India's Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT)

[AUz]

Nice compact design with appropriate armor cover (front, sides) and decent weight category. Funny thing is the inclusion of 125mm gun replacing the home made rifled 120mm gun.

Overall, this design is much better than arjunxx

Any such program planned for our land forces?

 

[holysaturn]

Exactly.


Yeah,heard it from Kunal.He said DRDO was looking to shift a version of the Cockpit NG with full screen digital FCS with big touch screen LCDs for the gunner and commander's stations for increased situational awareness.I also heard that there is talks about developing a 2 men crew version with unmanned turret,a 140mm smooth barrel gun and very thick armor over glacis plate at reduced weight of 40-45 ton (due to weight saved from usage of the smaller unmanned turret).Seems like DRDO is trying to keep all the options open since they are not sure what the Army is gonna ask for.

Neither the DRDO nor the Army know how future threats will look like and the stagnation of armour technology even in developed countries is making the army think before giving a finalised SQR.They don't have a model to base their design on as not many future tank designs are in the making, this was not the case when the Arjun started when proven designs were already in service and an SQR was relatively easy to make.

 

[Omega007]

125mm smoothbore will be homemade. The Indian T-90s use ARDE designed OFB made smoothbores after Russia denied the technology. This was adopted for interoperability as huge amounts of T-90 ammunition that will be available and also 125mm ammo are better available for import than 120mm rifled ammo.

There is near 100% chance of a 125mm smooth barrel gun not being used on FMBT since they have almost zero growth potential and the 120 mm APFSDS rounds that are available in international market are far better compared to the available 125mm ones.Most probably an 120mm smooth barrel gun will be developed for the FMBT if they decide to go for the manned turret.
And as for the bold part,actually there isn't even a single option available for type of single piece 120mm rifled gun's ammo,used with Arjun, in the international market.Since the Centurions make use of three piece ammo and even those have gone out of production if my memory serves me correct!!

Neither the DRDO nor the Army know how future threats will look like and the stagnation of armour technology even in developed countries is making the army think before giving a finalised SQR.They don't have a model to base their design on as not many future tank designs are in the making, this was not the case when the Arjun started when proven designs were already in service and an SQR was relatively easy to make.

It's not that hard actually if you think about it!!Perhaps they are waiting for the Armata to roll out first.

Any such program planned for our land forces?

What about your AK 2 project??

 

[AUz]

What about your AK 2 project??

Al Khalid-2 is there..will come online in coming years (as of now, forces are getting upgraded Al Khalid which is called Al Khalid-1, which is almost as good as your Arjun-II in firepower and mobility, with very good armor as well)...

But I'd love to see Pakistan's own FMBT program, as all major nations are coming up with it...

Probably Turkey's Altay will help Pakistan in some regards...

 

[Omega007]

Al Khalid-2 is there..will come online in coming years (as of now, forces are getting upgraded Al Khalid which is called Al Khalid-1, which is almost as good as your Arjun-II in firepower and mobility, with very good armor as well)...

But I'd love to see Pakistan's own FMBT program, as all major nations are coming up with it...

Probably Turkey's Altay will help Pakistan in some regards...

Altay is a real beaut,especially the front turret!!But what I was trying to say is that perhaps AK II could morph into your FMBT.

 

[holysaturn]

There is near 100% chance of a 125mm smooth barrel gun not being used on FMBT since they have almost zero growth potential and the 120 mm APFSDS rounds that are available in international market are far better compared to the available 125mm ones.Most probably an 120mm smooth barrel gun will be developed for the FMBT if they decide to go for the manned turret.
And as for the bold part,actually there isn't even a single option available for type of single piece 120mm rifled gun's ammo,used with Arjun, in the international market.Since the Centurions make use of three piece ammo and even those have gone out of production if my memory serves me correct!!



It's not that hard actually if you think about it!!Perhaps they are waiting for the Armata to roll out first.

Yes but assuming future ammunition will be designed and made in India, it is logical to go for 125mm smoothebore as it will also benefit the T-90 considering they will be in the Armoured Corps beyond 2040.
The armata is proving to be expensive even for the Russians. Russian Army thinks it might be better off buying improved T-90 even if it enters service it might not in large numbers as there is no major armoured threat these days.
Russia's T-14 Armata Tank May Feature a Fatal Flaw

 

[Omega007]

Yes but assuming future ammunition will be designed and made in India, it is logical to go for 125mm smoothebore as it will also benefit the T-90 considering they will be in the Armoured Corps beyond 2040.
The armata is proving to be expensive even for the Russians. Russian Army thinks it might be better off buying improved T-90 even if it enters service it might not in large numbers as there is no major armoured threat these days.
Russia's T-14 Armata Tank May Feature a Fatal Flaw

Nah mate,no matter what one might say in favor of 125 mm L 52 guns,it simply won't make the cut for a future battle field.Besides,better 120 mm ammo for smooth barrel guns are more readily available and the single piece ammo are also easier and simpler to produce and handle compared to the cumbersome 2 piece 125mm ones,which provide inferior penetration anyway due to their shorter perpetrators.You see, the disadvantages of the 125mm guns far outweigh any possible advantage of commonality and that's why I think DRDO and Army would be better off not going for them.

 

[holysaturn]

Nah mate,no matter what one might say in favor of 125 mm L 52 guns,it simply won't make the cut for a future battle field.Besides,better 120 mm ammo for smooth barrel guns are more readily available and the single piece ammo are also easier and simpler to produce and handle compared to the cumbersome 2 piece 125mm ones,which provide inferior penetration anyway due to their shorter perpetrators.You see, the disadvantages of the 125mm guns far outweigh any possible advantage of commonality and that's why I think DRDO and Army would be better off not going for them.

I agree that the 120mm german and Israeli rounds are much better than the best 125mm round that is the Russian round. Western long rod penetrators are mighty lethal even at long ranges but it is for the army and the DRDO to decide on the trade offs, we can only wait and see.

 

[GURU DUTT]

R&D on FMBT should / will go alongside R&D on A MK3 and weare fulli capable for it but most liekli the 120MM rifelled gun will be there on FMBT aswell and instead of 4 there will be 3 crew member or we just mightsee a toatalli automated & unmanned gun turret like many new MBTs in R&D phase world over + there can be enigne in front like israeli merkawas

 

[Omega007]

I agree that the 120mm german and Israeli rounds are much better than the best 125mm round that is the Russian round. Western long rod penetrators are mighty lethal even at long ranges but it is for the army and the DRDO to decide on the trade offs, we can only wait and see.

Of course but only thing is that there are no trade offs in favor of the 125mm guns..............none at all.And it is almost certain that Army will settle either for a 120mm (for the manned turret) or a 140mm smooth barrel gun design for its FMBT.

R&D on FMBT should / will go alongside R&D on A MK3 and weare fulli capable for it but most liekli the 120MM rifelled gun will be there on FMBT aswell and instead of 4 there will be 3 crew member or we just mightsee a toatalli automated & unmanned gun turret like many new MBTs in R&D phase world over + there can be enigne in front like israeli merkawas

No way,not even one chance in a million!!You could mark my words for it if you want to!!There is simply no sense in retaining the rifled guns since it's thing of past when HESH used to be a viable anti tank round,when tanks used to be armored with RHA only.But with the advent of various exotic composite armors,the HESH has ceased to be an effective anti tank round and therefore the rifled guns have also lost their edge.

 

[sancho]

Similar to the FICV, it comes under the "make" category.

Is that cleared, any source? Wouldn't that mean that they selected one design and moved away from the FICV competition, since the tender included available foreign design, licence produced by an Indain partner.

125mm L52 and 4 men crew despite the autoloader,doesn't make much of a sense now,does it??!!I

Exactly, a Tank EX proposal based on the Arjun MK2 would offer 90% of what is shown for the FMBT, so how does this justify all the delays and costs for a complete new development?

 

[Omega007]

Exactly, a Tank EX proposal based on the Arjun MK2 would offer 90% of what is shown for the FMBT, so how does this justify all the delays and costs for a complete new development?

Ask the Army bro!!The Tank Ex with a 120mm smooth barrel gun would have been (actually still is) the ideal upgrade for the 2000+ numbers of T 72M1 'monkey models' to turn into modern day 3rd generation MBTs.That's actually a good thing DRDO came up with on its own initiative,but like many other project,it was killed in its inception.Really man,after seeing the recent CAG report,I have lost respect for the IA top brass.

 

[sancho]

Ask the Army bro!!The Tank Ex with a 120mm smooth barrel gun would have been (actually still is) the ideal upgrade

I'm not talking about an upgrade, but why doesn't DRDO propose a new Tank Ex (MK2) based on the T90 chassis that we licence produce and the Arjun MK2 turret, which we also will produce? Weight should be below Arjun MK1, but with many of the improvements of the MK2 and as I said, if you look at the opening post and the given capabilities of the FMBT, most of that could be done by a new Tank EX (MK2) if you want today and not only in 10 years or so.

 

[Omega007]

I'm not talking about an upgrade, but why doesn't DRDO propose a new Tank Ex (MK2) based on the T90 chassis that we licence produce and the Arjun MK2 turret, which we also will produce? Weight should be below Arjun MK1, but with many of the improvements of the MK2 and as I said, if you look at the opening post and the given capabilities of the FMBT, most of that could be done by a new Tank EX (MK2) if you want today and not only in 10 years or so.

I know what you had said,I was just giving you an example of the prevailing mindset of some top Indian Army decision makers about home grown systems!!Just look at the 185mm towed artillery project or the Tank Ex - both of them were developed and offered by DRDO on their own initiative and were clearly more capable than imported systems!!But what happened - army didn't even agree to put them into user trials citing a plethora of excuses like 'we didn't ask for it blah blah...........'.So as you can see,it doesn't work like what you are suggesting.Army comes up with their GSQR and then DRDO has to deliver on them,that's how shit works here.So even if DRDO did come up with a Tank Ex MkII as you are suggesting,there would be more chances of Army rejecting it without putting it into trials than accepting it as their FMBT!!

 

[sancho]

the Tank Ex - both of them were developed and offered by DRDO on their own initiative and were clearly more capable than imported systems!!But what happened...So even if DRDO did come up with a Tank Ex MkII as you are suggesting,there would be more chances of Army rejecting it without putting it into trials than accepting it as their FMBT!!

The earlier Tank Ex offer had the problem that it was just an upgrade and such a considerable change obviously is costlier, than upgrading the T72s with some new systems. Not to mention that the Arjun MK1 turret had many things that were not on par with the requirements either, so not going for that proposal is understandable. But today we have the MK2 upgrades according to IA's requirements, we have the T90 chassis, which fulfills IA's need for all areas in and around India, again as IA requires, so is there a better chance for DRDO to stick it into IA's face today, than offering an Tank EX MK2?
FMBT is again a DRDO proposal, because IA can't use the Arjun MK2 in all areas, IA obviously is more bullish on the earlier, but as explained above, if DRDO would offer the upgraded Tank Ex now, especially to the government / MoD, IA will have trouble to reject it, if it actually is exactly what they need for a large production increase of at least half of the Arjun MK2.