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India's state-run GRSE to supply two light frigates to Philippine Navy

I was part of System Integration and Business Transformation project of GRSE during 2010-11. I assumed solution architect role for this. Proud to be associated with them. During that time we developed a tool for them which will help them to project/simulate near actual cost during RFP process which will help them to quote accurately for both Cost+ scenario as well as Fixed price order scenario. Nice to know that it is giving result now :yahoo:.

Proud to be associated with the organization as a consultant
Good but stop giving any details you are exposing to many specifics. Just saying your were/are associated is good enough no need to give info on what appln does....etc.
 
Man no official source confirming the purchase yet. It's just that GRSE has come out as the lowest bidder.:what::what:

P28s chances are high as Philippines navy has agreed to buy Augusta Westland AW-159 for the frigate. So P28 almost looks like a winner in the contract....
 
Good but stop giving any details you are exposing to many specifics. Just saying your were/are associated is good enough no need to give info on what appln does....etc.
I was part of System Integration and Business Transformation project of GRSE during 2010-11. I assumed solution architect role for this. Proud to be associated with them. During that time we developed a tool for them which will help them to project/simulate near actual cost during RFP process which will help them to quote accurately for both Cost+ scenario as well as Fixed price order scenario. Nice to know that it is giving result now :yahoo:.

Proud to be associated with the organization as a consultant
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Carriers don't seem to be a huge priority for the Brazilians given their complete lack of competitors in the region.

Plus they are in serious economic straits right now, a new carrier is going to at the very bottom of their shopping list I'd have thought.


As for the LCA to Brazil, I wouldn't have thought it will happen now they have opted for the Gripen E/F.
What's their alternative for replacing their carrier and its aviation if and when? There is no carrier Gripen
 
What's their alternative for replacing their carrier and its aviation if and when? There is no carrier Gripen
I'm not too sure what the state of their current carrier is to be honest @Penguin how long does it have left?

+ Now Brazil is to make the Gripen at home I'm sure SAAB will offer them the "Sea Gripen" for their future needs.
 
@Abingdonboy The Phillipines tender result is out. A major milestone for Indian defence industry.
The Indian firm GRSE till now has only been declared the lowest bidder.

Post Qualification Checks and then negotiations for price and weapon systems will happen if PH is satisfied with post qualification.

Most unlikely, I still believe Philippines choose SK over India.
That will only happen if GRSE fails post qualification checks as it has been declared the lowest bidder.

WHOA
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An almost insignifcant deal (in dollar terms) BUT this is a LANDMARK moment for India's defence industry, specifcially its maritime defence sector. What is equally interesting about the PN deal is that GRSE presented a product wherein it selected third party foreign players (like Thales) to offer a customised package for the PN based on the proven Karmorta design as per the customer's requests. This is some pretty high end capabilties that GRSE has validated.


Time for bigger and better things:



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Who wants a couple? :azn:








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+ edit/P.S. A hell of a lot of credit for this win goes to the IN, their foresight and planning has created an industry all by itself that, whilst being in its nascent stages, has the potential to be world beating one day. Indian Army, are you watching?

The Indian shipyard has been only declared the lowest bidder. Post Qualification Checks are gonna happen. Concerns are over weaponry as PH wants weapons from a country with which it has defence agreements. So Russian CIWS and RBU6000 are out , adding NATO systems will spike the cost, which may create problems.
 
Good. Kamorta class has ASW capabilities of that of a heavy destroyer(like Kolkata class), Air defence capabilities of that of a light-medium frigates( once 16 sams are installed next year) and capabilities of an OPV in endurance and surface warfare( this is one area where it has been compromised but then It depends on need of the customer).
 
Good but stop giving any details you are exposing to many specifics. Just saying your were/are associated is good enough no need to give info on what appln does....etc.

Friend, what I told is purely commercial and business oriented. Nothing related to technology or confidential info
 
I'm not too sure what the state of their current carrier is to be honest @Penguin how long does it have left?

+ Now Brazil is to make the Gripen at home I'm sure SAAB will offer them the "Sea Gripen" for their future needs.

It (the vessel ) was under modernisation from 2005-10 . In sea trials again problems emerged and it was reported to be in repairs in 2014. In the same year Brazil said it wanted to build an aircraft carrier in Brazil with foreign assistance in 15 years. Further it was said at the time of purchase that the vessel will be thoroughly upgraded and will serve upto 2039. But with the present situation.... I doubt. But anyways the lifespan of vessel should be atleast another 15-20 years.
Further US and France , both of them have already offered to build Brazil an aircraft carrier. Back in ~2000s Spain too was offering to build one.

Coming to its fighter fleet , they bought 23 A4 airframes from Kuwait. And signed a contract with EMB, to initially modernise 12 airframes. They were to be repaired, receive new Radar, avionics , ECM and missiles. And the expected lifespan was 10-15 years. And the first one was delivered in 2015. So it must be around 2025-30 around which they would seek a new aircraft.

Brazilian Navy has till now said nothing about Sea Gripen.

As of November 2015 the ship is still under repairs. http://www.janes.com/article/55789/cracks-found-in-brazil-s-aircraft-carrier

Further the catapult of vessel is not strong enough to launch heavy aircrafts , even twin seater A4s.
 
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The true specs of the frigate offered to the PhN are unknown as of now but it is said to be based on the Kamorta class ASW corvettes (P-28) already in service with the Indian Navy:

INS-Kamorta-to-Be-Commissioned-on-Saturday2.jpg


INTRODUCTION
Anti-Submarine corvettes are a particular class of ships which are the unsung heroes in a Navy. They are overshadowed by frigates, destroyers and aircraft carriers and seldom get the attention they need from the public. Many navies lack this category of ships as they depend on bigger combatants to do the job. But the increasing threat of modern submarines has made Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) ships, a basic need for a powerful Navy. Different navies have different designations for their ASW ships. The US Navy has the Littoral Combat Ship, the Royal Navy depends on bigger ASW frigates, the Russian and Indian Navies uses ASW corvettes and so on. Each navy has different tactics and roles for their ASW ships, so here in this article, we will analyse the Kamorta class ASW corvette of the Indian Navy and see what it is capable of.

ORIGINS
Since 1968, ASW corvettes have been a part of the Indian Navy’s operational strategy. They procured 11 Petya class frigates from the Soviet Union between 1968-72 and designated them as Arnala class ASW corvettes. These 1150 ton ships were fast and good at ASW, but had the following drawbacks.

  • They lacked the range and endurance for blue water operations
  • Had poor quality hulls which needed major and frequent refits
  • Lacked the ability to carry an ASW helicopter
  • Had almost no self-defense capability
An Arnala Class corvette of the Indian Navy fires its RBU-2500 ASW rockets
These corvettes were restricted to escort role for missile boats which were also short-range vessels. They were also used to a limited degree as ocean-going escorts. The Indian Navy was happy with these ships in the following role until its transition into an aspiring blue water navy. They realized that these ASW corvettes needed to be replaced by a ship which overcame all the drawbacks of the existing class. They also needed a ship which would be equally effective in the littorals as well as in the deep oceans. This resulted in the development of the Kamorta class corvette. The Kamorta would offer the following performance enhancements over the Arnala class.

  • Thrice the displacement, resulting in more space for weapons and sensors
  • Provision of hangar and helipad for an ASW helicopter
  • Advanced radars and sonars
  • Long endurance, enabling it to operate in blue water
  • Ultra quiet propulsion and engines
  • High standard build quality

DESIGN


The Kamorta class has been designed for the sole purpose of hunting submarines. It has a displacement of 3400 tons, a length of 109 m and a beam of 13 m. These dimensions are comparable to that of a frigate as the Kamorta has been designed for blue water ops as well. The Kamorta is touted by the Indian Navy as having over 90% indigenous content. The steel and composites which have been used in construction are indigenously made along with a majority of the weapons and sensors. It is powered by 4 Pielstick diesel engines generating 3888 kW each, which drive 2 controllable pitch propellers via the gearboxes. Each ship has a crew of 150 sailors and 15 officers and a very ergonomic design which focuses on crew comfort.

It has the following advanced design features which make it a suitable platform for submarine hunting.

  • X-form hull with sloped superstructure sides which reduce radar cross-section and make it very stealthy.
  • Raft mounted gearbox and engines, which damp the vibrations and reduce the acoustic signature of the ship. This is important to remain undetected from hostile submarines.
  • Range of 6500+ km at 18 kts ( 33km/hr) which allows long deployments
  • Combined Diesel and Diesel (CODAD) propulsion for quiet and efficient running of the ship
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X-form hull to deflect radar
You can see from this that special emphasis has been laid on reducing the acoustic signature of the ship as much as possible. This is very important while it is searching for hostile submarines. The Kamorta needs to detect the submarines and engage them before it itself is detected and engaged.

SENSORS
The Kamorta is the first ship of the Indian Navy to be operationally deployed with an indigenously developed primary radar. The Revathi is a 3D radar operating in the S-band. It is a multi-role radar and is used for both surface and air search up to a distance of 200 km. It is designated as the Central Acquisition radar (CAR) as it is used to acquire aerial and surface targets before the fire control radar can direct the gunfire towards them. It will also act as a target acquisition radar for the VL-Mica surface to air missiles which will be fitted in the future. This missile doesn’t need a fire control radar as it has an active radar seeker in its nose which finds and locks onto targets on its own.



Revathi 3D CAR
The TMX EO Mk2 is an X-band fire control radar with secondary electro-optical and IR sensors for targeting. 2 such radars are fitted, one at the fore and another at the aft. The one at the fore provides fire control for the 76 mm gun and the one at the aft provides fire control for the Ak-630 guns.

They have an indigenous bow mounted sonar and an Atlas Elektronik towed array sonar. The bow sonar is the primary underwater sensor and the VLF towed array is used to detect submarines hiding under thermoclines in the water. The sonar gives targeting data for the ASW rocket launcher. The embarked helicopter will have its own dunking sonar and drop sonobouys as well.

WEAPONS
The Indian Navy needed a ship which has the armament of a 1200 ton corvette and the endurance of a 3400 ton frigate

The weapons suite comprises of a collection of systems to attack submarines and defend itself. The following weapons are present on the Kamorta

  • 1 x 76 mm Oto Melara Super Rapid Gun Mount (SRGM) for engaging surface and aerial threats up to 16 km away.
  • 2 x RBU-6000 ASW rocket launchers designated as IRL (Indigenous Rocket Launchers). Each launcher is 12 barreled and has a reload of 96 rockets under the deck. They are retained because of their hardkill ability and immunity against countermeasures. These rockets have a range of 4500 m and a shaped charge warhead which can be set to explode at a particular depth. It can punch a hole in the hull of a submarine or be used to defend against an incoming torpedo. The rocket, after it is fired, reaches the required location and falls in the water where it sinks until it reaches its target. Usually, 24 rockets with various warheads are ripple fired against the incoming target to achieve maximum kill rate.
  • 2 x Ak 630 Gatling guns are placed above the helicopter hangar. They are the Close in Weapons System (CIWS) and are used for last-ditch defense against anti-ship missiles. This 30 mm 6-barreled gun has a rate of fire of 5000 rounds per minute and can be used to engage aerial targets at a range of 3 km and surface targets at 4 km.
  • 533 mm torpedo tubes for launching heavyweight torpedoes. These have a maximum engagement range of around 20 km.
  • Space left for the installation of 16/32 VL-Mica Surface to Air Missiles. They will be procured under the category of SR-SAM and locally named as Maitri.
  • 1 helicopter hangar for housing an ASW helicopter. The S-70B Seahawk will be embarked on it in the future after the Indian Navy receives it. This will be an extremely vital weapon system as the helicopter can engage submarines several hundred kilometers form the ship.

The Kamorta is not under-armed, but over-sized
There is a widespread misconception that the Kamorta is poorly armed for a 3400 ton ship. But it is very wrong to look at things like that at face value without understanding the logic and naval doctrine for behind them. The Indian Navy needed a ship which has the armament of a 1200 ton corvette and the endurance of a 3400 ton frigate. Basically it is not under-armed, but over-sized. By 2017, it is expected to receive its SAM package consisting of 16-32 VL-Mica missiles which have a range of 15 km and an active seeker. This missile can intercept sea-skimming and supersonic cruise missiles and protect the Kamorta class from submarine launched cruise missiles.



A Kamorta Class Corvette under construction. Note the space where the SR-SAM will be installed in the future.
However, one question always arises. “Why build an ASW corvette with limited capabilities, when you can build a multi-role frigate which can do much more?”

The answer to this question can be obtained from observing the latest ships in the Indian Navy. The Shivalik class frigates and Kolkata class destroyers have an ASW specific equipment suite consisting of ASW rocket launchers, torpedo tubes, medium range guns, anti missile guns, sonars and surface to air missiles. What the Kamorta does is it just puts all the ASW and self-defense equipment from these 6400+ ton ships on a 3400 ton ship. This means that you now have a ship with the same ASW capabilities as a larger one and at a fraction of the total cost! So instead of sending a 1 billion $ destroyer for patrolling the oceans to hunt submarines, you can send a 250 million $ corvette to do the same job, just as effectively. This allows the Indian Navy to have 4 such corvettes for the price of 1 destroyer.

ROLE IN COMBAT
INS_Kamorta_%283%29.JPG


The main role of these ships will be to hunt the quiet submarines of Pakistan’s growing underwater fleet and the Chinese submarines which have been venturing into the Indian Ocean. 4 ships of this class have been ordered under Project 28 and a further 8 may follow on. There is no official information available regarding how the Kamorta class will be used in combat. That’s why i have presented the following ideas about what these ships will do during war and peace.

  • Carrier Escort

INS Vikramaditya being escorted by the frigate INS Talwar
In this role, it will accompany the aircraft carrier and be integrated into the carrier battle group (CBG). It could be used as the initial detection screen where it sails 50 km ahead of the CBG and searches for submarines waiting to ambush the carrier. It can be paired with friendly submarines and ASW aircraft like the P-8I to offer superior protection to the aircraft carrier. It may be integrated into the INS Vikramaditya CBG in the future along with the Talwar class frigates and Kolkata class destroyers.

  • Littoral Warfare

In this role, it will basically accompany the Kora and other classes of missile boats which serve in the Indian Navy during operations in shallow water. These missile boats lack any sort of ASw capability and will be totally dependent on the Kamortas for protection. A similar combination was used successfully by the Indian Navy in the 1971 war.

  • Surface Combatant Escort
In this role, they basically accompany a major surface combatant like a frigate or a destroyer. Here, the Kamorta will act as a mini frigate with the same ASW capabilities as the larger ship. Hence larger ships can be saved for more important tasks.

INS%20Kamorta%20and%20Satpura.JPG

INS Kamorta with the frigate INS Satpura
  • Submarine Shadowing
Instead of sending a 7000 ton destroyer just to shadow an enemy submarine, a Kamorta class corvette does the same job. It will be more economical than sending a larger ship and the destroyers can be used for more important tasks. They will be used in peace and war to trail hostile submarines and destroy them if needed. These ships will be networked with ASW aircraft for more efficient tracking and detection of submarines.


CONCLUSION



The Kamorta class are future proof and will remain as front line warships for several decades. The total number of ships in the class may end up being 12 if the Indian Navy goes for a follow on order of 8 more ships. These ships will be vital for patrolling Indian and International waters and keeping shipping lanes free from hostile submarines. Constant upgrades in the future will keep them in top fighting condition and give a headache to hostile submarines.


https://defencyclopedia.com/2015/09...sis-of-indias-deadly-anti-submarine-corvette/
Don't do that buddy. That is not Kamorta class but rather it's P28 only(INS Kamorta). If you have really check the wepons load of this class, check third boat onward. There is hell lot of difference.

what is the price of Karmota in terms of USD ?
We can offer it in 150 to 180 million dollars but I will have to cross check with my source.

is it possible that price might come to half ?
Yes it's possible.

I know , what i am saying is new Karmata class will cost at least $200million (half of previous price)
Now Philippines is spending $160.5 million, surely downgrade version of Karmata class.
That is because that includes all advanced warfare equipment included. bARAK 8 full system with logistics cost 25 millions alone. So basic hull is pretty much possible under 80-85 millions that too Including advanced stealth measures. Only condition is its core system should not be mated be with Chinese systems as those have hidden malewares to penetrate and theft of technical data without alerting the operator country.
 
I'm not too sure what the state of their current carrier is to be honest @Penguin how long does it have left?

+ Now Brazil is to make the Gripen at home I'm sure SAAB will offer them the "Sea Gripen" for their future needs.
First commissioned 15 July 1963, that makes her 53 years old. She was acquired 2001. She suffered an engine room explosion and fire in 2004 and spent 2005-2010 in 'extended maintenance'. She suffered another major fire in 2012 and in 2014 she was still undergoing repairs. From 2015, the aircraft carrier will undergo a PMM (Modernization Program Environment) planned to last until 2019. With this modernization, the ship will have its extended life for another 20 years until 2039. By that time, she'll ....76. (But who see's her history can't help but wonder if she'll survive that long)

INS Vikrant decommed after 36 years, but was kept around as (potential) museumpiece for another 17 yeas before finally being scrapped, at which time she was 53 years old. That is, if you not count the period 1946-1961 after she got launched but construction was halted. Include that and she was technically almost 68 at the time of her scrapping.

INS Viraat, scheduled to finally decommisison June 2016, is 57.

Gripen for Brazil: On December 18, 2013, after more than ten years of discussion, President Dilma Rousseff decided to purchase these fighter jets to the FAB. The package 36 aircraft would cost $ 4.5 billion. The new aircraft would be assembled in Brazil from the fifth unit, with six other countries participaiting in the provision of the various components. In October 2014, the deal was formally signed the Saab's contract with the Brazilian government. The supply would be 28 units of the Gripen NG single seater and 8 two seaters. The transaction amount was around US $ 5.4 billion (R $ 13.4 billion reais), an increase of one billion. The increase was justified by technical components that the Brazilian military demanded. [note: one can wonder what those are, but likely include use of Brazilian made weaponry such as MAR-1 ARM and MAA-1A/B Piranha SRAAM), possibly this could include provisions for a carrier version down the line]. About 15 of these aircraft would be assembled in Brazil, but Brazilian would be involved in all stages of the construction of 36 fighters.
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAS_39_Gripen

Don't do that buddy. That is not Kamorta class but rather it's P28 only(INS Kamorta). If you have really check the wepons load of this class, check third boat onward. There is hell lot of difference.
From what I gather from the description of individual ship in wiki, there is only mention of 3M54 (Club) AShm in the third ship. Since that is the only vessel where this is mentioned, and others consistently do no list any AShm, I'm consireding that an incorrect wiki entry untill such time as I see a picture which actually proves that third ship - INS Kiltan - has AShM.

For SAM, if listed at all, it is listed as 16 Barak (2x8), possibly 2x16, and accompanied by the remark "fitted for but not with". I'm taking this to mean the original Barak, not Barak 8. Alternative, the class been said to be slated to receive SR-SAM / Maitri. That is a development from the French MICA.
 

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