Thank you bro. I can say that Indonesia is getting better after we have democracy since 1998, I hope similar thing to Pakistan as well.
LOL until so far you still dont get it. Majority of Muslim accept Pancasila and our constitution UUD 45. Pancasila comes from Islam (it has Tauhid as its first pillar). Darul Islam is a rebellion who want to change Pancasila so it is different with Islamist struggle. We are satisfied already with Pancasila and Constitution (apart the fact that it can be amendment). We are very satisfied with our constitution preambule because it uses the word ALLAH not tuhan (God), very Islamic.
Look lady, The one that beat Dutch and Communism in Indonesia is TNI and Islamist. Many of our heroes are Islamist (Cut Nyak Dien, Tuanku Imam Bonjol, etc) Our first TNI commander is also an Islamist (Sudirman). Many of our founding father are an Islamist. Islamist also have great role in bringing democracy to Indonesia. We are in a very comfortable position right now. Many of our enemy has been eliminated (Dutch/Communism/authoritarian regime).
Changing Dutch law into Shariah law is a matter of democratic struggle in a democratic Indonesia. You are still living in New Order mind (Soeharto regime).
Republika newspaper is owned by Mahaka group and one of its majority stake holders has become Jokowi team campaign leader. You all should google Erick Tohir
Look this is prembule of our constitution uses ALLAH words so we are comfortable with it
"Bahwa sesungguhnya kemerdekaan itu ialah hak segala bangsa dan oleh sebab itu, maka penjajahan diatas dunia harus dihapuskan karena tidak sesuai dengan perikemanusiaan dan perikeadilan."
"Dan perjuangan pergerakan kemerdekaan Indonesia telah sampailah kepada saat yang berbahagia dengan selamat sentosa mengantarkan rakyat Indonesia ke depan pintu gerbang kemerdekaan negara Indonesia, yang merdeka, bersatu, berdaulat, adil dan makmur."
"Atas berkat rahmat Allah Yang Maha Kuasa dan dengan didorongkan oleh keinginan luhur, supaya berkehidupan kebangsaan yang bebas, maka rakyat Indonesia menyatakan dengan ini kemerdekaannya."
"Kemudian daripada itu untuk membentuk suatu pemerintah negara Indonesia yang melindungi segenap bangsa Indonesia dan seluruh tumpah darah Indonesia dan untuk memajukan kesejahteraan umum, mencerdaskan kehidupan bangsa, dan ikut melaksanakan ketertiban dunia yang berdasarkan kemerdekaan, perdamaian abadi dan keadilan sosial, maka disusunlah kemerdekaan kebangsaan Indonesia itu dalam suatu Undang-Undang Dasar negara Indonesia, yang terbentuk dalam suatu susunan negara Republik Indonesia yang berkedaulatan rakyat dengan berdasar kepada :
Ketuhanan Yang Maha Esa, (Tauhid)
kemanusiaan yang adil dan beradab,
persatuan Indonesia, dan kerakyatan yang dipimpin oleh hikmat kebijaksanaan dalam permusyawaratan/perwakilan,
serta dengan mewujudkan suatu keadilan sosial bagi seluruh rakyat Indonesia."
Lol Communism is an enemy of Islamist, and it is TNI and Islamist who tear it down.TNI is also divided at that time.
Islam has become one of source of our positive law, and it has also been supported by our Constitutional Court Chairman, Hamdan Zoelva. You can read it in here : https://hamdanzoelva.wordpress.com/...lam-konstitusi-dan-sistem-hukum-di-indonesia/
I mentioned foreign poster because they are interested with the discussion, while Indonesian members that are in the discussion are all having liberal view except me.
Alright, so, I hope everyone here is ready for a long read. I've tried to use easy, laymans english. Ask me if you want anything clarified. All video's and articles posted with summary in case you don't have time to watch/read.
First of all, I'll talk about the general 3 divisions of thought in regards to Pancasila-Sharia:
Finally I'll close with a collection of my personal thoughts on the matter.
- Pro-Secularist: Pancasila as a 'Hard Limit'
- Moderate: Pancasila as a 'General Guideline'
- Pro-Islamist: Pancasila as a 'Flawed Compromise'
________________________
Ever since independence, and in fact, before it. Just how much a role Islam would play in Indonesia's Governance was a hotly divisive topic. The main problem stemmed from the fact that during Independence Muslims made up a clear and strong majority of the population, but in terms of land ownership and control of natural resources... the minority was often almost equal to the Islamic majority.
A compromise was needed since multiple areas in Indonesia where the religious minorities, were majorities.
As such, to settle that and numerous other considerations and dilemmas, the Pancasila was born.
Not fully accurate, but gives you an idea on how unfeasible an purely Islamic Nation would be to keep together
It contains these 5 principles (Translated)
As you might be able to guess, the Pancasila can be interpreted in multiple ways. Indeed it has been by successive Indonesian governments. More on that later.
Panca=Five, Sila=Principles, So Pancasila is the 'Five Principles'
In terms of Pancasila and Shariah, schools of thought can be roughly divided into 3 schools.
How Pro-secularists view Islamisation, taken from the New York TimesHeld by pro-secularists, they view that Pancasila's first principle: "Belief in the one and only God." enshrines freedom of religion to the religions that the principle encompasses, and due to the other 4 principles, one form of religion should never be given preferential treatment as it would make the rest of Pancasila unfeasible. At least that's what they believe.
- Pancasila is a 'Hard Limit'
This faction believes that a marriage between religion and state, especially Islam as the majority religion, is going to create a 'duopoly' of indoctrination and allow evil individuals to easily justify cruelty against the people as "For the Greater Good"
Furthermore, they fear how a strong religious identity would come into competition with the national identity, weakening internal stability and fermenting insurrection.
A common motto is "If it isn't broken, why fix it?".
This was the strongly held belief of General Suharto, leader of the 'New Order' Government that led Indonesia from 1966 to 1998. Some nationalist parties today hold this stance.
For others, the strength of Pancasila is in its adaptability in the face of changing times and adversityFor these people, Pancasila's 5 principles are adaptable. They don't actually seek to change them, but they believe that the principles could be adapted according to current needs so long as it doesn't go too far.
- Pancasila is a 'General Guideline'
Many of these people point to how Pancasila has continued to be national ideology even during the 'Old Order' Dictatorship, the "New Order" Dictatorship, and the Democratic "Reformation" era. Each of these times had differing interpretations of Pancasila, and it worked, giving each type of government legitimacy despite widely differing
For them, inflexibility means brittle. Brittle breaks.
They don't mind Sharia inspired bylaws so long as no one tries to rewrite the constitution or the Pancasila. For them, "Sharia-inspired but Pancasila compliant laws" are not a self-contradiction. In fact, they tend to also be tolerant of protestant or other religion-leaning laws in areas where the religious minority have a clear majority. Bible inspired bylaws in Protestant Papua for example.
This group is quite diverse, since there is great differences in how each individual thinks "Adaptable" ends and "Subversive" begins. What they do agree on though is that Pancasila is a living law that organically evolves in interpretation, and that such adaptability is a strength, not a weakness. The Pancasila does not set hard limits, it sets up negotiation parameters and allows room for diplomacy among internal factions.
Pancasila is either obsolete, or a gross injustice to begin with. It was a lie!These are the people the other two groups agree to team up against. Be they separatists, islamists, or hard-core atheists, they believe that the Pancasila either goes too far, or does too little, and it cannot be salvaged.
- Pancasila is a 'Flawed Compromise'
It must be replaced, they say.
While still somewhere in the grey area between this group and the second group, there are political parties who make it clear that their end goal is to alter the Constitution and Pancasila along with it. While bordering on traitorous, they are given some level of toleration since many otherwise violent individuals instead voice their opinion through peaceful voting. Furthermore, being included in national government apparatus naturally dilutes their ideology, and exposes them to the perils of governing. Unlike other Islamist factions in the Islamic world, Islamist factions in Indonesia cannot paint themselves as saints and perfect beings, as they've been exposed to be similar to everyone else - corruptible and incompetent.
_______________________
So, to be perfectly honest, Islam is imbedded into the culture of multiple areas of Indonesia, predominantly Kalimantan, Java, and Sumatera Island.
- Background
Altogether thats roughly 200 Million of Indonesia's 260 Million citizens. Of course, note that while the culture is heavily influenced by Islam in these areas, it is Islam that has been adapted to local conditions.
As it is, Javan Islamist thoughts are heavily influenced by the Hindu-Buddhist culture (Islamic Mysticism), Sumatera is influenced by Arabic Islam (Islamic Legalism), while Kalimantan is has a strong islamic identity as a balance of both (Islam Wasathiyyah/ 'Middle-Way' Islam). Sulawesi, on the other hand, has yet to settle on a strong Islamic school of teaching.
As such, there is strong support for nationalism based government even from Islamic Organizations, as an Islamic Nation is bound to have to pick a "Correct" form of Islam to promote. Chief among these supporters is the Nadhatul Ulama which considers itself a Champion of Islamic Nationalism, and its mandates the support of Pancasila in its organisational charter/constitution.
With 50 Million members, the Nadhatul Ulama is easily the largest Islamic Organization on Earth.
Furthermore, in truth, the bickering about Shariah and Pancasila is missing the bigger picture in the Consitutional Court Ruling: The ever shifting tides between the Central and Local Governments.
The current Indonesia is often considered a Quasi-Federation. In that it is a weird mix of Federalist structures blended in with centralism and decentralisation. Every single year, the tide shifts a bit one way or another.
For example, although the constitutional court ruled that the home ministry can't unilaterally repeal bylaws, local governments have voluntarily given up their right to set up local business permits in order to facilitate the OSS, One Stop Service of business permits set up byu the central government. Focusing solely on the Pancasila-Sharia dillema is missing the bigger problem.
Personally, I believe that some level of religious-inspired bylaws are tolerable. I fully agree with the banning of subversive organisations like Hizbut Tahrir, but I also believe that this increased flexibility in the implementation of Pancasila - along with decentralisation - is what has allowed less armed conflict to break out. Religion - including Islam is deeply rooted in indonesia, trying to eradicate it from public life is idiotic and will cause more harm than good, but the Pancasila is a good compromise that protects us from the worst of problems of theocracy where anything and everything can be justified by "BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO".
I feel that people who idolise "Progressivism" are seriously blind to the societal breakdown in such countries. 40%+ rates of divorce, suicides, drug abuse, breakdown of family, ect, ect. The list goes on and on. Indonesia might be less developed than Malaysia or Singapore, but our citizens have more political freedom than Singapore, and our laws are less racist than Malaysia. In fact our murder rate is among the lowest in the world, below even Australia or Germany!
I Agree with Auz when he says that people need to serious stop looking at real life through cliche's and black-and-white morality. Thats only possible in Hollywood movies and games.
For the basis of my thoughts, here are 2 videos:
Summary: Indonesia has always been divided between hard-core nationalists and hard core Islamists. The source of stability in the post reformation era is the emergence of a moderate faction that the allows the other two sides to negotiate governance through them.
Summary: The source of Indonesia's stability and progress is not liberal values, not islamism, and not rule of law. Its the ability to negotiate the slew of differences and the mental adaptability of its people and leaders.
@AUz @Nilgiri
Alright, so, I hope everyone here is ready for a long read. I've tried to use easy, laymans english. Ask me if you want anything clarified. All video's and articles posted with summary in case you don't have time to watch/read.
First of all, I'll talk about the general 3 divisions of thought in regards to Pancasila-Sharia:
Finally I'll close with a collection of my personal thoughts on the matter.
- Pro-Secularist: Pancasila as a 'Hard Limit'
- Moderate: Pancasila as a 'General Guideline'
- Pro-Islamist: Pancasila as a 'Flawed Compromise'
________________________
Ever since independence, and in fact, before it. Just how much a role Islam would play in Indonesia's Governance was a hotly divisive topic. The main problem stemmed from the fact that during Independence Muslims made up a clear and strong majority of the population, but in terms of land ownership and control of natural resources... the minority was often almost equal to the Islamic majority.
A compromise was needed since multiple areas in Indonesia where the religious minorities, were majorities.
As such, to settle that and numerous other considerations and dilemmas, the Pancasila was born.
Not fully accurate, but gives you an idea on how unfeasible an purely Islamic Nation would be to keep together
It contains these 5 principles (Translated)
As you might be able to guess, the Pancasila can be interpreted in multiple ways. Indeed it has been by successive Indonesian governments. More on that later.
Panca=Five, Sila=Principles, So Pancasila is the 'Five Principles'
In terms of Pancasila and Shariah, schools of thought can be roughly divided into 3 schools.
How Pro-secularists view Islamisation, taken from the New York TimesHeld by pro-secularists, they view that Pancasila's first principle: "Belief in the one and only God." enshrines freedom of religion to the religions that the principle encompasses, and due to the other 4 principles, one form of religion should never be given preferential treatment as it would make the rest of Pancasila unfeasible. At least that's what they believe.
- Pancasila is a 'Hard Limit'
This faction believes that a marriage between religion and state, especially Islam as the majority religion, is going to create a 'duopoly' of indoctrination and allow evil individuals to easily justify cruelty against the people as "For the Greater Good"
Furthermore, they fear how a strong religious identity would come into competition with the national identity, weakening internal stability and fermenting insurrection.
A common motto is "If it isn't broken, why fix it?".
This was the strongly held belief of General Suharto, leader of the 'New Order' Government that led Indonesia from 1966 to 1998. Some nationalist parties today hold this stance.
For others, the strength of Pancasila is in its adaptability in the face of changing times and adversityFor these people, Pancasila's 5 principles are adaptable. They don't actually seek to change them, but they believe that the principles could be adapted according to current needs so long as it doesn't go too far.
- Pancasila is a 'General Guideline'
Many of these people point to how Pancasila has continued to be national ideology even during the 'Old Order' Dictatorship, the "New Order" Dictatorship, and the Democratic "Reformation" era. Each of these times had differing interpretations of Pancasila, and it worked, giving each type of government legitimacy despite widely differing
For them, inflexibility means brittle. Brittle breaks.
They don't mind Sharia inspired bylaws so long as no one tries to rewrite the constitution or the Pancasila. For them, "Sharia-inspired but Pancasila compliant laws" are not a self-contradiction. In fact, they tend to also be tolerant of protestant or other religion-leaning laws in areas where the religious minority have a clear majority. Bible inspired bylaws in Protestant Papua for example.
This group is quite diverse, since there is great differences in how each individual thinks "Adaptable" ends and "Subversive" begins. What they do agree on though is that Pancasila is a living law that organically evolves in interpretation, and that such adaptability is a strength, not a weakness. The Pancasila does not set hard limits, it sets up negotiation parameters and allows room for diplomacy among internal factions.
Pancasila is either obsolete, or a gross injustice to begin with. It was a lie!These are the people the other two groups agree to team up against. Be they separatists, islamists, or hard-core atheists, they believe that the Pancasila either goes too far, or does too little, and it cannot be salvaged.
- Pancasila is a 'Flawed Compromise'
It must be replaced, they say.
While still somewhere in the grey area between this group and the second group, there are political parties who make it clear that their end goal is to alter the Constitution and Pancasila along with it. While bordering on traitorous, they are given some level of toleration since many otherwise violent individuals instead voice their opinion through peaceful voting. Furthermore, being included in national government apparatus naturally dilutes their ideology, and exposes them to the perils of governing. Unlike other Islamist factions in the Islamic world, Islamist factions in Indonesia cannot paint themselves as saints and perfect beings, as they've been exposed to be similar to everyone else - corruptible and incompetent.
_______________________
So, to be perfectly honest, Islam is imbedded into the culture of multiple areas of Indonesia, predominantly Kalimantan, Java, and Sumatera Island.
- Background
Altogether thats roughly 200 Million of Indonesia's 260 Million citizens. Of course, note that while the culture is heavily influenced by Islam in these areas, it is Islam that has been adapted to local conditions.
As it is, Javan Islamist thoughts are heavily influenced by the Hindu-Buddhist culture (Islamic Mysticism), Sumatera is influenced by Arabic Islam (Islamic Legalism), while Kalimantan is has a strong islamic identity as a balance of both (Islam Wasathiyyah/ 'Middle-Way' Islam). Sulawesi, on the other hand, has yet to settle on a strong Islamic school of teaching.
As such, there is strong support for nationalism based government even from Islamic Organizations, as an Islamic Nation is bound to have to pick a "Correct" form of Islam to promote. Chief among these supporters is the Nadhatul Ulama which considers itself a Champion of Islamic Nationalism, and its mandates the support of Pancasila in its organisational charter/constitution.
With 50 Million members, the Nadhatul Ulama is easily the largest Islamic Organization on Earth.
Furthermore, in truth, the bickering about Shariah and Pancasila is missing the bigger picture in the Consitutional Court Ruling: The ever shifting tides between the Central and Local Governments.
The current Indonesia is often considered a Quasi-Federation. In that it is a weird mix of Federalist structures blended in with centralism and decentralisation. Every single year, the tide shifts a bit one way or another.
For example, although the constitutional court ruled that the home ministry can't unilaterally repeal bylaws, local governments have voluntarily given up their right to set up local business permits in order to facilitate the OSS, One Stop Service of business permits set up byu the central government. Focusing solely on the Pancasila-Sharia dillema is missing the bigger problem.
Personally, I believe that some level of religious-inspired bylaws are tolerable. I fully agree with the banning of subversive organisations like Hizbut Tahrir, but I also believe that this increased flexibility in the implementation of Pancasila - along with decentralisation - is what has allowed less armed conflict to break out. Religion - including Islam is deeply rooted in indonesia, trying to eradicate it from public life is idiotic and will cause more harm than good, but the Pancasila is a good compromise that protects us from the worst of problems of theocracy where anything and everything can be justified by "BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO".
I feel that people who idolise "Progressivism" are seriously blind to the societal breakdown in such countries. 40%+ rates of divorce, suicides, drug abuse, breakdown of family, ect, ect. The list goes on and on. Indonesia might be less developed than Malaysia or Singapore, but our citizens have more political freedom than Singapore, and our laws are less racist than Malaysia. In fact our murder rate is among the lowest in the world, below even Australia or Germany!
I Agree with Auz when he says that people need to serious stop looking at real life through cliche's and black-and-white morality. Thats only possible in Hollywood movies and games.
For the basis of my thoughts, here are 2 videos:
Summary: Indonesia has always been divided between hard-core nationalists and hard core Islamists. The source of stability in the post reformation era is the emergence of a moderate faction that the allows the other two sides to negotiate governance through them.
Summary: The source of Indonesia's stability and progress is not liberal values, not islamism, and not rule of law. Its the ability to negotiate the slew of differences and the mental adaptability of its people and leaders.
@AUz @Nilgiri
