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Indian Air Force News & Discussions
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brahmastra
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Flight safety concerns of the IAF
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has put up a proposal with the Ministry of Defence (MoD), to have information about flight safety shared from friendly countries operating similiar aircraft, so as to have a huge database.
The proposal which came up recently, after the Russian airforce grounded its cargo aircraft, the IL-76, following an accident, is pending with the Ministry. The idea is to increase the database, which would help the IAF, as the IAF too operates the aircraft in carrying personnel and cargo. The IAF operates two squadrons of the mighty IL-76 aircraft and has about 12 of them in its inventory presently.
The decision to ground the fleet was taken by the Russian airforce following a spate of accidents in recent times. Airborne troops would be grounded till the time the ban is lifted. The accident took place near Moscow, when one of the wings of the aircraft was broken off by one of the four engines, after the pilot engaged full throttle during take-off, last week. In August, two Sukhoi-27 display aircraft collided with each other, killing one of the three pilots, while rehearsing for the MAKS-2009 airshow.
Also to decrease the accident rate, the IAF has prepared a report with safety measures to be implemented in the service after approval. The huge report, which has been prepared after a study carried out by four teams, will be implemented from top to bottom.
Air Marshal T S Randhawa, Director General of the IAF's Institute of Flight Safety, said at the recently concluded International Flight Safety conference, that the study was carried out after speaking to personnel in 35 airforce stations. Around 16 countries participated in the conference, held here.
Discussions were held on accidents through presentations, and then sent to all Commands. The report talks about handling the aircraft, training to be strengthened and reducing human error. Said Air Marshal Randhawa, "The aircraft is always safe, and its total technical safety is ensured before flying.But sometimes technical error may lead to human error.Efforts are on to improve air safety record. The rate is better than last year. Per 10,000 hours of flying, Category 1 accidents have come down. Worldwide the accident rate is calculated in terms of per 10,000 hours of flying done."
Inquiries into crashes fall under various categories, from one to five. Category-1 crashes are considered the most severe, in which the equipment and life are lost. According to the Flight Safety Institute parameters, the categories, from one to five, decrease from the most severe accidents to just incidents.
Last month a MiG-21 aircraft crashed in Punjab, killing the pilot, while there have been seven crashes this year, with the biggest being the first ever crash of the heavy-weight Sukhoi-30MKI in April this year in Rajasthan.
According to the latest Parliament figures, 34 service personnel have been killed in these accidents from 2007 till July 2009. The loss to civilian property amounts to more than Rs.six lakh, and the prime cause of these accidents are human error and technical defects.
In the past four years 37 aircraft and 19 helicopters have been lost in accidents.
Defence Minister A K Antony has said in Parliament that after each accident, an investigation is carried out and appropriate remedial actions are taken. Besides, a continuous and multi-faceted effort is always underway in the armed forces to enhance and upgrade flight safety. Measures to enhance the quality of training to improve the skills, ability to exercise sound judgment and situational awareness of pilots are being pursued. Constant interaction with Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs), both indigenous and foreign, is also maintained to overcome the technical defects of the aircraft.
Copyright: People's Post
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has put up a proposal with the Ministry of Defence (MoD), to have information about flight safety shared from friendly countries operating similiar aircraft, so as to have a huge database.
The proposal which came up recently, after the Russian airforce grounded its cargo aircraft, the IL-76, following an accident, is pending with the Ministry. The idea is to increase the database, which would help the IAF, as the IAF too operates the aircraft in carrying personnel and cargo. The IAF operates two squadrons of the mighty IL-76 aircraft and has about 12 of them in its inventory presently.
The decision to ground the fleet was taken by the Russian airforce following a spate of accidents in recent times. Airborne troops would be grounded till the time the ban is lifted. The accident took place near Moscow, when one of the wings of the aircraft was broken off by one of the four engines, after the pilot engaged full throttle during take-off, last week. In August, two Sukhoi-27 display aircraft collided with each other, killing one of the three pilots, while rehearsing for the MAKS-2009 airshow.
Also to decrease the accident rate, the IAF has prepared a report with safety measures to be implemented in the service after approval. The huge report, which has been prepared after a study carried out by four teams, will be implemented from top to bottom.
Air Marshal T S Randhawa, Director General of the IAF's Institute of Flight Safety, said at the recently concluded International Flight Safety conference, that the study was carried out after speaking to personnel in 35 airforce stations. Around 16 countries participated in the conference, held here.
Discussions were held on accidents through presentations, and then sent to all Commands. The report talks about handling the aircraft, training to be strengthened and reducing human error. Said Air Marshal Randhawa, "The aircraft is always safe, and its total technical safety is ensured before flying.But sometimes technical error may lead to human error.Efforts are on to improve air safety record. The rate is better than last year. Per 10,000 hours of flying, Category 1 accidents have come down. Worldwide the accident rate is calculated in terms of per 10,000 hours of flying done."
Inquiries into crashes fall under various categories, from one to five. Category-1 crashes are considered the most severe, in which the equipment and life are lost. According to the Flight Safety Institute parameters, the categories, from one to five, decrease from the most severe accidents to just incidents.
Last month a MiG-21 aircraft crashed in Punjab, killing the pilot, while there have been seven crashes this year, with the biggest being the first ever crash of the heavy-weight Sukhoi-30MKI in April this year in Rajasthan.
According to the latest Parliament figures, 34 service personnel have been killed in these accidents from 2007 till July 2009. The loss to civilian property amounts to more than Rs.six lakh, and the prime cause of these accidents are human error and technical defects.
In the past four years 37 aircraft and 19 helicopters have been lost in accidents.
Defence Minister A K Antony has said in Parliament that after each accident, an investigation is carried out and appropriate remedial actions are taken. Besides, a continuous and multi-faceted effort is always underway in the armed forces to enhance and upgrade flight safety. Measures to enhance the quality of training to improve the skills, ability to exercise sound judgment and situational awareness of pilots are being pursued. Constant interaction with Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs), both indigenous and foreign, is also maintained to overcome the technical defects of the aircraft.
Copyright: People's Post
brahmastra
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LCA Tejas moves towards IOC with five-week weapons trial news
19 October 2009
New Delhi: India's ambitious programme to develop a sophisticated light-weight fighter aircraft moved ahead another step with the Indian Air Force conducting a five-week multi-disciplinary trial with two Tejas aircraft at its Jamnagar air base in Gujarat. The trials take the programme closer to achieving Initial Operational Capability (IOC) - a task that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which manages the Tejas programme, is committed to achieve by the end of 2010.
"The trials entailed flight envelope expansion in various stores configurations, as well as air-to-ground weapon delivery trials in different modes of weapon delivery," a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official said here today.
According to officials, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) successfully demonstrated its ability to tackle targets designated visually by the pilot. With this phase behind it the LCA will now test its ability to let its on-board navigation and attack computers take on targets that are beyond visual range (BVR).
Defence sources said the five-week trials were conducted by the flight test crew of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) which included test pilots, flight test engineers and instrumentation specialists.
Officials also said that this, indeed, was the first time that the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has operated away from home base for so long.
The first squadron of the Mark-I LCA, with initial operational capability is scheduled to be inducted by the IAF by December 2010. In all the IAF is slated to induct around seven squadrons of the aircraft in its fleet. While the first two squadrons will be equipped with Mark-I, or IOC aircraft the remaining five squadrons will be the Mark-II version, an upgraded version of the aircraft that will match the likes of Saab Gripen JAS-39 in its capabilities.
The IOC configured squadrons will be equipped with the GE-404 engines while the remaining five squadrons will be equipped with either the GE-414 or the Eurojet 200 engines. DRDO is also in negotiations with various aircraft manufacturers to it in expanding the flight envelope of the aircraft.
http://www.domain-b.com/defence/air_space/iaf/20091019_five_week.html
19 October 2009
New Delhi: India's ambitious programme to develop a sophisticated light-weight fighter aircraft moved ahead another step with the Indian Air Force conducting a five-week multi-disciplinary trial with two Tejas aircraft at its Jamnagar air base in Gujarat. The trials take the programme closer to achieving Initial Operational Capability (IOC) - a task that the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which manages the Tejas programme, is committed to achieve by the end of 2010.
"The trials entailed flight envelope expansion in various stores configurations, as well as air-to-ground weapon delivery trials in different modes of weapon delivery," a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official said here today.
According to officials, the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) successfully demonstrated its ability to tackle targets designated visually by the pilot. With this phase behind it the LCA will now test its ability to let its on-board navigation and attack computers take on targets that are beyond visual range (BVR).
Defence sources said the five-week trials were conducted by the flight test crew of the National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) which included test pilots, flight test engineers and instrumentation specialists.
Officials also said that this, indeed, was the first time that the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft has operated away from home base for so long.
The first squadron of the Mark-I LCA, with initial operational capability is scheduled to be inducted by the IAF by December 2010. In all the IAF is slated to induct around seven squadrons of the aircraft in its fleet. While the first two squadrons will be equipped with Mark-I, or IOC aircraft the remaining five squadrons will be the Mark-II version, an upgraded version of the aircraft that will match the likes of Saab Gripen JAS-39 in its capabilities.
The IOC configured squadrons will be equipped with the GE-404 engines while the remaining five squadrons will be equipped with either the GE-414 or the Eurojet 200 engines. DRDO is also in negotiations with various aircraft manufacturers to it in expanding the flight envelope of the aircraft.
http://www.domain-b.com/defence/air_space/iaf/20091019_five_week.html
ironman
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Wednesday, October 21, 2009
The Indian Air Force Commanders Conference began at the Air Headquarters (Vayu Bhavan), in New Delhi today. The conference commenced with the inaugural address of the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik.
Addressing the Commanders, the Air Chief brought forth his vision of the Indian Air Force in view of the enhanced capabilities being acquired and a three pronged approach towards the modernization process of the IAF. A modernization process that would include preserving, maintaining, upgrading and improving the current assets as well as processing the cases for acquisitions and replacements on a fast track. The IAF has made rapid strides towards attaining net centricity and has to be capable of dominating the entire spectrum of information, cyberspace and air space, he said. He emphasized that the IAF besides continuing to air maintain troops and delivering more than 37,000 tons annually should continue to sharpen its core competencies to interface with the other services to generate the requisite capabilities.
The Commanders Conference would see the Air Officers Commanding-in-Chief of the IAF Commands carry out a data based review.
The Conference is attended by the top brass of the Indian Air Force comprising Air Officers Commanding-in-Chief of IAF Commands and the Principal Staff Officers of Air Headquarters. During the Commanders Conference the operational challenges before the IAF are discussed. Apart from this Flight Safety, Maintenance, Administrative and Logistical issues which impinge upon the operational effectiveness of Air Force would also taken up for discussions.
The Indian Air Force Commanders Conference began at the Air Headquarters (Vayu Bhavan), in New Delhi today. The conference commenced with the inaugural address of the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal PV Naik.
Addressing the Commanders, the Air Chief brought forth his vision of the Indian Air Force in view of the enhanced capabilities being acquired and a three pronged approach towards the modernization process of the IAF. A modernization process that would include preserving, maintaining, upgrading and improving the current assets as well as processing the cases for acquisitions and replacements on a fast track. The IAF has made rapid strides towards attaining net centricity and has to be capable of dominating the entire spectrum of information, cyberspace and air space, he said. He emphasized that the IAF besides continuing to air maintain troops and delivering more than 37,000 tons annually should continue to sharpen its core competencies to interface with the other services to generate the requisite capabilities.
The Commanders Conference would see the Air Officers Commanding-in-Chief of the IAF Commands carry out a data based review.
The Conference is attended by the top brass of the Indian Air Force comprising Air Officers Commanding-in-Chief of IAF Commands and the Principal Staff Officers of Air Headquarters. During the Commanders Conference the operational challenges before the IAF are discussed. Apart from this Flight Safety, Maintenance, Administrative and Logistical issues which impinge upon the operational effectiveness of Air Force would also taken up for discussions.
sudhir007
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Russia setting, US rising in Indian air force IDRW.ORG
Russia setting, US rising in Indian air force
Russia’s eclipse and the US’ rise in the Indian militarywill soon stand out in the air force’s transport division.
Sources said the government is moving in to seal yet another government-to-government deal with the US for a military purchase. They are ordering ten C-17 Globemaster transport aircraft.
The deal is worth over $2 billion (Rs10,000 crore). When inducted, C-17 Globemaster would replace the Russian-made IL-76 as the biggest transport aircraft of India. C-17, a Boeing product, can carry almost 80,000 kg, against IL-76’s 50,000 kg.
Sources said the C-17 deal was discussed and “almost finalised” at a recent meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council, under the defence minister, and the deal could be signed in a few months.
Globemaster can be operated by just two pilots and another crew, whereas the much smaller IL-76 needs a crew of six. Comfort levels, too, are dramatic. The deal finalisation comes even as the air force readies to induce six C-130J Super Hercules transport planes, that can carry a payload of 20,000 kg, in 2011.
Presently, the IAF’s fixed-wing fleet comprises 20 Russian made IL-76 and over a 100 AN-32s. The Globemaster and C-130J are set to significantly alter Russian dominance.
Meanwhile, US firms are making an aggressive pitch to corner contracts for transport helicopters, dominated by Russians all these decades. Boeing today said it submitted two proposals to the IAF this week — the AH-64D Apache and the CH-47F Chinook for attack and heavy-lift helicopter operations.
Air force is enthusiastic about the Chinooks.
Russia setting, US rising in Indian air force
Russia’s eclipse and the US’ rise in the Indian militarywill soon stand out in the air force’s transport division.
Sources said the government is moving in to seal yet another government-to-government deal with the US for a military purchase. They are ordering ten C-17 Globemaster transport aircraft.
The deal is worth over $2 billion (Rs10,000 crore). When inducted, C-17 Globemaster would replace the Russian-made IL-76 as the biggest transport aircraft of India. C-17, a Boeing product, can carry almost 80,000 kg, against IL-76’s 50,000 kg.
Sources said the C-17 deal was discussed and “almost finalised” at a recent meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council, under the defence minister, and the deal could be signed in a few months.
Globemaster can be operated by just two pilots and another crew, whereas the much smaller IL-76 needs a crew of six. Comfort levels, too, are dramatic. The deal finalisation comes even as the air force readies to induce six C-130J Super Hercules transport planes, that can carry a payload of 20,000 kg, in 2011.
Presently, the IAF’s fixed-wing fleet comprises 20 Russian made IL-76 and over a 100 AN-32s. The Globemaster and C-130J are set to significantly alter Russian dominance.
Meanwhile, US firms are making an aggressive pitch to corner contracts for transport helicopters, dominated by Russians all these decades. Boeing today said it submitted two proposals to the IAF this week — the AH-64D Apache and the CH-47F Chinook for attack and heavy-lift helicopter operations.
Air force is enthusiastic about the Chinooks.
AS POSTED BY Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
New Delhi Television (NDTV)
Hi there .. there was a briefing from "team Hornet" yesterday ... which included participation from GE and Raytheon ...
Here are a few of the major points ...
As far as the transfer of source codes for AESA is concerned ... they are still at the "Can't discuss in an open forum ... lets see how this plays out" mode. At the same time, the fact that India has agreed to the US end user agreement during Hillary Clinton's visit here means that the full up Super Hornet IN ... inclusive of the upgraded GE F-414 engine, the APG 79 AESA and other key systems are cleared for transfer ... so its quite possible that the version of the AESA offered will be full-spec ... In fact, I am sure, India would not accept anything less than that ...
Secondly February 2010 is the big date for the IAF and the next phase of the Hornet trials ... There will be an evaluation of the following ...
1. Mission systems flight evaluation
2. AESA
3. FLIR
4. EW
5. Weapon delivery
6. Maintenance evaluation
7. Technical evaluation.
All this will be done at the Naval Air Station Lemoore in California, the same base from where I flew the second of my Super Hornet sorties.
Boeing reps repeatedly state that the AESA will be evaluated in conjunction with other systems ... ie ... the data link, FLIR etc to showcase the full package ...
As far as AESA is concerned ... the Boeing, Raytheon team seemed to take on their European rivals who are still developing/integrating their product. They explained how it took EIGHT years for the APG-79 to move from low rate initial production to first operational deployment. The dates are as follows ...
* June '03 ... Low rate initial production
* December '06 ... Operational evaluation completed.
*'07 ... Initial Operational clearance
* 07/'07 ... Full scale production approva
* 05/'08 ... First operational deployment.
The APG-79 has 1000 hours mean time between failures, more than 75,000 operational flight hours, its been approved for sale to India and will be sustained in US service beyond 2035.
The proposed GE F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) for India offers a 20 per cent increase in thrust and a 1 per cent reduction in fuel burn. The F414 is itself in the 22,000 lb thrust class, 170 lb/second airflow. Engine change is done in under 30 minutes, interchangeable left and right engine installation. No need for a functional check flight after engine change. No throttle restrictions while in operation (I have personally witnessed this ... its amazing ... you can pretty much do what you want with the throttle ... slam it to burner and take it back as much as you want ... nothing happens).
They WILL offer the Indian Air Force an out and out 9g fighter ... this has been a promise made by the Boeing team. I was led to believe this involves changes in the flight control system ... the airframe itself is OK for 9g.
The bottom line ... this is a rugged, proven, operational platform, which is now available to India at a cost NOT too much over its single engine competitors in the MMRCA race.
As far as their performance in the trials in Bangalore are concerned ... they say that they are satisfied with what they were able to demonstrate to the Indian Air Force but reiterate that its the IAF which has to be satisfied.
Well i hope thats why china is so afraid of US and Indian partnership.
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
New Delhi Television (NDTV)
Hi there .. there was a briefing from "team Hornet" yesterday ... which included participation from GE and Raytheon ...
Here are a few of the major points ...
As far as the transfer of source codes for AESA is concerned ... they are still at the "Can't discuss in an open forum ... lets see how this plays out" mode. At the same time, the fact that India has agreed to the US end user agreement during Hillary Clinton's visit here means that the full up Super Hornet IN ... inclusive of the upgraded GE F-414 engine, the APG 79 AESA and other key systems are cleared for transfer ... so its quite possible that the version of the AESA offered will be full-spec ... In fact, I am sure, India would not accept anything less than that ...
Secondly February 2010 is the big date for the IAF and the next phase of the Hornet trials ... There will be an evaluation of the following ...
1. Mission systems flight evaluation
2. AESA
3. FLIR
4. EW
5. Weapon delivery
6. Maintenance evaluation
7. Technical evaluation.
All this will be done at the Naval Air Station Lemoore in California, the same base from where I flew the second of my Super Hornet sorties.
Boeing reps repeatedly state that the AESA will be evaluated in conjunction with other systems ... ie ... the data link, FLIR etc to showcase the full package ...
As far as AESA is concerned ... the Boeing, Raytheon team seemed to take on their European rivals who are still developing/integrating their product. They explained how it took EIGHT years for the APG-79 to move from low rate initial production to first operational deployment. The dates are as follows ...
* June '03 ... Low rate initial production
* December '06 ... Operational evaluation completed.
*'07 ... Initial Operational clearance
* 07/'07 ... Full scale production approva
* 05/'08 ... First operational deployment.
The APG-79 has 1000 hours mean time between failures, more than 75,000 operational flight hours, its been approved for sale to India and will be sustained in US service beyond 2035.
The proposed GE F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) for India offers a 20 per cent increase in thrust and a 1 per cent reduction in fuel burn. The F414 is itself in the 22,000 lb thrust class, 170 lb/second airflow. Engine change is done in under 30 minutes, interchangeable left and right engine installation. No need for a functional check flight after engine change. No throttle restrictions while in operation (I have personally witnessed this ... its amazing ... you can pretty much do what you want with the throttle ... slam it to burner and take it back as much as you want ... nothing happens).
They WILL offer the Indian Air Force an out and out 9g fighter ... this has been a promise made by the Boeing team. I was led to believe this involves changes in the flight control system ... the airframe itself is OK for 9g.
The bottom line ... this is a rugged, proven, operational platform, which is now available to India at a cost NOT too much over its single engine competitors in the MMRCA race.
As far as their performance in the trials in Bangalore are concerned ... they say that they are satisfied with what they were able to demonstrate to the Indian Air Force but reiterate that its the IAF which has to be satisfied.
Well i hope thats why china is so afraid of US and Indian partnership.
AS POSTED BY Vishnu Som
Associate Editor and Senior Anchor
New Delhi Television (NDTV)
Hi there .. there was a briefing from "team Hornet" yesterday ... which included participation from GE and Raytheon ...
Here are a few of the major points ...
As far as the transfer of source codes for AESA is concerned ... they are still at the "Can't discuss in an open forum ... lets see how this plays out" mode. At the same time, the fact that India has agreed to the US end user agreement during Hillary Clinton's visit here means that the full up Super Hornet IN ... inclusive of the upgraded GE F-414 engine, the APG 79 AESA and other key systems are cleared for transfer ... so its quite possible that the version of the AESA offered will be full-spec ... In fact, I am sure, India would not accept anything less than that ...
Secondly February 2010 is the big date for the IAF and the next phase of the Hornet trials ... There will be an evaluation of the following ...
1. Mission systems flight evaluation
2. AESA
3. FLIR
4. EW
5. Weapon delivery
6. Maintenance evaluation
7. Technical evaluation.
All this will be done at the Naval Air Station Lemoore in California, the same base from where I flew the second of my Super Hornet sorties.
Boeing reps repeatedly state that the AESA will be evaluated in conjunction with other systems ... ie ... the data link, FLIR etc to showcase the full package ...
As far as AESA is concerned ... the Boeing, Raytheon team seemed to take on their European rivals who are still developing/integrating their product. They explained how it took EIGHT years for the APG-79 to move from low rate initial production to first operational deployment. The dates are as follows ...
* June '03 ... Low rate initial production
* December '06 ... Operational evaluation completed.
*'07 ... Initial Operational clearance
* 07/'07 ... Full scale production approva
* 05/'08 ... First operational deployment.
The APG-79 has 1000 hours mean time between failures, more than 75,000 operational flight hours, its been approved for sale to India and will be sustained in US service beyond 2035.
The proposed GE F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) for India offers a 20 per cent increase in thrust and a 1 per cent reduction in fuel burn. The F414 is itself in the 22,000 lb thrust class, 170 lb/second airflow. Engine change is done in under 30 minutes, interchangeable left and right engine installation. No need for a functional check flight after engine change. No throttle restrictions while in operation (I have personally witnessed this ... its amazing ... you can pretty much do what you want with the throttle ... slam it to burner and take it back as much as you want ... nothing happens).
They WILL offer the Indian Air Force an out and out 9g fighter ... this has been a promise made by the Boeing team. I was led to believe this involves changes in the flight control system ... the airframe itself is OK for 9g.
The bottom line ... this is a rugged, proven, operational platform, which is now available to India at a cost NOT too much over its single engine competitors in the MMRCA race.
As far as their performance in the trials in Bangalore are concerned ... they say that they are satisfied with what they were able to demonstrate to the Indian Air Force but reiterate that its the IAF which has to be satisfied.
Well i hope thats why china is so afraid of US and Indian partnership.
The offer is tempting, but doesn't the team hornet need approval from us government for what to sell and what not to, what technology to be transferred etc? In future, if US is not happy with us at some trivial, ignorable matter like another nuclear test or war with pak
, would not hornet fleet get affected by sanctions?
Last edited:
marcos98
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Prez to become first Indian woman to fly in Sukhoi 30 mki
For once, President Pratibha Patil will don a G-suit instead of her trademark sari as she flies in a Sukhoi-30 MKI - a frontline fighter jet of the Indian Air Force (IAF) - next month.
Patil, 74, is expected to board one of the Sukhois based in Lohegaon, Pune, and will make history of sorts by becoming the first woman to fly in an IAF war plane. The President is the supreme commander of the Indian armed forces. "The president will be flying in a Sukhoi soon. It should happen by November end," a senior IAF official told IANS without divulging further details.
Patil, who will be following in the footsteps of her predecessor APJ Abdul Kalam, will be undergoing mandatory health tests before the sortie. The first woman President of the country, Patil would also become the first woman to fly in an IAF war plane. The air force currently has 784 women officers working in different branches, barring the fighter stream. Earlier, Kalam, the father of the Indian missile programme, had taken a ride in a submarine in 2006 and followed it up with a sortie in a Sukhoi the same year.
For once, President Pratibha Patil will don a G-suit instead of her trademark sari as she flies in a Sukhoi-30 MKI - a frontline fighter jet of the Indian Air Force (IAF) - next month.
Patil, 74, is expected to board one of the Sukhois based in Lohegaon, Pune, and will make history of sorts by becoming the first woman to fly in an IAF war plane. The President is the supreme commander of the Indian armed forces. "The president will be flying in a Sukhoi soon. It should happen by November end," a senior IAF official told IANS without divulging further details.
Patil, who will be following in the footsteps of her predecessor APJ Abdul Kalam, will be undergoing mandatory health tests before the sortie. The first woman President of the country, Patil would also become the first woman to fly in an IAF war plane. The air force currently has 784 women officers working in different branches, barring the fighter stream. Earlier, Kalam, the father of the Indian missile programme, had taken a ride in a submarine in 2006 and followed it up with a sortie in a Sukhoi the same year.
ironman
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IAF signed contract for 5th generation fighter jet with Russia
PTI, Friday, October 30, 2009 20:50 ISTPathankot: In a bid to add more teeth to its existing armoury, Indian Air Force has signed a contract with Russia recently to procure the fifth generation fighter aircraft under its modernisation programme.
"As a modernisation programme of the IAF, we have recently signed an official agreement with Russia for procurement of fifth generation attack aircrafts," air chief marshal PV Naik told reporters on the concluding day of his two-day visit to Air Force Station, Pathankot today.
"This deal is a part of the modernisation plan under which 126 Medium Multi-role combat Aircrafts, which are coming will translate to 10 new squadrons," Naik said. He added that IAF is in the process of procuring MMRCAs, C-79 aircrafts, C001 aircrafts, new airborne early warning systems, attack helicopters, aerostat radars, VVIP helicopters, heavy load helicopters besides upgrading MIG-29, AN-32, Sukhois and Mirage fighter jets.
Referring to the upgradation programme, the COAS said, "What you cannot get from elsewhere needs to be upgraded. If there is residual life left in any system, you cannot throw it out, but upgrade it." Planning is done on four basic pillars of modernisation, Naik said adding that first is to develop systems including satellites and radars to see enemy movements first and communicate fast.
Second pillar is to have a "reach", he said adding,"When you see, you should reach the farthest place. So for this, we have fighter jets and air-to-air refuelling in place". The third is to "hit" at adversary and fourth is to save and safeguard the country, he said adding that this planning needs to be fool-proof and accurate.
On a question about his recent statement that India has one-third of China's airpower, Air Chief Marshal Naik said, "Why should we compare with China. We have nothing to do with it.I will focus on building my own capability." To another question about Chinese air-power, he said, "There is nothing to worry. We are capable."
"The Long-Term Perspective Planning will shape IAF in next 10 to 15 years. We have also focus on the space warfare, which is emerging as major sector of the defence security," he said.
On Pakistan getting new aircrafts and other defence systems in their existing fleet, he said,"Nobody should undermine IAF's capabilities. If our neighbours are purchasing new aircrafts from the US, India is also procuring MMRCAs, attack helicopters, radars, AEWSs."
"The IAF is constantly updating and evolving new techniques and training well. We should be well prepared to meet any external threat," he said and pointed out at IAF's special training exercises recently with the US and Oman.
"Currently one more exercise is going on," he said adding that the IAF has performed very well.Indian Air Force will complete technical evaluation of the six foreign fighter jets by April next year before procurement.
"The test trials and technical evaluation of the six fighter jets will be completed by April next year. They are being subjected to different terrain and weather conditions in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh," Naik told reporters.
Naik said that test trial of the F-16, F-18(USA), Rafael (France) and MIG-35(Russia) has been completed and for the rest it is going on. Besides these, other fighter aircrafts under process of technical evaluation are Gripen(Sweden) and Eurofighter(UK). "After test evaluation is completed, we will move further for procurement," he said.
jupiter2007
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IAF signed contract for 5th generation fighter jet with RussiaPTI, Friday, October 30, 2009 20:50 IST
Pathankot: In a bid to add more teeth to its existing armoury, Indian Air Force has signed a contract with Russia recently to procure the fifth generation fighter aircraft under its modernisation programme.
"As a modernisation programme of the IAF, we have recently signed an official agreement with Russia for procurement of fifth generation attack aircrafts," air chief marshal PV Naik told reporters on the concluding day of his two-day visit to Air Force Station, Pathankot today.
"This deal is a part of the modernisation plan under which 126 Medium Multi-role combat Aircrafts, which are coming will translate to 10 new squadrons," Naik said. He added that IAF is in the process of procuring MMRCAs, C-79 aircrafts, C001 aircrafts, new airborne early warning systems, attack helicopters, aerostat radars, VVIP helicopters, heavy load helicopters besides upgrading MIG-29, AN-32, Sukhois and Mirage fighter jets.
Referring to the upgradation programme, the COAS said, "What you cannot get from elsewhere needs to be upgraded. If there is residual life left in any system, you cannot throw it out, but upgrade it." Planning is done on four basic pillars of modernisation, Naik said adding that first is to develop systems including satellites and radars to see enemy movements first and communicate fast.
Second pillar is to have a "reach", he said adding,"When you see, you should reach the farthest place. So for this, we have fighter jets and air-to-air refuelling in place". The third is to "hit" at adversary and fourth is to save and safeguard the country, he said adding that this planning needs to be fool-proof and accurate.
On a question about his recent statement that India has one-third of China's airpower, Air Chief Marshal Naik said, "Why should we compare with China. We have nothing to do with it.I will focus on building my own capability." To another question about Chinese air-power, he said, "There is nothing to worry. We are capable."
"The Long-Term Perspective Planning will shape IAF in next 10 to 15 years. We have also focus on the space warfare, which is emerging as major sector of the defence security," he said.
On Pakistan getting new aircrafts and other defence systems in their existing fleet, he said,"Nobody should undermine IAF's capabilities. If our neighbours are purchasing new aircrafts from the US, India is also procuring MMRCAs, attack helicopters, radars, AEWSs."
"The IAF is constantly updating and evolving new techniques and training well. We should be well prepared to meet any external threat," he said and pointed out at IAF's special training exercises recently with the US and Oman.
"Currently one more exercise is going on," he said adding that the IAF has performed very well.Indian Air Force will complete technical evaluation of the six foreign fighter jets by April next year before procurement.
"The test trials and technical evaluation of the six fighter jets will be completed by April next year. They are being subjected to different terrain and weather conditions in Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh," Naik told reporters.
Naik said that test trial of the F-16, F-18(USA), Rafael (France) and MIG-35(Russia) has been completed and for the rest it is going on. Besides these, other fighter aircrafts under process of technical evaluation are Gripen(Sweden) and Eurofighter(UK). "After test evaluation is completed, we will move further for procurement," he said.
I have been hearing about "India's plan to buy 126 multi-role combat fighter" since 2003. There are thousands of article and thousands thread open and varies forums to discuss this but nothing happened so far and nothing is going to happened until probably 2015.
Chanakyaa
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Current Status :
On 27 May 2009 Indian Air Force completed the technical evaluation of all 6 fighter jets. Air chief marshal Fali H. Major told the press that the reports had been submitted to the ministry of defence. The aircraft will be put through a rigorous testing process at Bangalore, Jaisalmer and Leh. The aircraft will undergo technical and humid condition tests in Bangalore. Desert trials will be conducted in Jaisalmer, Rajasthan and High-altitude and mountainous condition trials will be conducted at Leh in Ladakh.[15]
Flight evaluation of the fighters started in August 2009 at Bangalore.[66] The F/A-18E/F and F-16IN completed their field trials by mid-September 2009.[67] The Rafale began trails in late September 2009.[68] As of late October 2009, the IAF has completed the trials of F/A-18, F-16, Rafale, and MiG-35. According to Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, all the aircraft tested so far "are going neck and neck".[69]
RPK
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IAF's 48 sq completes 50 glorious years - Chandigarh - City - The Times of India
CHANDIGARH: The city-based 48 squadron of the Indian Air Force, which flies Russian-built AN-32 medium lift tactical transport aircraft is
celebrating its golden jubilee for completing 50 commendable years.
The squadron has scripted several new chapters in the aviation sector by landing at various strategic locations at high altitudes and inaccessible places.
Famously called - Himalayan Lifeline or camel - the 48 squadron is familiar with each peak, valley, river, lake, and international borders with China and Pakistan.
The squadron was equipped with the Russian built AN-32 tactical transport aircraft for high altitude operations at Allahabad in 1985.
The following year, it moved to Chandigarh and since then, it has been the lifeline for all air maintenance activities in Jammu and Kashmir, para-dropping loads in the Siachen sector and landing at high altitude forward bases in Leh, Thoise, DBO, Fukche and Nyoma, in harsh conditions and inhospitable terrains, often beyond the aircraft maneuvering envelope.
The squadron was raised at Barrackpore, Srinagar, in 1959 and was initially equipped with six Dakotas, workhorse of the IAF at that time. During hostilities in 1962, the squadron operated in the Eastern Sector, airlifting troops and military hardware, besides evacuating civilians from forward locations.
In 1965, it was actively engaged in airlifting of troops and armament in both the western and eastern sectors and was also employed for the movement of fighter squadrons and their associated equipment to their operational locations.
During the 1971 Indo-Pak war, the camel squadron played a major role as they carried arms and ammunition to Agartala, evacuated displaced civilians and airlifted casualties.
The squadron aircraft led by the its commanding officer (CO) group captain SC Chafekar has undertaken several world records like landing at the highest advanced landing ground (short, high altitude, kutcha airstrip) in the world at DBO at 16,200 feet, followed by trial landings at Fukche and Nyoma, both above 13,500 feet.
Driven by the motto - Sahasam Falati Sarvatraha, Shaurya Chakra awardee Gp Capt Chafekar told TOI, "We have achieved these feats because of the efforts put by our team."
The squadron was awarded the Presidents Colours in February 2007 for its contribution to the country.
The squadron has been involved in many military and civil operations - 1962, 1965, 1971, IPKF, CACTUS, Safed Sagar, Parakram, Bhuj and Tsunami relief etc. This is a great moment of pride for the squadron members.
CHANDIGARH: The city-based 48 squadron of the Indian Air Force, which flies Russian-built AN-32 medium lift tactical transport aircraft is
celebrating its golden jubilee for completing 50 commendable years.
The squadron has scripted several new chapters in the aviation sector by landing at various strategic locations at high altitudes and inaccessible places.
Famously called - Himalayan Lifeline or camel - the 48 squadron is familiar with each peak, valley, river, lake, and international borders with China and Pakistan.
The squadron was equipped with the Russian built AN-32 tactical transport aircraft for high altitude operations at Allahabad in 1985.
The following year, it moved to Chandigarh and since then, it has been the lifeline for all air maintenance activities in Jammu and Kashmir, para-dropping loads in the Siachen sector and landing at high altitude forward bases in Leh, Thoise, DBO, Fukche and Nyoma, in harsh conditions and inhospitable terrains, often beyond the aircraft maneuvering envelope.
The squadron was raised at Barrackpore, Srinagar, in 1959 and was initially equipped with six Dakotas, workhorse of the IAF at that time. During hostilities in 1962, the squadron operated in the Eastern Sector, airlifting troops and military hardware, besides evacuating civilians from forward locations.
In 1965, it was actively engaged in airlifting of troops and armament in both the western and eastern sectors and was also employed for the movement of fighter squadrons and their associated equipment to their operational locations.
During the 1971 Indo-Pak war, the camel squadron played a major role as they carried arms and ammunition to Agartala, evacuated displaced civilians and airlifted casualties.
The squadron aircraft led by the its commanding officer (CO) group captain SC Chafekar has undertaken several world records like landing at the highest advanced landing ground (short, high altitude, kutcha airstrip) in the world at DBO at 16,200 feet, followed by trial landings at Fukche and Nyoma, both above 13,500 feet.
Driven by the motto - Sahasam Falati Sarvatraha, Shaurya Chakra awardee Gp Capt Chafekar told TOI, "We have achieved these feats because of the efforts put by our team."
The squadron was awarded the Presidents Colours in February 2007 for its contribution to the country.
The squadron has been involved in many military and civil operations - 1962, 1965, 1971, IPKF, CACTUS, Safed Sagar, Parakram, Bhuj and Tsunami relief etc. This is a great moment of pride for the squadron members.
amunhotep
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Plans to replace the ageing Cheetah and Chetak chopper fleet of the Indian Army and Air Force are set to get delayed, thanks to indecision of the Defence Ministry over conducting of the field trials. The original plan was to induct 197 Light Utility Helicopters (LUHs) starting from 2009-10 but the process has not moved beyond the Request for Proposal stage and the vendors response to it.
here is the link
ASIAN DEFENCE: Plans to replace Cheetah and Chetak chopper to get delayed:India
here is the link
ASIAN DEFENCE: Plans to replace Cheetah and Chetak chopper to get delayed:India
Last edited:
amunhotep
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In a finding that has alarmed India..........chinese spare-parts were used in top secret encryption devices used by the IAF
the presence of chinese spare-parts will allow china to decode indian codes or eavesdrop on the IAF
here is the link
ASIAN DEFENCE: Chinese parts in IAF encryption devices prompt security probe
the presence of chinese spare-parts will allow china to decode indian codes or eavesdrop on the IAF
here is the link
ASIAN DEFENCE: Chinese parts in IAF encryption devices prompt security probe
sudhir007
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The cockpit simulator developed by the DIPR for its computerised pilot selection system
“TOMORROW’S war will be a war of minds,” says Manas K. Mandal, Director, Defence Institute of Psychological Research (DIPR), New Delhi, a premier institute of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). “So the importance of our laboratory has gone up. The range of activities we do with a small band of people is enormous.” The DIPR, according to its Director, has the largest number of psychologists under one umbrella. Its staff includes 45 psychologists, 30 scientists and six officers belonging to the services. They psychologically fortify soldiers to face low-intensity conflicts, devise tests for the selection of officers of the armed forces, test the aptitude of those aspiring to be sharpshooters or drivers of battle tanks, carry out personality profiling of National Security Guard (NSG) commandos and conduct mass counselling for victims of natural disasters. Mandal himself is a reputed psychologist who was a professor of psychology at the Department of Humanities and Social Sciences at the Indian Institute of Technology at Kharagpur before taking over as Director of the DIPR in January 2004. A Fulbright Fellow, he was a researcher in cognition and experimental neuropsychology, and a Fulbright lecturer at Harvard University.
The DIPR began in 1943 as an experimental board in Dehradun to select officers for the armed forces. After Independence, when the armed forces were reorganised, a need was felt to establish a dedicated research cell that would look into not only the scientific aspects of officer selection but also the psychological requirements. So in 1949, the experimental board, renamed the Psychological Research Wing, was mandated to devise tests to probe the intelligence and persona of those aspiring to become officers in the services, to follow up on candidates during training, and to assess on-job performance. In 1962, the Psychological Research Wing was redesignated Directorate of Psychological Research (DPR) to carry out research on soldiers’ morale, ideological convictions, job satisfaction, behaviour in high-altitude tests, civil-military relationship, and so on.
In 1982, the DPR was renamed the DIPR. Since then, “it has emerged as a centre of importance in military psychology, dealing with research activities pertaining to personnel selection, placement and trade allocation”, said Mandal. However, what makes the DIPR’s job difficult is that India’s armed forces are man-intensive. “Besides, this job cannot be outsourced,” Mandal noted. Over a period of time, the DIPR has standardised a battery of tests to assess the intelligence and personality of those wanting to become officers and to allocate a trade to them. These tests are validated constantly. The DIPR interacts with the headquarters of the Army, the Navy and the Indian Air Force and with the 15 service selection boards and the Air Force selection boards, providing them with psychological inputs in the selection of officers and personnel.
Arunima Gupta, scientist, DIPR, said, “There is no hire and fire in the armed forces. So the right kind of selection is crucial.”
According to Arunima Gupta, the DIPR assists soldiers to cope with extreme conditions such as the icy winds of high-altitude Siachen, the heat waves of Rajasthan and the confined atmosphere of submarines. It prepares soldiers to face qualitatively different situations in non-conventional warfare. “Psychologically training people to fight at high altitudes and in low-intensity conflict areas is not a joke,” said Mandal.
Low-intensity conflicts pose special challenges to soldiers. “It is not clear who the enemy is. It is not a declared war. The DIPR has to look into all this and how to match the human resources with these situations,” said Arunima Gupta. The main thing in such situations is maintaining the morale of soldiers. “We give psychological inputs to young commanders and soldiers and tell them to be on the lookout for warning signals [of aberrant behaviour] and how to manage a crisis,” she said. They are trained to manage combat-related stress.
K. Ramachandran, Additional Director, DIPR, said the DIPR takes the help of priests in temples attached to Army cantonments or camps to counsel stressed-out soldiers. “We have trained them to play the role of counsellors for soldiers under stress,” he said.
Mass trauma
R.V. MOORTHY
Manas Mandal, Director, DIPR.
During times of mass trauma, the DIPR’s experts play a critical role. Mandal said: “When there is a bomb blast, 10 persons may die, but hundreds around are traumatised.” In such situations, groups of DIPR psychologists visit the injured persons or the families of the victims of mass trauma, speak to them, get to know their problems and counsel them. “We take care of their psychological problems while the DRDO’s doctors take care of the victims’ medical problems,” said Ramachandran. Psychologists of the DIPR made repeated visits to Latur in Maharashtra after the earthquake in September 1993, to Orissa after the super cyclone of October 1999 and to Nagapattinam in Tamil Nadu after the tsunami in December 2004 and counselled hundreds of traumatised people. For soldiers posted in the icy expanse of Siachen, “our role is to help them adapt quickly”, said Ramachandran. For those who are on the threshold of breaking down, “we provide stress inoculation courses – the mental stubbornness that is needed during their stay in Siachen”.
The DIPR has devised a computerised pilot selection system (CPSS). As a booklet on it points out, a fighter pilot in addition to having flying skills should be a systems manager. The CPSS evaluates qualities such as psychomotor and information-processing skills and the candidates’ ability to perform multiple tasks simultaneously. It entails 12 tests to assess psychomotor skills and nine cognitive tests.
The main controller unit, that is, the Black Box, for the CPSS was developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), Bangalore, and the DIPR. The Black Box is “a kind of password” because the tests cannot be run without it. The tests are backed by 20 years of research and development of DIPR scientists. The simulator on which the CPSS is run received the Agni award in 2005 from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for self-reliance in technology.
The DIPR has a number of publications to its credit. Its psychologists and scientists have brought out manuals such as “Stress and its Management”, “Deceit Detection and Interrogation”, “Suicide and Fratricide: Dynamics and Management: A Field Manual for Officers”, “Managing Emotions in Daily Life and at Workplace”, “Propaganda – Field Manual for Armed Forces”, and “Overcoming Obsolescence and Becoming Creative in R&D Environment”.
Said Mandal: “We began our journey with a selection system in 1943. We have now spread our wings
Of men and minds
“TOMORROW’S war will be a war of minds,” says Manas K. Mandal, Director, Defence Institute of Psychological Research (DIPR), New Delhi, a premier institute of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). “So the importance of our laboratory has gone up. The range of activities we do with a small band of people is enormous.” The DIPR, according to its Director, has the largest number of psychologists under one umbrella. Its staff includes 45 psychologists, 30 scientists and six officers belonging to the services. They psychologically fortify soldiers to face low-intensity conflicts, devise tests for the selection of officers of the armed forces, test the aptitude of those aspiring to be sharpshooters or drivers of battle tanks, carry out personality profiling of National Security Guard (NSG) commandos and conduct mass counselling for victims of natural disasters. Mandal himself is a reputed psychologist who was a professor of psychology at the Department of Humanities and Social Sciences at the Indian Institute of Technology at Kharagpur before taking over as Director of the DIPR in January 2004. A Fulbright Fellow, he was a researcher in cognition and experimental neuropsychology, and a Fulbright lecturer at Harvard University.
The DIPR began in 1943 as an experimental board in Dehradun to select officers for the armed forces. After Independence, when the armed forces were reorganised, a need was felt to establish a dedicated research cell that would look into not only the scientific aspects of officer selection but also the psychological requirements. So in 1949, the experimental board, renamed the Psychological Research Wing, was mandated to devise tests to probe the intelligence and persona of those aspiring to become officers in the services, to follow up on candidates during training, and to assess on-job performance. In 1962, the Psychological Research Wing was redesignated Directorate of Psychological Research (DPR) to carry out research on soldiers’ morale, ideological convictions, job satisfaction, behaviour in high-altitude tests, civil-military relationship, and so on.
In 1982, the DPR was renamed the DIPR. Since then, “it has emerged as a centre of importance in military psychology, dealing with research activities pertaining to personnel selection, placement and trade allocation”, said Mandal. However, what makes the DIPR’s job difficult is that India’s armed forces are man-intensive. “Besides, this job cannot be outsourced,” Mandal noted. Over a period of time, the DIPR has standardised a battery of tests to assess the intelligence and personality of those wanting to become officers and to allocate a trade to them. These tests are validated constantly. The DIPR interacts with the headquarters of the Army, the Navy and the Indian Air Force and with the 15 service selection boards and the Air Force selection boards, providing them with psychological inputs in the selection of officers and personnel.
Arunima Gupta, scientist, DIPR, said, “There is no hire and fire in the armed forces. So the right kind of selection is crucial.”
According to Arunima Gupta, the DIPR assists soldiers to cope with extreme conditions such as the icy winds of high-altitude Siachen, the heat waves of Rajasthan and the confined atmosphere of submarines. It prepares soldiers to face qualitatively different situations in non-conventional warfare. “Psychologically training people to fight at high altitudes and in low-intensity conflict areas is not a joke,” said Mandal.
Low-intensity conflicts pose special challenges to soldiers. “It is not clear who the enemy is. It is not a declared war. The DIPR has to look into all this and how to match the human resources with these situations,” said Arunima Gupta. The main thing in such situations is maintaining the morale of soldiers. “We give psychological inputs to young commanders and soldiers and tell them to be on the lookout for warning signals [of aberrant behaviour] and how to manage a crisis,” she said. They are trained to manage combat-related stress.
K. Ramachandran, Additional Director, DIPR, said the DIPR takes the help of priests in temples attached to Army cantonments or camps to counsel stressed-out soldiers. “We have trained them to play the role of counsellors for soldiers under stress,” he said.
Mass trauma
R.V. MOORTHY
Manas Mandal, Director, DIPR.
During times of mass trauma, the DIPR’s experts play a critical role. Mandal said: “When there is a bomb blast, 10 persons may die, but hundreds around are traumatised.” In such situations, groups of DIPR psychologists visit the injured persons or the families of the victims of mass trauma, speak to them, get to know their problems and counsel them. “We take care of their psychological problems while the DRDO’s doctors take care of the victims’ medical problems,” said Ramachandran. Psychologists of the DIPR made repeated visits to Latur in Maharashtra after the earthquake in September 1993, to Orissa after the super cyclone of October 1999 and to Nagapattinam in Tamil Nadu after the tsunami in December 2004 and counselled hundreds of traumatised people. For soldiers posted in the icy expanse of Siachen, “our role is to help them adapt quickly”, said Ramachandran. For those who are on the threshold of breaking down, “we provide stress inoculation courses – the mental stubbornness that is needed during their stay in Siachen”.
The DIPR has devised a computerised pilot selection system (CPSS). As a booklet on it points out, a fighter pilot in addition to having flying skills should be a systems manager. The CPSS evaluates qualities such as psychomotor and information-processing skills and the candidates’ ability to perform multiple tasks simultaneously. It entails 12 tests to assess psychomotor skills and nine cognitive tests.
The main controller unit, that is, the Black Box, for the CPSS was developed by the Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), Bangalore, and the DIPR. The Black Box is “a kind of password” because the tests cannot be run without it. The tests are backed by 20 years of research and development of DIPR scientists. The simulator on which the CPSS is run received the Agni award in 2005 from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for self-reliance in technology.
The DIPR has a number of publications to its credit. Its psychologists and scientists have brought out manuals such as “Stress and its Management”, “Deceit Detection and Interrogation”, “Suicide and Fratricide: Dynamics and Management: A Field Manual for Officers”, “Managing Emotions in Daily Life and at Workplace”, “Propaganda – Field Manual for Armed Forces”, and “Overcoming Obsolescence and Becoming Creative in R&D Environment”.
Said Mandal: “We began our journey with a selection system in 1943. We have now spread our wings
Of men and minds
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