Indian Agni-4 launch stirs fears of local nuclear war in S Asia amid arms race

[nik22]

@AhaseebA , Do you mind sharing your credentials? Just to understand the authority you have on subject. If there is something confidential, I understand.

Thanks!

 

[typoerror]

I have been talking about "fins and lift" for the past couple of posts.
I termed it impossible under the provided characteristics (solid-fueled quasi-ballistic missile of 5000km range/40km altitude).
But if you talk about a liquid fueled scramjet, something like a giant X-51 Waverider, then yes it can be done in future.

er.. yea, we all know about the waverider. scramjet propulsion is from Mach 6 upto mach 20+ Thats why there is money being put in there. There is no law of physics that says a rocket carrying its own oxidizer cannot reach Mach 6. Its possible, done by the DRDO with the Shaurya and its a matter of scaling it. I am not arguing that it is optimum. Scramjets are the way to go for hypersonic flight. But scramjet weapons are still at least a decade away. In the meantime, hypersonic glide is here. India tested it 5 years ago first. No one noticed. Now china tests the same and pentagon seizes the chance to create some panic among americans to stop obamas funding cuts. and suddenly china is the shit in hypersonic weapons.

 

[Omega007]

So AhaseebA sir,you do believe what we Indian members were trying very hard to convince your countrymen here on PDF........that Shaurya is not a pure ballistic missile but in fact a hypersonic post boost glide weapon like your CM 400AKG.It's quite relaxing to notice as such.
By the way,I have learnt many things from you especially on missile related matters.So thanks to you.

 

[The Deterrent]

@AhaseebA , Do you mind sharing your credentials? Just to understand the authority you have on subject. If there is something confidential, I understand.

Thanks!

I do not have any authority in official capacity on this subject, I'm just a defence enthusiast. I read a lot about it and try to learn as much as I can.

er.. yea, we all know about the waverider. scramjet propulsion is from Mach 6 upto mach 20+ Thats why there is money being put in there. There is no law of physics that says a rocket carrying its own oxidizer cannot reach Mach 6. Its possible, done by the DRDO with the Shaurya and its a matter of scaling it. I am not arguing that it is optimum. Scramjets are the way to go for hypersonic flight. But scramjet weapons are still at least a decade away. In the meantime, hypersonic glide is here. India tested it 5 years ago first. No one noticed. Now china tests the same and pentagon seizes the chance to create some panic among americans to stop obamas funding cuts. and suddenly china is the shit in hypersonic weapons.

I never said that a rocket cannotreach Mach 6! You do realize the size and weight of a solid-fueled rocket which is supposed to "cruise" at 40km altitude for 5000km? Keep that assumption in mind and then reconsider that possibility.
There is a reason why Iskander and Shaurya have lesser range. To increase range AND have terminal manoeuvring, a ballistic missile is necessary to propel the payload to the required distance before it begins the hypersonic manoeuvring (kind of what the Russians are doing with the Topol-M).

India didn't do anything new by introducing Shaurya, which gives only the hypersonic cruising capability. What the Chinese have done is that they have introduced a vehicle which manoeuvres at Mach 10 within the atmosphere.

So AhaseebA sir,you do believe what we Indian members were trying very hard to convince your countrymen here on PDF........that Shaurya is not a pure ballistic missile but in fact a hypersonic post boost glide weapon like your CM 400AKG.It's quite relaxing to notice as such.
By the way,I have learnt many things from you especially on missile related matters.So thanks to you.

Of course it is, given the flight characteristics of the system.
You're welcome.

 

[Omega007]

Well Ahaseeb bhai,ISRO did test a scram jet technology demonstrator onboard one of its sounding rocket which had achieved velocity in the range of mach6-7.I shall try to find the article.
And according to the scribed article,the BGRV does indeed perform horizontal 'S' maneuvers,so it's not quite right to say that Shaurya doesn't bring anything new other than hypersonic speed.

 

[typoerror]

I do not have any authority in official capacity on this subject, I'm just a defence enthusiast. I read a lot about it and try to learn as much as I can.



I never said that a rocket cannotreach Mach 6! You do realize the size and weight of a solid-fueled rocket which is supposed to "cruise" at 40km altitude for 5000km? Keep that assumption in mind and then reconsider that possibility.
There is a reason why Iskander and Shaurya have lesser range. To increase range AND have terminal manoeuvring, a ballistic missile is necessary to propel the payload to the required distance before it begins the hypersonic manoeuvring (kind of what the Russians are doing with the Topol-M).

India didn't do anything new by introducing Shaurya, which gives only the hypersonic cruising capability. What the Chinese have done is that they have introduced a vehicle which manoeuvres at Mach 10 within the atmosphere.



Of course it is, given the flight characteristics of the system.
You're welcome.

lol ... thats very funny. allow me to dismantle your argument.

China tested their hypersonic glide vehicle. I did not see any credible source that quoted range. But somewhere it said threat to Guam - now, how far was that., way more than 5K KM. Now if you believe the chinese troll mob, they will say the range was 12K KM.

Now to bust your BS. Do you think the chinese tested a scramjet? No. did they drop it from a plane?. No. They tested a hypersonic glide vehicle that got it to its hypersonic speed by a rocket motor carrying its own oxidizer. Only the range is in doubt, but hey if you say the choinese tested something with piddly range, then it must be true.

 

[Indo-guy]

Well Ahaseeb bhai,ISRO did test a scram jet technology demonstrator onboard one of its sounding rocket which had achieved velocity in the range of mach6-7.I shall try to find the article.
And according to the scribed article,the BGRV does indeed perform horizontal 'S' maneuvers,so it's not quite right to say that Shaurya doesn't bring anything new other than hypersonic speed.

It was passive scramjet engine test ...the rocket which carried scramjet attained mach 6 velocity ...

scramjet was not ignited ...and it did not attain hypersonic velocity on its own.

However both ISRO and DRDO have ground tested scramjet and sustained hypersonic speed for some 6 seconds long time back .

lol ... thats very funny. allow me to dismantle your argument.

China tested their hypersonic glide vehicle. I did not see any credible source that quoted range. But somewhere it said threat to Guam - now, how far was that., way more than 5K KM. Now if you believe the chinese troll mob, they will say the range was 12K KM.

Now to bust your BS. Do you think the chinese tested a scramjet? No. did they drop it from a plane?. No. They tested a hypersonic glide vehicle that got it to its hypersonic speed by a rocket motor carrying its own oxidizer. Only the range is in doubt, but hey if you say the choinese tested something with piddly range, then it must be true.

We do not have any numbers , stats ,specifications about China's hypersonic glide vehicle . We do not know how long the flight aws sustained ...
I am not doubting the test ...but only that we do not have much information .

 

[typoerror]

It was passive scarmjet engine test ...the rocket which carried scramjet attianed mach 6 velocity ...

scramjet was not ignited ...and it did not attain hypersonic velocity on its own.

However bothy ISRO and DRDO have ground tested scramjet and sustained hypersonic speed for some 6 seconds long time back .



We do not have any numbers , stats ,specifications about China's hypersonic glide vehicle . We do not know how long the flight aws sustained ...
I am not doubting the test ...but only that we do not have much information .

We dont need any numbers, a glide vehicle means its propulsion was external. To propel an object to sustained hypersonic speeds within atmosphere you need a rocket. Thats what the Chinese did. The only question is how big the rocket was. And stop talking about scramjet. there is no chinese scramjet or indian scramjet yet. there wont be a weaponized scramjet for more than a decade. they are trying to sustain 5 minute experimental flights still and just about achieing partial success.

 

[SrNair]

I see no need to increase the range

India will increase it range no doubt in that.But it may doubt whether they acknowledge actual range.If it goes like this Indian government may ordered Nukes that can strike US if needed.It all about geopolitics.Friends and foes will constantly rotate in international arena.

 

[nik22]

lol ... thats very funny. allow me to dismantle your argument.

China tested their hypersonic glide vehicle. I did not see any credible source that quoted range. But somewhere it said threat to Guam - now, how far was that., way more than 5K KM. Now if you believe the chinese troll mob, they will say the range was 12K KM.

Now to bust your BS. Do you think the chinese tested a scramjet? No. did they drop it from a plane?. No. They tested a hypersonic glide vehicle that got it to its hypersonic speed by a rocket motor carrying its own oxidizer. Only the range is in doubt, but hey if you say the choinese tested something with piddly range, then it must be true.

Mate, don't mind please. You need to be polite.

 

[Omega007]

It was passive scarmjet engine test ...the rocket which carried scramjet attianed mach 6 velocity ...

scramjet was not ignited ...and it did not attain hypersonic velocity on its own.

However bothy ISRO and DRDO have ground tested scramjet and sustained hypersonic speed for some 6 seconds long time back .



We do not have any numbers , stats ,specifications about China's hypersonic glide vehicle . We do not know how long the flight aws sustained ...
I am not doubting the test ...but only that we do not have much information .

Same was the case with the Chinese hypersonic test vehicle- they used a ballistic missile as a booster and ISRO used a sounding rocket in that place.

 

[Indo-guy]

We dont need any numbers, a glide vehicle means its propulsion was external. To propel an object to sustained hypersonic speeds within atmosphere you need a rocket. Thats what the Chinese did. The only question is how big the rocket was. And stop talking about scramjet. there is no chinese scramjet or indian scramjet yet. there wont be a weaponized scramjet for more than a decade. they are trying to sustain 5 minute experimental flights still and just about achieing partial success.

as usual China's programme is clouded in secrecy . as far as india is concerned there is lot of information avilable in public domain .

India's RLTV Demonstrator with scarmjet is about 3 tonnes heavy , 1 metre long and is expected to be tested to sustain scramjet ingnition for 6 seconds at 36 km atmospheric height for 6 seconds . Flight is expected within 1year .

US had ecently tested scramjet which sustained ignition for 200 seconds ...

Same was the case with the Chinese hypersonic test vehicle- they used a ballistic missile as a booster and ISRO used a sounding rocket in that place.

It's not possible to compare the ISRO test vs China's test ...as we virtually know nothing about what exactly china tested !

India has some experience in Ramjet , scramjet technology thanks to Brahmos JV ...which has given immense insight into these complex technologies to India scientists ...

We should be having functional Hypersonic Brahmos II variant powered by Scramjet engine by end of this decade ...i.e 2020

We dont need any numbers, a glide vehicle means its propulsion was external. To propel an object to sustained hypersonic speeds within atmosphere you need a rocket. Thats what the Chinese did. The only question is how big the rocket was. And stop talking about scramjet. there is no chinese scramjet or indian scramjet yet. there wont be a weaponized scramjet for more than a decade. they are trying to sustain 5 minute experimental flights still and just about achieing partial success.

India will have Brahmos II which is nothing but weaponised scramjet within this very decade ....
the first Brahmos II is expected to be flight tested by 2017 ....

and it's not fiction ...India has mastered ramjet technology and is on the way to master scramjet technology soon . It is only matter of time !

 

[The Deterrent]

lol ... thats very funny. allow me to dismantle your argument.

China tested their hypersonic glide vehicle. I did not see any credible source that quoted range. But somewhere it said threat to Guam - now, how far was that., way more than 5K KM. Now if you believe the chinese troll mob, they will say the range was 12K KM.

Now to bust your BS. Do you think the chinese tested a scramjet? No. did they drop it from a plane?. No. They tested a hypersonic glide vehicle that got it to its hypersonic speed by a rocket motor carrying its own oxidizer. Only the range is in doubt, but hey if you say the choinese tested something with piddly range, then it must be true.

And where did I say that the Chinese tested a scramjet? I just compared the Chinese vehicle to the Shaurya.
Your claim was that the missile would have a 40km cruising altitude (throughout the flight). Whereas in the chinese case it may well be that the rocket propelled the vehicle outside the atmosphere, it was deployed, re-entered, performed manoeuvres and hit its target (if there was one).

Any more BS you want to bust?

 

[Indo-guy]

And where did I say that the Chinese tested a scramjet? I just compared the Chinese vehicle to the Shaurya.
Your claim was that the missile would have a 40km cruising altitude (throughout the flight). Whereas in the chinese case it may well be that the rocket propelled the vehicle outside the atmosphere, it was deployed, re-entered, performed manoeuvres and hit its target (if there was one).

Any more BS you want to bust?

@typoerror needs to be polite .

thanks for your meaningful , logical and sensible posts . It's nice to read how neatly you explain things ...

Don't mind this guy's outburst !

 

[The Deterrent]

And according to the scribed article,the BGRV does indeed perform horizontal 'S' maneuvers,so it's not quite right to say that Shaurya doesn't bring anything new other than hypersonic speed.

Those horizontal S-manoeuvres were performed by the American BGRV, which was a test platform. It would be difficult to speculate if Shaurya possesses this capability as well, but if it does, it will further decrease its range.