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Indian Mujahid

Abisafyan

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They can't live who can't die

If the "Indian Mujahid" is not a myth of RAW, then it is the only way for Indian Muslims to live in India!!!
Muslims have never been let to live by the non-Muslims without a high 'price' throughout the history - thus those Muslims who can't pay the 'price' they must quit the planet!!! Second Pakistan is the only resort for Indian Muslims!!!
 
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The social and current affairs section of ths forum there is "Book Review" thread in which a review of Mushirul Hassan's new work entitled: " Living with Secularism: Destiny of India's Muslims" is posted -- the follwoing is suggested:

"[The following states have Muslim minorities as indicated by percentages: Assam (28 percent), Kerala (23 percent) West Bengal (23 percent), Uttar Pradesh (17.3 percent), Bihar (16 percent) and Karnataka (16 percent). Needless to say the largest number live in the UP where the total population is more than that of Pakistan.]"

Perhaps if a movement can be mounted within the Muslims of India to alter this demographic and begin moving to the states that border Pakistan, the plight of the Indian Muslim will be better - it is unreasonable to expect the kindsof attitudes that will only gain strength in India will help the Indian Muslim if they are so distant from the border of Pakistan.

The movement to move to the border states need not be anti-india, it need not be militant, but an expression of a free peoples to exercise their right to freedom of movment and their right to freedom of association; India does allow this does it not?
 
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The social and current affairs section of ths forum there is "Book Review" thread in which a review of Mushirul Hassan's new work entitled: " Living with Secularism: Destiny of India's Muslims" is posted -- the follwoing is suggested:

"[The following states have Muslim minorities as indicated by percentages: Assam (28 percent), Kerala (23 percent) West Bengal (23 percent), Uttar Pradesh (17.3 percent), Bihar (16 percent) and Karnataka (16 percent). Needless to say the largest number live in the UP where the total population is more than that of Pakistan.]"

Perhaps if a movement can be mounted within the Muslims of India to alter this demographic and begin moving to the states that border Pakistan, the plight of the Indian Muslim will be better - it is unreasonable to expect the kindsof attitudes that will only gain strength in India will help the Indian Muslim if they are so distant from the border of Pakistan.

The movement to move to the border states need not be anti-india, it need not be militant, but an expression of a free peoples to exercise their right to freedom of movment and their right to freedom of association; India does allow this does it not?

Why? What purpose will this serve?
 
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The closer they are to Pakistan the safer they will be. they can express both their Hindustaniness and their Muslim faith and ethic. They shall not cease to be Hindustani, and they shall be safe, in fact the community of Muslims in all subcontinent will be safer as will the non-Muslims.

The Hindustani Muslim may some day form majorities or significant minorities in the states that border Pakistan to one day ensure no power or powers can negatively effect the peace they and Pakistan can build in the area.

I do not see down sides i this proposal, do you? Jewry did this successfully and over more than 100 years, why not learn from this endeavour and implement a more successful model?
 
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The closer they are to Pakistan the safer they will be. they can express both their Hindustaniness and their Muslim faith and ethic. They shall not cease to be Hindustani, and they shall be safe, in fact the community of Muslims in all subcontinent will be safer as will the non-Muslims.

Muse, I must say I am appalled at your total ignorance about Indian muslims.
Do you recognize the differences in culture between a Keralite muslim, and Assamese muslim and a muslims from UP?
Let me give you an example: A muslim from Kerala speaks Malayalam, wears a lungi and celebrates Pongal with his fellow Malyalees. He has very little in common with a muslim from UP or Assam.

Secondly, Pakistan itself has proved anything but safe for muslims, and is currently fighting a losing battle against fundamentalist Islam. A displaced Indian muslim population with no cultural roots will quickly and easily fall into the trap of fundamentalist Islam.
Or perhaps that is what you want?

The Hindustani Muslim may some day form majorities or significant minorities in the states that border Pakistan to one day ensure no power or powers can negatively effect the peace they and Pakistan can build in the area.

The blunt facts are that Pakistan has failed miserably at its intended purpose. Indian muslims have fared far better than their Pakistani counterparts. They have had far better opportunities to improve in India than Pakistan.

Having said that, this will lead to terrible destabilization because a fundamentalist muslim population will inevitably attempt to secede and merge with Pakistan. India will definitely not allow itself to be divided again, and the ensuing war will be long and bloody.
Oh but wait, since you consider Israel a roaring success, I presume that you would be quite happy with this.

I do not see down sides i this proposal, do you? Jewry did this successfully and over more than 100 years, why not learn from this endeavour and implement a more successful model?

Well, in that case please think harder and look closer.
 
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Assasino

Objections you raise are of rhetorical nature -- just because these cultures are different does not mean that they do not share meaningful similarities, after all in the states you mention, Muslims are not majorities and they have been living with other cultures, at least with larger numbers of Hindustani Muslims in border states of Pakistan, they may be assured of less differences.

No one has suggsested that they become Pakistani, so why the huff and suggestion of Pakistani failures? After all there have been as many successes, once again I sense that you wish to fall back on certain "techniques" which have become popular among Indian internet posters, either shift the focus, or attack the interlocutor or focus on that which is not in the agenda - this is regrettable.

My suggestion is not that these become Pakistani but that to safe guard themselves they take a decision to begin making homes and lives for themselves in the border states of Pakistan - after all do ordinary Indians not have the right to live where they want to in India?? Do Indians not have the right to movement and association??

What then can be your objection??
 
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Sorry did'nt mean that to happen
 
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Assasino

Objections you raise are of rhetorical nature -- just because these cultures are different does not mean that they do not share meaningful similarities, after all in the states you mention, Muslims are not majorities and they have been living with other cultures, at least with larger numbers of Hindustani Muslims in border states of Pakistan, they may be assured of less differences.

What you are suggesting is, infact appalling. Why is it advantageous for muslims to have "lesser differences" with Pakistani muslims? Are you suggesting that it is better for Keralite muslims to adopt Pakistani culture?
I simply fail to see any good coming out of this.

You are exhibiting an extremely narrow mentality, which in effect says that muslims can only better themselves if they are a majority. This is regressive thinking, and goes against the grain of globalization, which is about dissolving differences, not emphasizing them.

No one has suggsested that they become Pakistani, so why the huff and suggestion of Pakistani failures? After all there have been as many successes, once again I sense that you wish to fall back on certain "techniques" which have become popular among Indian internet posters, either shift the focus, or attack the interlocutor or focus on that which is not in the agenda - this is regrettable.

A displaced muslim population "bordering Pakistan", as you suggest, will be susceptible to the influences of the extremist and gun culture prevailing in Pakistan. This culture is completely alien to Indian muslims.
Kashmir is a great example of what happens when one group of muslims takes the "theka" of another. Afghan Mujahideens had little in common with Kashmiris, but unfortunately that is changing thanks to Pakistani influence.

I have no clue what "techniques" you are refering to here. I am merely pointing out the fact that Pakistan is NOT a safe haven for muslims, and is currently (or in the near future), not in a position to offer any constructive help to Indian muslims.

My suggestion is not that these become Pakistani but that to safe guard themselves they take a decision to begin making homes and lives for themselves in the border states of Pakistan - after all do ordinary Indians not have the right to live where they want to in India?? Do Indians not have the right to movement and association??

Your "suggestions" have no relation to what will ACTUALLY happen if such a thing takes place .

Of course Indians have the right to movement, but that's besides the point.

We are discussing the possible implications of a mass-migration of Indian muslims westward, which, has so many horrible consequences that its difficult to imagine how somebody could come up with such a harebrained scheme.

I can imagine the reaction of the already polarized Gujarati society as migrant muslims alter the demographics of that state, and this is just one of the many ill-effects, which I am not going to bother to list.

What then can be your objection??

It would be better if you try to counter my arguments rather than question my attitude.
 
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The simpler and better way is to assert their Indianness.

Feel a part of India, be an Indian first and foremost, reject all extremism, return any mosques built on ruins of major Indian temples to Hindus (taking out the biggest cause of Hindu antipathy and generating a major goodwill), reject and vehemently oppose any terror against the country, turn over the anti-social any anti-nationals in their midst to the Police, be a part of the mainstream, educate themselves and their kids et al.

More practical than your suggestion of moving closer to a purported "enemy" country. That will make them suspect in the eyes of the majority, don't you think?

Implicit suggestion is one more partition based on religion. That is never gonna happen in India! Not at ANY cost.

Indians will never allow the breakdown of their country based on religion. Those who did not feel Indian had a choice to go to Pakistan in 1947. They chose to live in India because they felt it was THEIR country than a strange far away place.
 
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Flintlock

I'm disappointed, but you have taken refuge behind the same kinds of tricks we have now seen too much of to remain indeifferent to it, you attack your interlocutor:

You are exhibiting an extremely narrow mentality

Infact the safety of Muslims of India can best be safeguarded if they should begin to settle in the border states of Pakistan. No partition is required or called for, the fact some Indians should react with suggestions that the free movement of Muslims of Indian is now seen as a threat is reflect of the kinds of attitudes that these Muslim sof India seek to distance themselves from, at least your position would seem to suggest.

Vinod

Implicit suggestion is one more partition based on religion. That is never gonna happen in India! Not at ANY cost.

Indians will never allow the breakdown of their country based on religion

I am shocked that you think in these terms. The freedom of movement and the freedom of association are the freedoms the constitution of India gaurantees -- once again, I am not suggesting that the Muslims of Hindustan become Pakistani or Pakistan assist them to free themselves, I am suggesting that the Muslims of Hindustan would be safer if they over time settle in the states that border Pakistan.

Such a proposal has proved to provide safety to jews of Israel and I do not see you object to that movement, yet you would find the expression of freedom of movement and association of Muslims of India objectionable??

I must say I find the attitude you guys are expressing most troubling, today you would restrict the freedom f movement and association of Muslim sof Hindustan, what will you do tomorrow? Indeed, it is exactly such attitudes that may incite others to seek their freedom in more violent means. I urge you to reconsider.
 
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^^ I have given an alternate approach that is much more practical and will make them an equal partner in the progress of India if they are not already.

Why do you think they need to separate from the majority for their safety? Why not emphasize on what is common which is thousands of years of shared history instead of mere religious aspects?

Why border areas closer to Pakistan? How does it guarantee security? Has it guaranteed security to the Kashmiris? Has it guaranteed security to the Muslims already in Pakistan?

I find it either extremely naive or devilish (not sure what is your intention though).

Anyway, Indians will find a way out of the communal troubles. It is not a really big factor. The bigger issue is the terror coming from across the border. If you are really sincere about helping Indian Musilims, may be you can try to rein in the terrorists coming from there, petition your government to realy rein in the LETs and JEMs etc. instead of just making a show of it for Western consumption when the pressure pile on after a major terrorist attack anywhere in the world.
 
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The simpler and better way is to assert their Indianness.

Feel a part of India, be an Indian first and foremost, reject all extremism, return any mosques built on ruins of major Indian temples to Hindus (taking out the biggest cause of Hindu antipathy and generating a major goodwill), reject and vehemently oppose any terror against the country, turn over the anti-social any anti-nationals in their midst to the Police, be a part of the mainstream, educate themselves and their kids et al.

Indians will never allow the breakdown of their country based on religion. Those who did not feel Indian had a choice to go to Pakistan in 1947. They chose to live in India because they felt it was THEIR country than a strange far away place.[/B]


Vinod its realy sorry state of affairs that despite the fact that millions of Muslims had chosen to stay in India at the time of partion and this is the proof of their Loyalty to India, these poor Muslims were never considred as INDIAN by the mainstream Hindus and the Indian Government.

These Muslims are still taunted and asked to go back to Pakistan.
So vinod do not blam Muslims for not considering themselves as Indian. They are loyal to India and consider themselves Indians its only India that is not accepting them.



Why do Indian Muslims lag behind?
By Soutik Biswas
BBC News



Muslims make up India's largest religious minority




As historians tell it, during India's first election in 1952, Jawaharlal Nehru was already worrying about the feeble representation of Muslims in the country's positions of authority.

Many more Muslims had stayed back in India than the millions who migrated to newly-born Pakistan after the partition just five years before.

India's first prime minister's concerns about the country's second largest religious group and the largest religious minority were eminently justified.




See a map of the area
"There were hardly any Muslims left in the defence service, and not many in the secretariat," says historian Ramachandra Guha.


Next year, in 1953, a group of intellectuals met to discuss forming a political party for the Muslims and spoke about the low representation of Muslims in political positions and bureaucracy.

More than half century later, on India's 60th anniversary of independence, very little has changed.

(Indian Muslims) carry a double burden of being labelled as 'anti-national' and as being 'appeased' at the same time

Staying behind in India

Today, at over 138 million, Muslims constitute over 13% of India 's billion-strong population, and in sheer numbers are exceeded only by Indonesia's and Pakistan's Muslim community.

The country has had three Muslim presidents - a largely ceremonial role. Bollywood and cricket, two secular pan-Indian obsessions, continue to have their fair share of Muslim stars - the ruling heroes in Mumbai films are Shah Rukh, Aamir and Salman Khan, and the star of India's current English cricket tour is pace bowler Zaheer Khan. Not long ago, the national team was led by the stylish Mohammed Azharuddin.

That's where the good news essentially ends.


Muslims are a 'vulnerable' community
Muslims comprise only 5% of employees in India's big government, a recent study found. The figure for Indian Railways, the country's biggest employer, is only 4.5%.

The community continues to have a paltry representation in the bureaucracy and police - 3% in the powerful Indian Civil Service, 1.8% in foreign service and only 4% in the Indian Police Service. And Muslims account for only 7.8% of the people working in the judiciary.

Indian Muslims are also largely illiterate and poor.

At just under 60%, the community's literacy rate is lower than the national average of 65%. Only half of Muslim women can read and write. As many as a quarter of Muslim children in the age-group 6-14 have either never attended school or dropped out.

They are also poor - 31% of Muslims are below the country's poverty line, just a notch above the lowest castes and tribes who remain the poorest of the poor.

Identity card

To add to the community's woes are myriad problems relating to, as one expert says, "identity, security and equity".

"They carry a double burden of being labelled as 'anti-national' and as being 'appeased' at the same time," says a recent report on the state of Indian Muslims.


Historians say it is ironic that many Indians bought the Hindu nationalist bogey of 'Muslim appeasement' when it had not translated into any major socio-economic gain for the community.

So why has the lot of Indian Muslims remained miserable after six decades of independence?


Half of Muslim women in India cannot read or write
For one, it is the sheer apathy and ineptitude of the Indian state which has failed to provide equality of opportunity in health, education and employment.

This has hurt the poor - including the Muslim poor who comprise the majority of the community - most.

There is also the relatively recent trend of political bias against the community when Hindu nationalist governments have ruled in Delhi and the states.


Also, the lack of credible middle class leadership among the Muslims has hobbled the community's vision and progress.

Consequently, rabble rousers claiming to represent the community have thrust themselves to the fore.

To be true, mass migration during partition robbed the community of potential leaders - most Muslim civil servants, teachers, doctors and professionals crossed over.

But the failure to throw up credible leaders has meant low community participation in the political processes and government - of the 543 MPs in India's lower house of parliament, only 36 are Muslims.

Also, as Ramachandra Guha says, the "vicissitudes of India-Pakistan relations and Pakistan's treatment of its minorities" ensured that Muslims remained a "vulnerable" community.

Regional disparities

The plight of Indian Muslims also has a lot to do with the appalling quality of governance, unequal social order and lack of equality of opportunity in northern India where most of the community lives.

Populous Uttar Pradesh is home to nearly a fifth of Muslims (31 million) living in India, while Bihar has more than 10 million community members.


Shah Rukh Khan is the biggest Bollywood star
"Southern India is a different picture. Larger cultural and social movements have made education more accessible and self employment more lucrative benefiting a large number of Muslims," says historian Mahesh Rangarajan.

In Andhra Pradesh state, for example, 68% of Muslims are literate, higher than the state and national average. School enrolment rates for Muslim children are above 90% in Kerala and Tamil Nadu.

Mahesh Rangarajan says poverty and "absence of ameliorative policies" has hurt India's Muslims most.

If India was to be "a secular, stable and strong state," Nehru once said, "then our first consideration must be to give absolute fair play to our minority".



BBC NEWS | South Asia | Why do Indian Muslims lag behind?
 
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There is no organization called Indan Mujahid in India. This is false organization created by enemy and other terrorist organizations to escape the international pressure and create a picture in that Indian Muslim are not safe and that is why revolting.

This is really unfortunate for Indian Muslim, because they are peace loving and by nature very soft. I agree there are few policitician in India who hate muslims but biggest enemy of Indian Muslim is these radical ideologist terrorist organizations who have backing of some federal agencies.

I am really worried about our community, enemy of this country using religious sentiments.
 
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Vinod

you say my proposal is naive or devilish? - but why be so defensive? You say let them (Muslims of India) express their commonality with Hindus, but you do not like them expressing any commonality with with other Muslims in India or elsewhere do you? What do you fear? And do you not understand self-fulfilling prohescy?

By the way, this is not so much my proposal but that of Muslims of India, more and more see that the closer they are to the border of Pakistan, the safer they will be.

How clear is the plight of Muslim sof India when persons such as yourself who should and do know better, I will not believe you are a hateful facist, turn your back on experience of hatred so clearly evident in the BBC piece Jana presented.

I sincerely encourage you to reconsider such ideas and attitudes.

You know and we all know that the Muslims of India will never be real "indians" to the majority - keeping them in small minorities seperated from each other makes them an easier target of hateful bigots, you know that is so, but it seems you will need more time to see ideology cannot replace experience.
 
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What does this prove? That India wants to integrate its largest minority.

India in fact has many schemes exclusively for minority welfare, though implemented by minorities themselves to a large extent they are as prone to corruption as any other. Muslim students are getting scholarships in very large numbers for higher studies which is difficult for majority students.

They are backwards mainly for their internal reasons like your NWFP, FATA and Balochistan provinces. No one is preventing them from achieving anything. Many of them chose to keep latching to outdated ideas and hence remain backwards. e.g. in UP like in your NWFP they refuse to give Polio drops to their children and keeping Polio in India and the region alive. Then they travel all over India and spread it in other states.

Whose fault is this? Some of them tend to easily believe that the indian Government wants to make their children "bekaar" so that they are will not be able to reproduce in future! I believe same is the case in parts of your state.

Most of the small Muslim middle class went to Pakistan during the partition. That explains the state of Muslims, most of them started from a very low base and did not make enough effort to come up in life choosing to willow in self pity instead.

Even then I don't believe an average Indian Muslim is worse off on most parameters than an average Pakistani Muslim.

Anyway I don't think India needs to do any of that for showing it to people like you. You are never one to look at reality. You just want to throw dust at India at any opportunity, but when you throw dust up high in the sky, it only falls back on your face!
 
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