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Indian FGFA will be real challenge for American F-22 : German Defense Expert Helmut

Chest thumping patriotism aside, I find this tough to believe. Sure, we have some great engineering talent but we neither have the monetary resources nor the pedigree in avionics. How much is the LCA delayed by?

Secondly, it could be a defense scam at the highest levels. There is the technology available to build a 5th generation fighter, there are companies building it - why don't we just buy the products with complete Transfer of Technology? Why the need to re-invent the wheel?

It is just the Indian mindset. In India, there is always an opposition for any new/state of the art projects from the so called lobbies. Look at the Delhi metro project, against which petrol lobby tried alot to halt it. And now look at it, it is the proud of Delhi.

Earlier, there is always corruption in defence deals, look at our Mig-21s, coz of inferior stuff it is always crashing unlike the Migs being used by other countries. Now the media is strong and hungry for breaking news corruption in high level, so it is very less.

And regarding LCA, the delay is not much, despite of all design changes in between, it achieved first flight in 2001 & getting FOC in 2010. (|Remember EF first flight was in 1994 & FOC in 2003) It is like the case of Arjun tank, once you pitt against foreign stuff, you will understand worthness of Indian products. People who wants to make money out of defence deals are voicing for foreign purchase. And trust me the engineers who are getting selected for our defence companies are the best(the recruitment process and the parameters are very tough)

Rgds.
 
And regarding LCA, the delay is not much, despite of all design changes in between, it achieved first flight in 2001 & getting FOC in 2010. (|Remember EF first flight was in 1994 & FOC in 2003) It is like the case of Arjun tank, once you pitt against foreign stuff, you will understand worthness of Indian products. People who wants to make money out of defence deals are voicing for foreign purchase. And trust me the engineers who are getting selected for our defence companies are the best(the recruitment process and the parameters are very tough)

Rgds.

Come on man, I am hoping for LCA too, but we can't be so blind of proud to really believe that that development is not more than delayed, badly planed and simply overhyped. We are developing a low end 4.th to 4.5 gen fighter and not a high tech MMRCA.

Airframe - not good enough designed and causes problems in terms of AoA and drag. Overweight which led to EADS consultancy
Engine - not even close to be used on LCA, hopefully the Snecma upgrade will help, especially on the weight too
Radar - A2A modes were said to be ok, but A2G modes had to be co-developed with Israelis and the AESA development started, but according to IAF is not good enough and they need a foreign partner again
Weapons - Astra and Indian LGB succesfully tested and probably ready for induction soon

So lets look at it with a realistic point of view and without proud, all the major parts that we wanted to do alone are not ready, or the way they were pland and apart from other problems like sanctions, or adequate fundings in the early years, these mistakes are the reasons for the long delays.
And instead of getting these things done as soon as possible, ADA/DRDO... starts dreaming of AMCA.

Our indigenous capabilities in the aero field are not on the same level with Russia, the western countries, Japan, or even China. That's why we can also contribute so less to FGFA and please don't get blinded by this article, or the recent article about 5. gen techs on LCA.
FGFA will be more capable not because of Indian high techs, our knowledge of latest avionics and techs, or the high experience in developing aircrafts. But because we using the big advantage of access to foreign weapons and techs. We will add more composites and some avionics, but that's it!
Let us go step by step and take foreign co-developments as a chance and not as something bad that we have to get rid of.
Simple buying foreign stuff is the problem, but co-developments and JVs with as much Indian contribution as possible, is good for our industry (because they learn and get more experience), as well as our forces (because they get latest weapons and techs, with less dependance as in the past).
 
Come on man, I am hoping for LCA too, but we can't be so blind of proud to really believe that that development is not more than delayed, badly planed and simply overhyped. We are developing a low end 4.th to 4.5 gen fighter and not a high tech MMRCA.

Airframe - not good enough designed and causes problems in terms of AoA and drag. Overweight which led to EADS consultancy
Engine - not even close to be used on LCA, hopefully the Snecma upgrade will help, especially on the weight too
Radar - A2A modes were said to be ok, but A2G modes had to be co-developed with Israelis and the AESA development started, but according to IAF is not good enough and they need a foreign partner again
Weapons - Astra and Indian LGB succesfully tested and probably ready for induction soon

So lets look at it with a realistic point of view and without proud, all the major parts that we wanted to do alone are not ready, or the way they were pland and apart from other problems like sanctions, or adequate fundings in the early years, these mistakes are the reasons for the long delays.
And instead of getting these things done as soon as possible, ADA/DRDO... starts dreaming of AMCA.

Our indigenous capabilities in the aero field are not on the same level with Russia, the western countries, Japan, or even China. That's why we can also contribute so less to FGFA and please don't get blinded by this article, or the recent article about 5. gen techs on LCA.
FGFA will be more capable not because of Indian high techs, our knowledge of latest avionics and techs, or the high experience in developing aircrafts. But because we using the big advantage of access to foreign weapons and techs. We will add more composites and some avionics, but that's it!
Let us go step by step and take foreign co-developments as a chance and not as something bad that we have to get rid of.
Simple buying foreign stuff is the problem, but co-developments and JVs with as much Indian contribution as possible, is good for our industry (because they learn and get more experience), as well as our forces (because they get latest weapons and techs, with less dependance as in the past).

dude the LCA is just the first step that has been taken n our long journey.....and it is really a big one for the first step . wait till we start leaping
 
well... Ideally it has to be a challenge.. otherwise why will they develop something like this...

It is a always a little less difficult to design and develop if you already have a benchmark vehicle... Credit to USA for creating such a futuristic aircraft..

hope the russian and indian guys do a good job of the FGFA....
 
remember one thing dude this is going to be the second aircraft that india is going to develop and u cant have work all done in india even china depend on russia for engine so do Sweden for their jas39 grippen use a american engine and that the aircraft is been in service since 90's u cant change every thing over night it will take time for kavery first it has to be installed in Tejas and then the upgraded or may be new engine for AMCA or it can be the engine used in FGFA.............. Here is a group of scientist who are trying to build an advanced engine from the scratch and that is under the cloud of technical denial regime........... u will understand if ur country tries to develop something high tech indigenous...........



Then I believe you just answered your own Indian friend... That is exactly what i was tryinng to tell him.. That you cant have a 100% indigenous airplane.. and if thatts the case then it would definately be prone to some sort of sanctions.

However, I understand that developing an engine from scratch "ON YOUR OWN" can take alot of time.. but the truth is that India always have Russia to help them who do indeed in every defence aspect.

But putting money in for 30 years without success.. dont you think its kinda hopeless and pathetic?
 
However, coming to the topic I believe that FGFA might be a problem for the f-22 but not for USAF.. that is because by the time FGFA makes its first flight, The US will have developed something much modern and better than the F-22.. They are probably working on it right now.. Try checking the American DEFENCE BUDGET and compare it with yourself and your Russian friends... and then read my post again.. :D


So you see its pointless comparing with the Americans. . .
 
However, coming to the topic I believe that FGFA might be a problem for the f-22 but not for USAF.. that is because by the time FGFA makes its first flight, The US will have developed something much modern and better than the F-22.. They are probably working on it right now.. Try checking the American DEFENCE BUDGET and compare it with yourself and your Russian friends... and then read my post again.. :D


So you see its pointless comparing with the Americans. . .

You have answered your own question dude .... The topic is " Indian FGFA will be real challenge for American F-22" and you seem to have agreed with this "FGFA might be a problem for the f-22".

The topic is just the comparison of two air crafts not the air-forces.
 
Then I believe you just answered your own Indian friend... That is exactly what i was tryinng to tell him.. That you cant have a 100% indigenous airplane.. and if thatts the case then it would definately be prone to some sort of sanctions.

However, I understand that developing an engine from scratch "ON YOUR OWN" can take alot of time.. but the truth is that India always have Russia to help them who do indeed in every defence aspect.

But putting money in for 30 years without success.. dont you think its kinda hopeless and pathetic?

We understand that LCA has its own delay, but designing a fighter air craft from the begining will take time for a country like India, remember Eurofighter programme started in 1984 & then introduced to Air forces in 2004 only, they even took 20 yrs for a fighter with earlier air craft making experiance and 3-4 nations partnering it.

LCA will be the platform for Indian aviation industry and already announced the new programme like AMCA & 5th Gen. aircraft. And our experiance in composits will come handly in FGFA programmes.

Rgds,
 
dude the LCA is just the first step that has been taken n our long journey.....and it is really a big one for the first step . wait till we start leaping

I know and I still hope they will get the best out of the fighter, but the way they did the development is the problem and that's also the reason why ADA/DRDO/HAL are not able to contribute much to an 5. gen fighter, because they still are learning to develop a 4. gen fighter.

We understand that LCA has its own delay, but designing a fighter air craft from the begining will take time for a country like India, remember Eurofighter programme started in 1984 & then introduced to Air forces in 2004 only, they even took 20 yrs for a fighter with earlier air craft making experiance and 3-4 nations partnering it.

LCA will be the platform for Indian aviation industry and already announced the new programme like AMCA & 5th Gen. aircraft. And our experiance in composits will come handly in FGFA programmes.

Rgds,

True, EF is also very delayed, but there are some big difference between both projects! EF is a high tech fighter that is already flying in operational service for some years now and is said to be possibly the best A2A fighter of its gen. Also the techs that were aimed to be ready from the start are working and available, with more integrated by the time (although slowly again).
LCA instead is delayed and available in prototypes only, the major techs are not ready and it still suffers several issues on weight and design. Without getting LCA ready, there is no base that we can use for AMCA, no AESA radar, no Kaveri engine, same goes for stealth design which we have to learn about from FGFA development first.

It's simply not realistic to believe at the present level of our aero industry, that we are able to develop a 5. gen fighter, because it is way more difficult than converting LCH from Dhruv and demands way more knowledge. That's why LCA and FGFA developments are so important for us, not to mention the benefits we could get out of MMRCA.
 
Guys -

I dont now if FGFA will be comaparable to F-22.

But Challenge???......Yes it will be. I have no doubt.
 
I don't know why everyone is complaining about the length of the LCA programme, and comparing it to programmes such as the EFT and
F-22, both of which were undertaken by experienced companies. F-22 had Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Pratt & Whitney, all very experienced aviation experts that have over 200 years of experience in this field, EVEN THEY had some MAJOR setbacks and the program took a quite considerable amount of time. How do you expect companies with little or no experience to produce the same or similar results?? It's completely absurd to do so as any rational person would agree.
 
yes...in the year 1950 when F-22 for USA would be like today's Mig-21 for us....I read in today's Asian Age, indian minister has asked ADA chief to scrap LCA project...for me LCA and MCA are just a night fancy of DRDO imposed on Indian people and policy makers....scientist invloved have spent their whole life on LCA earning them regular salary from tax payer money and now on the verge of retirement they can enjoy pension from tax payer money....BUT where is LCA? I will not accept LCA as a sucess of indigenous efforts until it uses Indian engine....waste of money...better concentrate on PakFA and Sukhoi MKI...scarp all other deals/birds...

If a fighter plane reign the world for 50 years.....Then its more than a match.....:usflag:

America think in a different way...Even F-16 is being sold worldwide today which was introduced in way back in 1978....Its already 32 years passed....It will go 20 years or more...
 
by the time indian, russian, and chinese fifth G will come out, american will have an improved variant of raptor!

so basically america is leading the race and will remain no.1 for awhile...

Yes...there is a strong possibility.....

India, Russia will start recieving 5th gen plane 2020-2025...

And America will start recieving 6th gen fighter plane between 2025-2030....They always think of far future....:coffee:
 
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