Indian army has probably forgotten the Kargil war - Pervez Musharraf

[VCheng]

I fully agree. But I would add that I don’t think it is any worse in this forum than elsewhere in Pakistani society, to his own credit Musharraf has successfully pushed propaganda to make it seem as if Kargil was some military triumph for us. Some example of us outclassing Indians etc.

The only instances in which musharraf or his supporters concede from this false pride, they do so by blaming Nawaz Sharif or the US. I think this view is actually far more prevalent in our people in general, at least a sizeable portion of this forum are enlightened to see beyond the thin layer of propaganda masking the real horror of the Kargil disaster.

A fair comment, except the enlightenment of a "sizable portion". Me being the eternal realist that I am, a sizable portion is actually part of enhancing this propaganda, and the newer management style further supports such viewpoints aggressively.

For major military blunders such as the topic of this thread, the tried-and-true approach is that heads the khakis win, the tails the civilians lose: claimed military triumphs are attributed to the bahadur fauj, while the real failures are blamed on the civvies, Kargil being a prime example, and there are many more.

The end result is an environment where the military can do no wrong, and even if it is wrong, it must be someone else's fault, while the nation continues its endless march into oblivion, while believing falsehoods like Indian violations of IWT (not happened to date) and the LoC in Siachen (which was never demarcated) to the bravery on Siachen (when it is the Saltoro Ridge), much to the chagrin of the long suffering patriots.

(And those who dare think or say otherwise are being weeded out from PDF actively, just like in society-at-large.)

 

[SecularNationalist]

Nobody dared to take kashmir from india by force because pak army knows it is impossible .
So talking about kargil is nonsense ,it was bound to fail .

LMAO
Even though we did not manage to take it by force ,that doesn't mean we did not dare and gave you a tough time.
Remember 1965,1999 and all the shit storm you are facing in Kashmir. We actually dared to turn every single kashmiri against you. It's the kashmiris who make Kashmir not the piece of land. Would you dare to lift the curfew and face the music?? Hahaha...
Let's wait see how the decision of fifth August pans out for you. Apparently things will get worse.
Ghalib ki najayaz aulad

 

[Thamizh Puli]

my goodness! does Musharaf and his followers actually believe they accomplished something for Pakistan with the Kargil debacle? senility setting in perhaps.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

my goodness! does Musharaf and his followers actually believe they accomplished something for Pakistan with the Kargil debacle? senility setting in perhaps.

So say the same people who also claimed that the iaf killed exactly 3terrorists in Balakot and shot down an F-16.........

 

[CodeforFood]

Incorrect. The responsibility for those dead lies on the person who planned the whole operation and executed it in a dubiously extra-Constitutional manner without thinking about the inevitable political fallout in the international community. There is far more to war than just shooting bullets, please never forget that.

You don't take action just to please international's community. All of this fall in the grey area as I see it. But we all know that Nawaz buckled under pressure and ran to rome to plead forgiveness.

 

[VCheng]

You don't take action just to please international's community. All of this fall in the grey area as I see it. But we all know that Nawaz buckled under pressure and ran to rome to plead forgiveness.

Whenever such actions are taken, one better make sure there is enough cojones to back it up. Writing a military check that State cannot cash is pointless and only leads to a poor reputation. If Nawaz buckled, then so did General Musharraf. He could have deposed NS and carried on with Kargil regardless. Why did he not? Because he is just as much of a coward as NS, and no better. Claiming he had to obey NS over Kargil is BS, since Gen Musharraf had no problems deposing NS later.

 

[CodeforFood]

Whenever such actions are taken, one better make sure there is enough cojones to back it up. Writing a military check that State cannot cash is pointless and only leads to a poor reputation. If Nawaz buckled, then so did General Musharraf. He could have deposed NS and carried on with Kargil regardless. Why did he not? Because he is just as much of a coward as NS, and no better. Claiming he had to obey NS over Kargil is BS, since Gen Musharraf had no problems deposing NS later.

Fair points! Although he might have committed a career suicide if he did depose nawaz at that time.

 

[VCheng]

Fair points! Although he might have committed a career suicide if he did depose nawaz at that time.

That is another point - what the General was doing was serving himself, and not his army or his nation. In other words, a selfish treasonous coward.

 

[LeGenD]

Not lost militarily , lost Politically . Had ganja shown some bravery we would not have been seeing this siege in Kashmir today.

Bro,

Kargil War was a failure, WE could not defeat India in IOK. WE should come to terms with this defeat now as unfortunate and depressing it was.

 

[Pakistani sipahi]

If you think so, toh wohi sahi... Doesn't matter. At least the issue would have gotten solved in 1947 itself. Ya tou tumhara, ya hamara...

This half baked cake would not have dragged on forever taking both country's substantial budget toward defence expenditures, which could, otherwise, have been spent on developmental projects.

Exactly, but you were too afraid in 1948 and went to UN to save your A$$. Baat wahein khatam kar dete ya tumhara ya hamara

My belief on Gandhi and Nehru is completely different due to my upbringing in an environment where Bhagat Singh, Azaad and Bose were praised...
Moto of life... VEER BHOGE VASUNDHARA...

In how many wars... you guys have beaten INDIA very badly... None...
Results speaks volumes...



Just an excuse... as usual...

I don't need to reiterate you know what happened in

1948 you went to UN as you were not able to face us in War .
1965 you opened front on international border because you were getting kicked in Kashmir to stretch our forces but still were not able to handle us in all sectors . (Proof : Shastri gets heart attack)
1971 If you think that was your victory and you defeated us then why you were not able to capture West Pakistan . I am very glad that our boys did the right thing by surrendering rather than die for ghadar Bengalis (as you can see Haseena licking India's . . . . ).
1998 Kargil we still hold some strategic peaks in that sector which can prove hell for you when they will be utilized in case of war.
Last but not the least 27 Feb 2019 your army chief was nearly taken out . The gem of all ,was enough to show you our intent .

 

[Mighty Lion]

1998 Kargil we still hold some strategic peaks in that sector which can prove hell for you when they will be utilized in case of war.
Last but not the least 27 Feb 2019 your army chief was nearly taken out . The gem of all ,was enough to show you our intent .

We also hold many strategic peaks since kargil on your side of LoC like Point 5310 and mount anzabar

 

[Mighty Lion]

IAF never struck inside KPK. The place where IAF hurriedly dropped bombs while flying inside Indian Occupied Kashmir was a very small village known as Balakot which is 4-5 Km inside LOC/CFL, its different from Balakot (town) near Mansehra in KPK.

lol.
Your own media says it is in Balakot of Mansehra

https://www.dawn.com/news/1466286

Your Mansehra KPK police even filed an FIR against IAF:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1469675

 

[Pakistani sipahi]

We also hold many strategic peaks since kargil on your side of LoC like Point 5310 and mount anzabar

It doesn't matter after all , we are always looking at that supply route If I can get a better position in hitting that route by even loosing some of my peaks, I will be happy to loose some of my peaks to get into that position from where I can target the route easily.

 

[Signalian]

lol.
Your own media says it is in Balakot of Mansehra

https://www.dawn.com/news/1466286

Your Mansehra KPK police even filed an FIR against IAF:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1469675

Thats the general perception since no one knows there are two Balakot.

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/ind...t-the-indian-air-force-target-1.1551168559497

There are two areas called Balakot. The main Balakot, town which is known to the world, is located in Mansehra district of Kyber-Pakhtunkhwa (KPK) province of Pakistan and it is outside the territory of Pakistan Administered Kashmir.

The second Balakot where the Indian Air Force struck is a small village located around 4 to 5km from the Line of Control (LoC) in the Pakistan side of Kashmir. This area is mostly under the control of Pakistan army as the civilian population has already been moved out of the area due to the fear of border clashes, a highly placed official told Gulf News.

He said the Indian Air Force did not enter Balakot town in KPK. The strike was reported in Balakot village near the LOC.


Balakot Town in KPK was actually razed to the ground during the 2005 earthquake and it was rebuilt over the years. It is one of the major tourist spots in Pakistan.

 

[Mighty Lion]

Thats the general perception since no one knows there are two Balakot.

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/ind...t-the-indian-air-force-target-1.1551168559497

There are two areas called Balakot. The main Balakot, town which is known to the world, is located in Mansehra district of Kyber-Pakhtunkhwa (KPK) province of Pakistan and it is outside the territory of Pakistan Administered Kashmir.

The second Balakot where the Indian Air Force struck is a small village located around 4 to 5km from the Line of Control (LoC) in the Pakistan side of Kashmir. This area is mostly under the control of Pakistan army as the civilian population has already been moved out of the area due to the fear of border clashes, a highly placed official told Gulf News.

He said the Indian Air Force did not enter Balakot town in KPK. The strike was reported in Balakot village near the LOC.


Balakot Town in KPK was actually razed to the ground during the 2005 earthquake and it was rebuilt over the years. It is one of the major tourist spots in Pakistan.

Wrong Again.

Internation media and diplomats were taken to Balakot area of Mansehra by your own ISPR.

ISLAMABAD: A group of foreign media persons, mostly from India, and ambassadors and defence attachés of various countries in Pakistan on Wednesday visited the impact site of the botched Indian air strike near Jabba in the Balakot area of Mansehra district on Feb 26.

Inter-Services Public Relations Director General Maj Gen Asif Ghafoor briefed the group about details of the incident, rejecting repeated false Indian claims and presenting ground realities. The visitors were shown craters created by the botched Indian air strike in barren open spaces with no loss to life or infrastructure.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1475284

Australian strategic institute also found that bomb impact points were in Mansehra's Balakot
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/indias-strike-on-balakot-a-very-precise-miss/

https://www.dawn.com/news/1468072


Also ther eis no area called Jabba in Balakote of Poonch.