India warns Israel, Russia to meet deadlines or lose defence orders

[jeypore]

Yes but when Russia was economically weak you guys tried to get bargains and frankly get away with murder because you were in a stronger position (The carrier deal is a example of this). Now with Russia in a better place you are getting the other end of the stick so to speak.

I think you have this wrong, we are not getting other end of the stick, it is more door are being openning up for India, that India is demanding more from Russia. Keep in mind, in past when India openned up it's tender, it was predominantly Russia. Today clearly that has changed, and India is doing it's part right by demanding more.

No offence but thats a utter crock. the U.S. sometimes can't even keep up demand from aliies s well as its own forces. And the U.S. always has its own little caveats to such purchases.

And this is also false. If Lockhead martin would have lost with Boeing in the new multi role fifth generation plane, they would have been closing there doors. It is not that American defense industry cannot produce more, infact it is lack of innovative ideas that are closing the doors.

 

[Keysersoze]

I think you have this wrong, we are not getting other end of the stick, it is more door are being openning up for India, that India is demanding more from Russia. Keep in mind, in past when India openned up it's tender, it was predominantly Russia. Today clearly that has changed, and India is doing it's part right by demanding more.



And this is also false. If Lockhead martin would have lost with Boeing in the new multi role fifth generation plane, they would have been closing there doors. It is not that American defense industry cannot produce more, infact it is lack of innovative ideas that are closing the doors.

Ok right so India told the Russians to get lost with their negotiations right? After all they will have their carriers from other sources right? And they did cancel the Mig 29 deal attached. they also told the russians to get lost with all the other deals they re-negoiated right?


As to your claims that the U.S. manufacturers are totally reliable then take a look at the canceled projects that have gone waaaaaay over budget and ask any operational soldier from the U.S. or NATO that has a surfeit of equipment. Take a look at the problems with F-35 production. I know the UK govt is not overly happy with the F-35 situation and the uK is one the Us's closest allies

 

[zombie]

I dont think we should be bad mouthing or making such statements. It is we who lose face in the process. We should have built certain clauses that will cause the vendor to cough up cash for delays, poor quality etc. Every business deal has this. If we dont have such built into it, its our own fault.

Secondly indias failure to privatse properly the defense industry is biting it dearly. all vendors know we are going around and have only few choices.

finally we are not that rich to brag around as some are wont to do.

 

[jeypore]

Ok right so India told the Russians to get lost with their negotiations right? After all they will have their carriers from other sources right? And they did cancel the Mig 29 deal attached. they also told the russians to get lost with all the other deals they re-negoiated right?


As to your claims that the U.S. manufacturers are totally reliable then take a look at the canceled projects that have gone waaaaaay over budget and ask any operational soldier from the U.S. or NATO that has a surfeit of equipment. Take a look at the problems with F-35 production. I know the UK govt is not overly happy with the F-35 situation and the uK is one the Us's closest allies

The cost are going up because like any industry as you test more the more problem you find, the cost of the product also increases. A perfect case is F-35, it is only been tested 2 percent currently. Recently Obama has preassure lockhead to accelerate the production, which is going to cost the US tax payer more by the way. Lockhead is scrapping the f-22 production and going full scale with F-35. Where does lack of production, as you have indicated come into picture. It is the lack of innovation that is pushing them down (finding mistake at every test trail).

Regarding India, the person who is spending the money is always in control. I agree with zombie, that India should have privatise the defense industry and that is and will be India biggest failure in these matters. Especially, in the big tickets items.

 

[Gucci Juice]

Well time to learn some harsh lessons if you piss off Israel AND russia most of your big ticket items will go a swirling....

umm with 10 billion a year being spent...

everyone wants a slice of the pie, even if u piss them off money is money.

if they dont wanna sell

u got USA, France, England, South Africa, and other EU countries MORE than happy to take their spot.

 

[Keysersoze]

umm with 10 billion a year being spent...

everyone wants a slice of the pie, even if u piss them off money is money.

if they dont wanna sell

u got USA, France, England, South Africa, and other EU countries MORE than happy to take their spot.

Yup that must be why India is getting screwed with so many deals then huh? How is your new carrier BTW?

Bear in mind the numbers you want and the budget you have have will not be the same thing. good luck though I fear a sharp learning curve ahead!

money is money but politics is politics

 

[insas91]

Yes but when Russia was economically weak you guys tried to get bargains and frankly get away with murder because you were in a stronger position (The carrier deal is a example of this). Now with Russia in a better place you are getting the other end of the stick so to speak.

Age old allies wont be lost in a day. It was a sincere request. Russia is in a better place because of its defence exports. And India is 2nd largest defence importer after Saudi Arabia. So losing multi-billion dollar deals hirts them more. And the second thing Russia/Israel lose out on is enormous patience India has when it comes down purchasing. So much red taping in defence procourements make it a long affair, increasing the cost itself[thats something that plagues India]. Where in the world will you get such a multi-billion dollar market?

If Russians/Israeli move out, we will have several other manufactures like boeing Lockheed, that have been itching to begin in India. So its India who is on a higher pedestal out here.

 

[XYON]

Age old allies wont be lost in a day. It was a sincere request. Russia is in a better place because of its defence exports. And India is 2nd largest defence importer after Saudi Arabia. So losing multi-billion dollar deals hirts them more. And the second thing Russia/Israel lose out on is enormous patience India has when it comes down purchasing. So much red taping in defence procourements make it a long affair, increasing the cost itself[thats something that plagues India]. Where in the world will you get such a multi-billion dollar market?

If Russians/Israeli move out, we will have several other manufactures like boeing Lockheed, that have been itching to begin in India. So its India who is on a higher pedestal out here.

The Russians are already annoyed at the Indians getting too cozy with the US. The approval of Russian engines for the JF-17 by Putin was a warning shot across the bow. The moment India inducts any US hardware, rules of the game will change and the currently craved-after Russian hardware (such as the Mi-35 Hinds, Su-30 etc) will become freely available for Pakistan. Actually Indian's are going against the global tide for purchase of weapons. Rest of the world is trying to shed its dependence on US made weapons owing to the high cost of logistics and political repercussions. For Pakistan, opening up of Russian lethal hardware will be coming full circle with which they will have an alternative to the already inducted Chinese technology.

So my friend, I would say that India is on a pedestal all right but a very shaky one at that!

 

[paritosh]

we've always tried to be too clever i guess...
the soviets wanted us to counter the american influence in china and later in pakistan...India was a natural ally...but we did not formally aligned to the soviet block...to have an independent foreign policy(or to get the best of both worlds)
we did not get any closer to the US...the soviets gave us cheaper stuff with full ToT...a fruitful relationship.
now the dynamics have changed...US has a favorable relationship with india...russia is trying to reach upto the heights of the soviet era....china stands tall...india is richer and can afford the western rates...
india going away from russia would cause russia to remove the waivers...which is a natural stance.
gorshkov is a classic example of the changing relationship...it was agreed at a throw-away price...because of the traditional relationship of India and russia...over the years...as india grew distant russians realized that they should be charging us more...

 

[maverick2009]

If you all the read the thread careful its a Warning by India to Russia.

Its not Russia warning India.

India has every major defense contractor in the world on its door stop. They are offering TOTs with varying degrees and joint development.

India wants to play with big money big technology but will not put up with late deliverys or price hikes.

Russia weapons where once unreliable but cheap. Not now

Gorskhov 44k tonne carrier will cost india $2.9 billion starting price was $650m

The Russians want IAF to buy MIG 35 @ $50M each.

Why wen IAF is license building MKI @ $40m each.

We might as will go with EADS or Dassult or indeed the devil himself the yanks.

" Just look how thery ripped up the nuclear treaty" to sell india nuclear tech.

Yanks are good at business. But indians will take every bit of tech trf they can ...

 

[sancho]

Yea but if you annoy them then you can say good bye to projects that have allowed India access to certain platforms that they would not have had previously. that means no carrier no PAK-FA no Phalcon etc etc. the U.S. would not allow as much access and the Russians would find plenty of markets to sell to that otherwise would have been blocked.

I can't agree with you, at first to remind the partner to keep delivery dates which are cleared in signed contract is not annoying. Second if we didn't go for A50 as a plattform we can go for other aircrafts like boeing 737, or Airbus. The Boeing 737 is offered as an AWACS version too, if we don't want more Phalcons and would bring more commonality to the 737 we already have (airforce one, vip transport, P8I).
You are right that maybe won't get another Carrier now, cause only a few used are available, but imo the Gorshkov deal is far to delayed to be really useful for India.
Honestly can you name me one market for Russia comparable with the Indian and as reliable? Who else in the world has the money, the need for so many modernisations and is not completely under US control?
The fact is that India needs Russia like you said, to get access on high techs with less restriction is true of course. But on the other side Russia needs us because we have the biggest market for their weapons and enough money to fund co-developments.
Without the Mki deal and the good results in several exercises, I don't think Russia would have sold so many more Su 30 later. Without India to fund Brahmos, or Pak Fa, Russia would not be able to develop these techs. Without India buying Gorshkov and leasing Akula, Russia wouldn't be able to maintain a part of their fleet.
Both countries knows very well that this is a win win situation, but the point that have changed now is, that we have more choices. We don't have to buy everything from them, so Russia can't go on with heavy delays and new price negotiations.

 

[Keysersoze]

Jeez you guys just can't read between the lines can you? I imagine all these difficulties would be ironed out as soon as the MRCA deal goes through with a Russian aircraft. Otherwise......India had the upper hand when Russia was in a bad state with poor cash flow. However the Dynamic has changed Imagine the problems if the engines for your MKI get diverted to china who is willing to pay? I magine if Russia decides to send the Gorshkov to China? I could go on and on. If the money does not go their way I am sure the Russian would fnd nice market elsewhere for their products. (I am sure the PAF would love to look at the BARS radars for example...)

 

[maverick2009]

I think india needs that Gorskhov Carrier badley the Russians have us by the balls.

But i can Guarantee the Russians will lose billions $$$ in future contracts.

I just hope the Akulla 2 nuke subs are delivered on time In Dec 2009.

 

[maverick2009]

Why would Pakistan want to look at Bars Radar,, Russian engines or Russian anything.

If India who has spent billions $$$ with Russia can,t keep them happy wat chance will Pakistan have spending fraction of this.

More importantly which Pakistani defense minster will risk doing business with Russians after Gorskhov fiasco.

The Russians are losing huge credibility.

I can see why some Pakistanis are so anxiious to have RD93 engine replaced on JF17 ASAP. AFTER THE FIRST 50 examples.

Pakistanis have enuf of sanctions surely with USA the last thing you need is Mother Russia holding you to Ransom.

One other thing they don,t offer Soft loans thery want cash up front..

 

[Keysersoze]

Why would Pakistan want to look at Bars Radar,, Russian engines or Russian anything.

If India who has spent billions $$$ with Russia can,t keep them happy wat chance will Pakistan have spending fraction of this.

More importantly which Pakistani defense minster will risk doing business with Russians after Gorskhov fiasco.

The Russians are losing huge credibility.

I can see why some Pakistanis are so anxiious to have RD93 engine replaced on JF17 ASAP. AFTER THE FIRST 50 examples.

Pakistanis have enuf of sanctions surely with USA the last thing you need is Mother Russia holding you to Ransom.

One other thing they don,t offer Soft loans thery want cash up front..

LOL who said anything about buying it large scale? a squadrons worth should be enough DACT training. And those radar freqs will be pretty cool to have