much further (to Surabaya)

I don't say "interfere" more like "supporting"
Because the Jakarta-Bandung HSR already ongoing and use Chinese Standard.
If you know the railway system, You cannot use 2 different system in the same railway.
The main system would be Chinese, and Japan will provide the supporting system.

That's why the japanese side doesn't look happy, if you read their statement carefully.

 

[Mista]

Must be because of your high land prices?

Partly.

But the biggest reason is because it's entirely underground and there are 60+ stations under construction, some of which are interchange with some space allotted for shops like in Tokyo.

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/comparing-singapores-newest-and-oldest-mrt-lines

It's expensive to build such a massive underground network in a dense city like Singapore.

 

[striver44]

Yes, initially the Chinese HSR got the much Shorter route (Jakarta-Bandung) than the Japanese medium speed route (Jakarta-Surabaya).

But now, the Japanese project got shelved.
Instead they told to join with China's Project, and China Project itself got another new contract to extend their project much further (to Surabaya)

I don't say "interfere" more like "supporting"
Because the Jakarta-Bandung HSR already ongoing and use Chinese Standard.
If you know the railway system, You cannot use 2 different system in the same railway.
The main system would be Chinese, and Japan will provide the supporting system.

That's why the japanese side doesn't look happy, if you read their statement carefully.

Well what can I say your pie of the project must be reduced to accommodate the Japanese now.

Aaanyway, competition is always good.

 

[Daniel808]

Well what can I say your pie of the project must be reduced to accommodate the Japanese now.

Aaanyway, competition is always good.

Reduced? No. Got a new bigger pie, Yes.
Before this, Chinese only got a small pie (Jakarta-Bandung only)
But now, their project extended to Surabaya.

Yes, I'm agree with you Competition is always good

 

[Indos]

The main reason of the delay is previously due to land acquisition issues and local red tape bureaucracy (even Covid-19 didn't slow the work as much)... Physical work that should have started in 2016 only started in late 2018 and only accelerated in 2019... The actual construction time so far is only about 1,5 years and the progress is actually quite impressive..

With all regards to Japan, even if they had gotten this project, they will still face the same delays... Simply put, no land no construction... Just like what Japan is currently facing with the Indian HSR project... I believe what the article is talking about is for the possible future extension of the HSR line (Bandung - Surabaya line) which is actually outside the scope of the current ongoing project (Jakarta - Bandung line).

If true, it would also be interesting to see how the gov plans to fund the HSR extension project, as currently the project is funded purely under the Business-to-Business scheme (between Indonesian and Chinese SOEs) with no gov funding (APBN) at all... Japan previously lost out due to their insistence for gov guarantees in this project (also higher price tag and longer construction time).

I prefer Jakarta-Surabaya should be semi high speed instead of HSR and should be 100 % SOE consortium project so that we can use our train made by INKA to serve that route. Currently INKA and BPPT try to make semi high speed train with the prototype scheduled to be ready in 2024. It is a profitable route.

 

[striver44]

Reduced? No. Got a new bigger pie, Yes.
Before this, Chinese only got a small pie (Jakarta-Bandung only)
But now, their project extended to Surabaya.

Yes, I'm agree with you Competition is always good

Haha trying to twist word, china will get it's pie even smaller while Japan will not only got it's share of the Chinese it'll continue the Bandung Surabaya track.
Next time please don't cause cost overruns.

Airlangga Hartarto, coordinating minister for economic affairs, has indicated that the project will be delayed by another year. A review of the country's infrastructure development projects raised the projected cost of the Jakarta-Bandung link to $6 billion from the previous estimate of $5.5 billion.

This led to the idea of extending the railway to Surabaya and bringing Japan into the project. The proposal came to light May 29, after Widodo and members of his cabinet met to reevaluate national strategic projects.

"To be more economical, President Jokowi has instructed that the project not stop at Bandung but be extended to Surabaya" and also asked to add Japan to the consortium, Airlangga said after the meeting, as reported by The Jakarta Post.

 

[Whizzack]

Yes, initially the Chinese HSR got the much Shorter route (Jakarta-Bandung) than the Japanese medium speed route (Jakarta-Surabaya).

But now, the Japanese project got shelved.
Instead they told to join with China's Project, and China Project itself got another new contract to extend their project much further (to Surabaya)

I don't say "interfere" more like "supporting"
Because the Jakarta-Bandung HSR already ongoing and use Chinese Standard.
If you know the railway system, You cannot use 2 different system in the same railway.
The main system would be Chinese, and Japan will provide the supporting system.

That's why the japanese side doesn't look happy, if you read their statement carefully.

The Japanese medium speed rail line is not shelved and won't be... It's a different project, with a different purpose, and a different funding and ToT scheme compared to the HSR line... Japan is unhappy not because their project got shelved, but because they feel that they suddenly got dragged into the HSR project again when they have not even been consulted yet.. They feel like we are purposely pitting them against China for no good reason...

This is just some wishful gov talk, oblivious of the technical realities on the ground... Japan will stick with their Jakarta - Surabaya medium speed line and China with their Jakarta - Bandung HSR line... Future extension plans for the HSR line will be for future discussion when (or if) funding is available...

 

[Daniel808]

Haha trying to twist word, china will get it's pie even smaller while Japan will not only got it's share of the Chinese it'll continue the Bandung Surabaya track.
Next time please don't cause cost overruns.

Airlangga Hartarto, coordinating minister for economic affairs, has indicated that the project will be delayed by another year. A review of the country's infrastructure development projects raised the projected cost of the Jakarta-Bandung link to $6 billion from the previous estimate of $5.5 billion.

This led to the idea of extending the railway to Surabaya and bringing Japan into the project. The proposal came to light May 29, after Widodo and members of his cabinet met to reevaluate national strategic projects.

"To be more economical, President Jokowi has instructed that the project not stop at Bandung but be extended to Surabaya" and also asked to add Japan to the consortium, Airlangga said after the meeting, as reported by The Jakarta Post.

You are the one that trying to twist the words

Reality for what happen right now :
1. China's HSR project got extended much further to Surabaya (from Jakarta-Bandung only).

2. Japanese Huge project (Medium speed from Jakarta to Surabaya) got shelved, instead they told to join with China in new Jakarta-Surabaya instead.

3. The system will be using Chinese Standard, and Japanese will provide supporting system.
(Because you cannot use 2 different standard for same railway, and the Bandung one already use Chinese Standard System)

That's why japanese doesn't look happy at all. You can see their statement
The change in plans has baffled the Japanese side, which has already launched a feasibility study for the Jakarta-Surabaya link and would have trouble shifting gears. That project uses existing track and has different specifications from China's high-speed rail line.

"We can't imagine" what the new Indonesian proposal will look like, a source from Japan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said

The Japanese medium speed rail line is not shelved and won't be... It's a different project, with a different purpose, and a different funding and ToT scheme compared to the HSR line... Japan is unhappy not because their project got shelved, but because they feel that they suddenly got dragged into the HSR project again when they have not even been consulted yet.. They feel like we are purposely pitting them against China for no good reason...

This is just some wishful gov talk, oblivious of the technical realities on the ground... Japan will stick with their Jakarta - Surabaya medium speed line and China with their Jakarta - Bandung HSR line... Future extension plans for the HSR line will be for future discussion when (or if) funding is available...

Of course the government will not say it "shelved" directly. It will anger the japanese.

But you can now what really happen in the field from their statement.
The change in plans has baffled the Japanese side, which has already launched a feasibility study for the Jakarta-Surabaya link and would have trouble shifting gears. That project uses existing track and has different specifications from China's high-speed rail line.

 

[striver44]

You are the one that trying to twist the words

Reality for what happen right now :
1. China's HSR project got extended much further to Surabaya (from Jakarta-Bandung only).

2. Japanese Huge project (Medium speed from Jakarta to Surabaya) got shelved, instead they told to join with China in new Jakarta-Surabaya instead.

3. The system will be using Chinese Standard, and Japanese will provide supporting system.
(Because you cannot use 2 different standard for same railway, and the Bandung one already use Chinese Standard System)

That's why japanese doesn't look happy at all. You can see their statement
The change in plans has baffled the Japanese side, which has already launched a feasibility study for the Jakarta-Surabaya link and would have trouble shifting gears. That project uses existing track and has different specifications from China's high-speed rail line.

"We can't imagine" what the new Indonesian proposal will look like, a source from Japan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said

There's where the negotiations wil take place, if it materialize the Chinese part will have to accommodate it's share of construction with the Japanese,it will not be a chinese HSR. Instead it will be called a sino-Japanese HSR project. And that means the Japanese will now have a say in the so called "flagship of BRI project" in Indonesia, not bad at all. I support. We must put Japanese in every Chinese project in Indonesia.

 

[Daniel808]

There's where the negotiations wil take place, if it materialize the Chinese part will have to accommodate it's share of construction with the Japanese,it will not be a chinese HSR. Instead it will be called a sino-Japanese HSR project. And that means the Japanese will now have a say in the so called "flagship of BRI project" in Indonesia, not bad at all. I support. We must put Japanese in every Chinese project in Indonesia.

Yeah, whatever you say
Congrats for providing supporting system.


But in reality, you cannot put 2 different standard system in the same railway.
Jakarta to Bandung HSR already use Chinese Standard System, and it will be using same Chinese standard system to Surabaya with another add supporting system from Japan.


You need to learn more about Railway system
That's why your Japanese boss tell this

The change in plans has baffled the Japanese side, which has already launched a feasibility study for the Jakarta-Surabaya link and would have trouble shifting gears. That project uses existing track and has different specifications from China's high-speed rail line.

"We can't imagine" what the new Indonesian proposal will look like, a source from Japan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said

 

[striver44]

Yeah, whatever you say
Congrats for providing supporting system.


But in reality, you cannot put 2 different standard system in the same railway.
Jakarta to Bandung HSR already use Chinese Standard System, and it will be using same Chinese standard system to Surabaya with another add supporting system from Japan.


You need to learn more about Railway system

Sure it's not about the railway or the rail gauge or whatever If you pay attention , it's about putting another player in china own games.
Please continue building ,we need chinese money and tools while we confront them on the south china sea issues.