India's future launch vehicle projects at a glance: VSSC director

[amardeep mishra]

Apples and oranges. India cant launch 5 mt sats atm. Its all in the future.

Hi @saltyashell
5t payload capacity is now very much within the reach of ISRO. As far as the credible engineering evidences go, ISRO can very easily optimize the GSLV mk3 from 4t to 5t without even using SCE-- these changes involve structural modifications, using lighter materials etc etc. This can be done much earlier than you're expecting. SCE, however will take 2-3 more years for any kind of test trial.

 

[$@rJen]

Mostly wrong.
Telecom sats in GEO are getting even heavier. Even india uses ESA for launching its 5 mt sats , even this year.
The profits in small and micro sats are neglegible and dont justify the investment in a space agency.
Nasaspaceflight is a good forum.Try it.

WOw....Really
tell me when did ISRO developed a Sat with 5 ton ??? i never knew
The heavier ones are communication sats, they all are below 4 ton, Due to complications with GSLV, isro used European Agency. And i don't think isro used Ariane this year to launch, and we're not going to use them for a long time... the scheduled ones this year is going to be launched with GSLV mk3.

And as pointed out yes... the Satilites are becoming lighter due to light weight materials used

 

[saltyashell]

Hi @saltyashell
5t payload capacity is now very much within the reach of ISRO. As far as the credible engineering evidences go, ISRO can very easily optimize the GSLV mk3 from 4t to 5t without even using SCE-- these changes involve structural modifications, using lighter materials etc etc. This can be done much earlier than you're expecting. SCE, however will take 2-3 more years for any kind of test trial.

Their is no easily in rockets. Look at the trouble india had with cryogenic engines once russia and usa backed out.
Even usa before spacex was dependent on russian engines for its launches , as their local rockets are too expensive by a factor of 2 to 3.
India is at around 3.5 t with its cryogenic engine , if i remember correctly and now wants to move to 5 t with a semi cryogenic engine which has not been built yet.
My point is if india cant launch significantly cheaper , the large american market will be captured on financial basis by spacex. And i wont even touch the non-eco trump factor.

3. Antrix, the commercial arm of ISRO is actually a profit making organization

Link that its profitable ?

tell me when did ISRO developed a Sat with 5 ton ??

Insat11. Payload includes fuel weight of satellite.

And no complications, india atm has no ready launcher for above 4 t.

 

[Shamsher1990]

Link that its profitable ?

http://www.antrix.co.in/sites/default/files/article-attachments/ANNUALREPORT-2016-17-English.pdf

Here is their annual report. Please refer to page 2.

Insat11. Payload includes fuel weight of satellite.

Are you sure? I cann't find any sat called INSAT-11. There is a GSAT-11 which is planned to be launched. It will be 5 tonnes alright and will be launched by ESA. It is however slated to be last satellite to be launched outside of India.

 

[saltyashell]

http://www.antrix.co.in/sites/default/files/article-attachments/ANNUALREPORT-2016-17-English.pdf

Here is their annual report. Please refer to page 2.


Are you sure? I cann't find any sat called INSAT-11. There is a GSAT-11 which is planned to be launched. It will be 5 tonnes alright and will be launched by ESA. It is however slated to be last satellite to be launched outside of India.

Are you claiming that the isro and antrix are the same ?
Because i see a 1.0 b usd budget for isro while wiki has a total 280 m usd as revenue ?

 

[Shamsher1990]

Are you claiming that the isro and antrix are the same ?
Because i see a 1.3 b usd budget for isro while wiki has a total 3

Please read the annual report. Antrix is 100 % owned by Department of Space, Govt of India.

ISRO is R&D organization while Antrix is a commercial PSU.

Meaning, ISRO is not supposed to have profit since it is a cost centre of Govt of India, not a profit oriented orgranization. While Antrix is like any other company. Only owned by GoI.

Antrix commercializes research done by ISRO.

Update : Also read my post regarding Ariannespace and ESA, just below.

 

[saltyashell]

Please read the annual report. Antrix is 100 % owned by Department of Space, Govt of India.

ISRO is R&D organization while Antrix is a commercial PSU.

Meaning, ISRO is not supposed to have profit since it is a cost centre of Govt of India, not a profit oriented orgranization. While Antrix is like any other company. Only owned by GoI.

So can we agree isro is not a profitable entity as its aims are not commercial but r&d and close this argument ?

 

[$@rJen]

Insat11. Payload includes fuel weight of satellite.

And no complications, india atm has no ready launcher for above 4 t.

that;s the upcoming Satilite right,

Like i said we can carry anything below 4 ton
abd yes there were complications, now its been resolved so GSLV mk3 will carry 2 Gsat satellites this year with the payload of 3,700+ each.... the same sats in this categories were used to launch by Europeans now upto 4 tons will be launched by ISRO till the next vehicle is perfected

 

[Shamsher1990]

So can we agree isro is not a profitable entity as its aims are not commercial but r&d and close this argument ?

With a caveat that GoI profitably commercializes the R&D done by ISRO via Antrix. And this does not include the benefits of launching satellites cheaply inhouse paid in INR and not in USD.

BTW cost of launching by Antrix is about 60% of that one ESA. For 3.5 - 4.0 tonne payload.

All in all, for India atleast in-country investment in space research has been beneficial.

And i doubt any agency is in a profit except for the ESA.

Correction. Its not ESA but Arianespace.
ESA is more analogous to ISRO with aim to ensure european access to space. Commerical success is note even their goal.

Arianespace is commerical marketing company for ESA.

And BTW, its net operating income is a whooping.... 3 million euros. (http://www.arianespace.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Annual-Report-2014-EN.pdf, this was the last annual report they ever published.)

For a comparison, before tax Antrix -- analogous arm for ISRO-- has a net operating income (profit before tax or depreciation) INR 335.16 carore or 3,351,600,000.00 OR 48.6 million dollars in current exchange rate.

I leave it to you to decide which is more profitable.

 

[amardeep mishra]

India is at around 3.5 t with its cryogenic engine , if i remember correctly and now wants to move to 5 t with a semi cryogenic engine which has not been built yet.

Sorry but either your information is inaccurate or you're ignoring something. The max payload capacity of GSLV MK3 as of now is 4t+, however dont expect them to demonstrate the full capability in first few launches. What I was alluding to was that, with structural modifications and optimization they can push the payload to 5t as was always the plan. It is very similar to how they initially started off with 2t for GSLV MK2, gradually they increased the payload to 2.5t(as it is now) and there are plans to further optimize it and push it all the way to 3t.
Similarly you'll see that with structural modification and optimization alone, MK3 can place a 5t sat in orbit. Also a point to note is that designers generally take higher margin of safety everywhere and that results in not so optimum design. Often this is overweight. However with optimization and structural modification-- not so unknown to other vehicles that ISRO has designed-- GSLV MK3 can place a 5t in orbit. This will not require a whole new class of engine. This is solely dependent on their ability to optimize the design.

 

[K210]

India is at around 3.5 t with its cryogenic engine , if i remember correctly and now wants to move to 5 t with a semi cryogenic engine which has not been built yet.

Current GTO payload capability of MK3 is currently 4 ton not 3.5ton. Semi cryo engine development is all but complete all that remains is tests and that will start as soon as test facility is ready. By the way final GTO capability of MK3 will be around 6.5 ton - 7 ton not 5 ton. 5 Ton can be achieved just by small improvements here and there such as implementation of high thrust vikas engines on L110 core stage and stretching the C-25 upper stage to increase burn time.