Indian Navy commissions 1st ALH Dhruv helicopter squadron at Southern Command

[ptltejas]

More like Nag with uranium glued at front

Neither is possible. neither helicop nor the small range Nag missile. "Critical mass" denied for it.

 

[SirHatesALot]

Neither is possible. neither helicop nor the small range Nag missile. "Critical mass" denied for it.

Damn buddy don't reply to anything on the net

 

[Capt.Popeye]

No further weight reduction is possible, albeit a slight increase in the baseline Shakti's output is on the cards for the LUH. Don't compare ballistic missiles to hepters, its an apt example of comparing apples and oranges and ergo just as futile...weight shaving on the Agni occurred through a whole different article (A-4) and that too in a completely unrelated technical area as far as hepters are concerned.

@BLACKGOLD Sling me and @Capt.Popeye on either side- we'll make short work of the enemy, what say you captain?

If "Radioactive Fallout" is the only criterion; then I hope to be equal to the task while you go on and Nuke Naswaristan !

That said; not too much weight can be shaved off from the ALH; unless the co-pilot and his seat are removed! Of course power can be augmented.

On another note: the IN is slowly absorbing the Dhruv in increasing numbers; albeit in a shore-based role given the lack of automatic folding rotors. But nevertheless it will help to sustain the rotor-craft numbers at least for some time.

 

[Dillinger]

If "Radioactive Fallout" is the only criterion; then I hope to be equal to the task while you go on and Nuke Naswaristan !

That said; not too much weight can be shaved off from the ALH; unless the co-pilot and his seat are removed! Of course power can be augmented.

On another note: the IN is slowly absorbing the Dhruv in increasing numbers; albeit in a shore-based role given the lack of automatic folding rotors. But nevertheless it will help to sustain the rotor-craft numbers at least for some time.

Another lesson to be learnt here. Had the MoD forecast accurately the number of Dhruvs which would be operational and changed its vendor selection policy (after every batch procurement there is a re-tendering, that along with the inability to understand that specialized equipment necessitates grooming single suppliers rather than avoiding single vendor scenarios has ensured that various components which we designed ourselves- like the MGB of the helos- have to be then contracted out for fabrication) and ensured that a captive supply chain could have been developed. Alas the babus make me a sad Dilli.

 

[duhastmish]

Welldone this is an amazing machine. Can bet your life on it. This is start I hope number built increases rapidly.

 

[kaykay]

@Capt.Popeye @Dillinger how many Dhruvs will navy buy?? They had issues with dhruvs right??

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@Capt.Popeye @Dillinger how many Dhruvs will navy buy?? They had issues with dhruvs right??

I've no idea how many Dhruvs the IN will buy. In the first place; the IN insisted that the Dhruv should have auto-folding rotor blades since its more or less a rule that IN Helos must be able to operate either from ship-board and/or from ashore. Because of the Dhruv's hinge-less rotors that was not possible; though it fulfils the other present IN conditions of being twin-engined and FADEC. So the IN will have to be able to get HAL to sort out that sticking point for Dhruv to operate from ships like Destroyers, Frigates and Corvettes.

The other point is that the Dhruv falls in a weight category between Light Helos like the Chetak and Heavier ones like Sea Kings. IN seems to have optimised their weight/payload criteria wrt to those Helos. So, in that case will the IN look at Dhruvs in large numbers?

But on the other hand the Chetaks are well past their prime; being single engined is a huge handicap for maritime operation----there is just no safety redundancy. The fact that the Chetaks have been laboring on for so long is a tribute to some excellent design features including a very reliable power-plant all from the 1960s; but thats it, its obsolete now.

Finally; how many Druvs can HAL turn out for the IN from their existing production line. Their line is pretty much swamped by orders from IA (as both Dhruv and Rudra) and then the IAF too has its requirements. Though it must be conceded that HAL is setting up another production line for these Helos in Bidar or some-place there. I do think that the Dhruv and its variants are better suited for land-based operations, e.g. its service ceiling is a great plus on land; the Navy does not need that kind of performance.

I think that all of these issues need to be factored in. IMO, the Dhruvs will see limited use with the IN and mostly as a shore-based MR/SAR aircraft platform. Is that also the IN's view ?

 

[sancho]

Navy's induction of new platform is going very smoothly while IAF n Army are suffering

Not really, it took them years to finally get these few Dhruvs and they are ordering more foreign helicopters instead of focusin

In the first place; the IN insisted that the Dhruv should have auto-folding rotor blades since its more or less a rule that IN Helos must be able to operate either from ship-board and/or from ashore.

Which is the real problem, while it's not really a necessity for helicopters that are used from shore bases in SAR roles, nor did most of the corvetts, patrol ships or even older destroyers had hangars to use helicopters with folding rotors. Even the use on INS Viraat would had been possible for years, which wouldn't had necessarily required an auto folding system, so if they really wanted, they could had got more naval Dhruvs and far earlier.


The other point is that the Dhruv falls in a weight category between Light Helos like the Chetak and Heavier ones like Sea Kings. IN seems to have optimised their weight/payload criteria wrt to those Helos. So, in that case will the IN look at Dhruvs in large numbers?

The 56 x LUH that they are looking at, are in Dhruvs class:

Dhruv - 2,502 kg
Bell 429 - 1,925 kg
EC Panther - 2,380 kg
AW 139 - 3,622 kg
S76 - 3,177 kg


So that is no issue either, it's just a lack of support or to compromise on minor issues like the folding rotors (which imo should still be upgradeable anyway).

 

[Abingdonboy]

It's good news that the IN is inducting such advanced assets for SAR roles- this is good for the entire nation of India.

However not only should this role fall to the ICG ideally, but I don't think the Dhruv is the best asset for shore-based SAR roles given its range limitations. You really need a long-range Medium class helo for this sort of mission (ie S-92,AW-101, S-70 etc) ideally.


I'd like to see pics of this:

like heliborne operations, and armed patrol

 

[Capt.Popeye]

It's good news that the IN is inducting such advanced assets for SAR roles- this is good for the entire nation of India.

However not only should this role fall to the ICG ideally, but I don't think the Dhruv is the best asset for shore-based SAR roles given its range limitations. You really need a long-range Medium class helo for this sort of mission (ie S-92,AW-101, S-70 etc) ideally.


I'd like to see pics of this:

Agreed on all of the above points; the Dhruv is just a "stop-gap" Helo for the IN. It does not even seem to meet all the requirements of the IN.
While it does that for the ICG, which is why the ICG is not averse to acquiring the Dhruvs, while IN is.

 

[janon]

@Capt.Popeye : Why are single engined helicopters unsafe for maritime roles in particular? I mean, engine failure would be equally catastrophic for land based ops as well, right? Since the pilots/crew can't eject in either case...

 

[sancho]

While it does that for the ICG, which is why the ICG is not averse to acquiring the Dhruvs, while IN is.

Actually they are, they also don't go for more Dhruvs and just like IN are looking for foreign light and medium class naval helicopters. I think their complains however are mainly about maintenance issues wrt to HAL I guess, but that again is just an issue that could be dealt and not a reason not to support indigenous helicopters.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Capt.Popeye : Why are single engined helicopters unsafe for maritime roles in particular? I mean, engine failure would be equally catastrophic for land based ops as well, right? Since the pilots/crew can't eject in either case...

Think about it. 2 engines build an added layer of redundancy into the system. If a single-engined helo loses power over land it can switch to auto-rotation and find a suitable place to land. If this happens over water- were is a suitable place to land? More than likely they'll have to ditch and this is clearly a pretty grim prospect.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@Capt.Popeye : Why are single engined helicopters unsafe for maritime roles in particular? I mean, engine failure would be equally catastrophic for land based ops as well, right? Since the pilots/crew can't eject in either case...

In general terms; any episode of engine failure for rotorcraft is likely to be disastrous.
And as @Abingdonboy has just explained; there is a factor of redundandant safety built into a twin-engined system. While auto-rotation is a mitigative manuever in this case its efficiency is limited by considerations of air-speed and altitude above GL (apart from considerations of LW and Density Altitude primarily). Over water; that gets even more difficult. On land a Helo can auto-rotate and some-how return to terra firma. On water auto-rotating down to the surface will not solve the problem; it gets more difficult then-----how do the Pilot(s) and other personnel safely make eggress from the ditched aircraft before being drowned !
That is the reason why Helos operating over water were mandated to have twin-engines years ago; while contemporary thinking desires twin-engines also for Helicopters operating over Land in increasing numbers.

 

[illusion8]

No further weight reduction is possible, albeit a slight increase in the baseline Shakti's output is on the cards for the LUH. Don't compare ballistic missiles to hepters, its an apt example of comparing apples and oranges and ergo just as futile...weight shaving on the Agni occurred through a whole different article (A-4) and that too in a completely unrelated technical area as far as hepters are concerned.

@BLACKGOLD Sling me and @Capt.Popeye on either side- we'll make short work of the enemy, what say you captain?

get them as pilots = auto weight reduction.