Indian Airforce A-50 EI Spotted

[Energon]

E3 Sentry for a Naval air arm is an overkill. Its more expensive than the Phalcon and also there are no examples available to be purchased. Hawkeye 2000 is probably the best AEW solution for a Naval Air Arm currently. It is small, flexible and has considerable detection and tracking range.

If the IN were to go for an AEW it would be far better to join a program in its early phases like the E3 just as they did with the P8I. However as Malaymishra has rightly pointed out, this wouldn't be cost effective for the IN since none of their carriers as of now are planned to be CATOBAR operators, which is an integral requirement to effectively use the shipborne E2 or the E3s. If shoreborne AWACS are to be used, (and the IN would be in its full rights to desire some given the vast area under their jurisdiction) then it would be far more convenient and cheaper to acquire the locally assembled AWACS using the Embraer platform in the coming years.

However, If by some chance the IN is able to acquire catapults from the US for their two future ADS' then procurement of a shipborne AEW would be necessary.

 

[JEFF]

I doubt it...... three aircraft is not enough to set up a production line. Besides it would require TOT which is not included in this deal.

I think Ejaz has posted an article for the requirements of more and more awacs, atleast according to it we do this speculation of liceance production.

Morever, if you want to trust me as a wise person, a few years back when awacs deal was first inked, at that time there was an article in daily newspaper Midday, it was specifically mentioned in it that India is expected to go for three more awacs in addition to ordered one, and more likely surplus three that would be going to be ordered will be liceance produced in India. For this purpose I can't provide you with the link, hope you can understand by problem in extracting the link as I had read it in newspaper.

 

[JEFF]

So far you have THREE awacs on order. They have a endurance of approximately 7 hours.........Do the math. How much of India will they cover?

Well IFR is always there to take care of endurance.

 

[Keysersoze]

Well IFR is always there to take care of endurance.

Well did you know about the problems that the IL-76 platforms have with IFR?

Also fewer platforms would require more downtime for maintenance.

At $1 Billion for three platforms there would not likely be a production line. And the talk of other platforms are more likely to be the indigenous project rather than the Phalcon.

And given the cost and nature of the aircraft (plus additional factors like availability of IL-76 platforms from Russia and the time it would require to get them installed in Israel, Not to mention the notoriously speedy Indian procurement process. When did the IAF put forward the requirement for the MRCA again?

 

[Contrarian]

6 is insuffiecient, IMO India requires 12 Phalcon sized AWACS and around 6 of the DRDO developed ones. Phalcon is a huge AWACS in terms of range and the payload it can carry, the DRDO developed AWACS would be smaller, in the Erieye range of things.

Correction here, the IAF had previously wanted bigger planes the size of Boeings or Airbus for the DRDO AWACS. However, recent news report state that an order of 3 Emb 145 has been placed.

Now, Saab 2000 and EMB 145 are roughly same in size, with roughly the same seating capacity, though the EMB 145 is a tad bigger. Infact Erieye on an EMB 145 plane is actually quite popular from what i read!

The DRDO AWACS will be mounted on this platform. Thus, it should be like i said, in the Erieye range of raw power output, etc. Being a jet rather than a turbo prop it is as a platform better than the SAAB 2000. However the AWACS system developed by DRDO will, in all probability be inferior to the Erieye in its sophistication among other things. Erieye is a proven AWACS system which has been modified and has grown over the years.

But what i said earlier, stands valid, that Phalcons would be the strategic nodes whereas these EMB AWACS, would be the theater level nodes for IAF.

The Hindu : National : Brazilian jets to serve as eye in the sky for IAF

Bangalore: With the question whether the Air Force is still serious about the Rs 1,800-crore indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&CS) programme settled, India is to sign a deal with the Brazilian aerospace firm Embraer for three EMB 145 intelligence, reconnaissance and surveillance aircraft.

The three aircraft together are expected to cost around $300 million.

Based on Embraer’s regional ERJ 145, the jets, which are one of the world’s most advanced and powerful remote sensing aircraft, will be used by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for its AEW&CS programme, serving as the ‘eye in the sky’ for the Air Force, detecting and intercepting enemy planes and missiles which are in flight, and far away.

The AEW&CS, working along with the three Phalcon Airborne Early Warning, Command and Control (AEWC&C) systems that the Air Force is acquiring from Israel, will become a force multiplier, filling gaps in the coverage provided by ground radars.

Defence Ministry sources told The Hindu that the contract would be signed later this month and aircraft delivery would begin in three years.

The DRDO expects that the AEW&CS programme will be operationalised in around five years

The AEW&CS programme involves using a flying platform and mounting sensors (radars) that look far and deep, providing C2BM (command and control, battle management) functions with data link for both tactical and defence forces.

While in the AEWC&C the lofted sensors transmit information to a ground-based command and control centre, in the larger and more expensive Airborne Warning and Control System like the AEWC&C, the sensors disseminate information to a command centre that is part of the flying platform.

Under the agreement, Embraer will not only supply the jets, which have several hours of endurance and in-flight refuelling, but also mount the radar on the EMB-145 fuselage, ensuring that changes in the aircraft’s technical specifications such as its aero dynamism and handling after mounting get recertified in the altered configuration.

The Brazilians will also be responsible for the aircraft’s overall endurance with payload (radar) and a modification of the mounts that will receive the radar.

A number of DRDO laboratories are involved in the AEW&CS programme. The Defence Electronics Application Laboratory is involved with the primary sensors, communication systems and data link; the Defence Avionics Research Establishment with the self-protection systems, electronic warfare suites and communication support systems; and the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory with counter-support measures.

While the heart of the radar is from the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment, the responsibility for the overall integration of the systems, mission computer, display and data handling is that of the Bangalore-based Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS).

The CABS has tied up with the Hyderabad-based private firm Astra Microwave Products for development of trans-receiver multimodules.

The DRDO, which initiated talks with companies including Larsen and Toubro, Tata Power and Bharat Electronics with the idea of signing on a partner from the development stage itself for maintenance, upgrading and for taking care of obsolescence of the complicated radar system, has abandoned the idea. The hurdles: not being able to take manpower from outside the DRDO to work on the project, and the levels of commitment and materials.

Follow-up to ‘Airawat’


The AEW&CS programme is a follow-up to the Rs 60.80-crore ‘Project Guardian’ (later called ‘Airawat’), which ended in disaster in January 1999 after the HS-748 aircraft, on which the radar was mounted, crashed near Arakkonam in Tamil Nadu. All eight personnel on board, including four scientists who were critical to the project, were killed.

 

[JEFF]

Well did you know about the problems that the IL-76 platforms have with IFR?

I don't know much about, pls enlighten me.

Also fewer platforms would require more downtime for maintenance.

Fewer platforms? we are not gona inducted hundreds of phalcons, atleast it is confirmed that 6 will be there and when something like Mig-25 can get an proper maintenance, then I can assure you that Phalcons will not be an exceptions to it.

At $1 Billion for three platforms there would not likely be a production line.

See its upto the IAF to decide, when they like this awacs very much then naturally they would definetly gona for more and more of such types, and hence possibility of licance productions can't be ruled out.

And the talk of other platforms are more likely to be the indigenous project rather than the Phalcon.

See as I said earlier, if IAF likes this planes very much in their performance then you know how IAF top brass have the habit of choosing external stuff over their homegrown counterparts.

And given the cost

Cost!, now this is a things of past, since when India can fork $1.05 billion behind six C-130s then something like Phalcons would not be a big deal.

and nature of the aircraft (plus additional factors like availability of IL-76 platforms from Russia

Truly said, but IL-76 aren't the only aircraft upon which phalcons can be installed, there also have been several other options like Boeing, airbus?

and the time it would require to get them installed in Israel,

Now this is unlikely to happen since as far as Isreali reputation is concerned of delivering the stuff on schedule. The only problem might create upon hesitance of russians in delivering IL-76 on time.

Not to mention the notoriously speedy Indian procurement process.

Now this has nothing do with Indian procurement process, since once the deal is inked then then its upto the dealer to comply with the commentment. And MOD has already cleared the procurment of three additional Phalcons.

When did the IAF put forward the requirement for the MRCA again?

MRCA is more subject to Political gimmeaks rather then IAF's choice, if Political obstacles weren't there then IAF's inventory might have been swarming with Mirage-2000s quite before.

 

[EagleEyes]

Correction here, the IAF had previously wanted bigger planes the size of Boeings or Airbus for the DRDO AWACS. However, recent news report state that an order of 3 Emb 145 has been placed.

Now, Saab 2000 and EMB 145 are roughly same in size, with roughly the same seating capacity, though the EMB 145 is a tad bigger. Infact Erieye on an EMB 145 plane is actually quite popular from what i read!

The DRDO AWACS will be mounted on this platform. Thus, it should be like i said, in the Erieye range of raw power output, etc. Being a jet rather than a turbo prop it is as a platform better than the SAAB 2000. However the AWACS system developed by DRDO will, in all probability be inferior to the Erieye in its sophistication among other things. Erieye is a proven AWACS system which has been modified and has grown over the years.

But what i said earlier, stands valid, that Phalcons would be the strategic nodes whereas these EMB AWACS, would be the theater level nodes for IAF.

Thank god for the correction. Otherwise, i thought you still haven't changed.

Turbo prop versus jet is still something that PAF believes was a better choice. Its advantages may vary. Because where billions are being spent.. millions are nothing.

 

[Contrarian]

Thank god for the correction. Otherwise, i thought you still haven't changed.

Care to elaborate..

Turbo prop versus jet is still something that PAF believes was a better choice. Its advantages may vary. Because where billions are being spent.. millions are nothing.

I believe it was economic consideration for the PAF considering that they placed a direct order for 6 platforms + 1(training) initially itself. Eventually they reduced it, again due to economic consideration, and EMB 145 would have been much more expensive than SAAB 2000.

Either ways, you still have an AEW&C on something that flies, so the work is done, as regards to endurance, etc, etc, having more planes justifies having lesser endurance or individual capability of the plane, so prolly the maths works out right for PAF...

 

[blain2]

Care to elaborate..


I believe it was economic consideration for the PAF considering that they placed a direct order for 6 platforms + 1(training) initially itself. Eventually they reduced it, again due to economic consideration, and EMB 145 would have been much more expensive than SAAB 2000.

Either ways, you still have an AEW&C on something that flies, so the work is done, as regards to endurance, etc, etc, having more planes justifies having lesser endurance or individual capability of the plane, so prolly the maths works out right for PAF...

SAAB 2000 offers better endurance without IFR than any turbo jet in the same size. Secondly the issue was not all about money. In the dry northwestern climate, the performance of the turbojet engine has its own set of challenges. PAF has to be mindful of the western borders with Afghanistan as well. This was one of the reasons that AF actually decided to go with the turboprop.

Off the bat, Saab2000's endurance is world class. With IFR, we can push it out to 15 hour sorties or more.

 

[Neo]

There's a severe shortage of spare parts for IL-76/78, this could eventually ground the platform unless IAF secures large amount of spare kitts.

Russia isn't reliable when it comes to supplying spareparts, we've seen this happen with Mig-21, Mig-29 and now even Su-30MKI. My source tells me that only 10-12 jets are flying due severe shortage of spares.

 

[EagleEyes]

IL-76 i thought would be from Uzbekistan for India.

 

[Neo]

Uzbekistan or Ukraine, it doesn't matter. The production of spareparts is hardly able to meet the demands of exsisting fleet in both civil and military aviation.

 

[Contrarian]

SAAB 2000 offers better endurance without IFR than any turbo jet in the same size. Secondly the issue was not all about money. In the dry northwestern climate, the performance of the turbojet engine has its own set of challenges. PAF has to be mindful of the western borders with Afghanistan as well. This was one of the reasons that AF actually decided to go with the turboprop.

I see, i vaguely recall however some news report saying it was because of economic considerations...

Also mate, why does the PAF need an AWACS to cover its western border, the AAF is a joke right now and will be for a long time.

 

[Keysersoze]

There's a severe shortage of spare parts for IL-76/78, this could eventually ground the platform unless IAF secures large amount of spare kitts.

Russia isn't reliable when it comes to supplying spareparts, we've seen this happen with Mig-21, Mig-29 and now even Su-30MKI. My source tells me that only 10-12 jets are flying due severe shortage of spares.

Which jets are you referring to here?

 

[Contrarian]

There's a severe shortage of spare parts for IL-76/78, this could eventually ground the platform unless IAF secures large amount of spare kitts.

Russia isn't reliable when it comes to supplying spareparts, we've seen this happen with Mig-21, Mig-29 and now even Su-30MKI. My source tells me that only 10-12 jets are flying due severe shortage of spares.

IAF already operates Il-76, 3 more Il-76's for another three AWACS, not to mention IAF is planning to get atleast 6 more tankers, so all that adds to a significant fleet of Il-76/78's.

The latest contract with the Russia, is for Russia setting up a huge warehouse of sorts for stocking every kind of spares item for military aviation equipment that India uses. It will be set up as a JV if i remember correctly with Rosoboronexport. It should supposedly cut the time for procuring the spare parts for IAF machines drastically, with everything available here.