India, US set to ink $1.4bn deal for 22 Apache helicopters

[sancho]

i don't think so @sancho. Both are of different classes.no one defines wight classes its just commen sense.
empty weight:
Apache :5,165 kg Mi-28 :8,600 kg
LCH:2,250 kg T-129 :2,530 kg

Wrong, because that's a paper spec only, in operational service the difference is just minimal!
The Apache for example can carry 4 x unguided rocket pods, just like LCH or the T129 as well, the only difference here is the number of rockets, since they use different manufacturers. When the Apache carries up to 16 ATGMs, LCH can carry 2 x 4 and possibly even 2 x 2 ATGMs, which depends only on the pylons developed for HELINA, so just 2 missiles less than the Apache that is twice as heavy, which again shows that the weight has no meaning for combat helicopters. That's also why there was never ever any light combat helicopter competition, or a heavy combat helicopter competition. The Apache is always fielded against AW 129s, EC Tigers and in future possibly even against Chinese combat helicopters, although these are lighter too.

or what is the diff between MRCA and heavy fighters? both are meant for the same roles and mainly offer the same weapon capabilities.?don't they?

No they don't fighter performances are way different, according to what purpose they were designed. The F18SH for example was mainly designed for strikes, while the EF or Mig 35 were designed for air combats, that's why their performances were very different and it will be even more different, when you compare light and heavy class fighters as I said, because there you can see the performance difference the most, be it range, payload, numbers of hardpoints...,
but all this is not the case for combat helicopters. They all are designed similiar, because they are meant for the same roles, with the same number of hardpoints, similar gun and FLIR capabilities. The differences here are very small, be it that they can carry some more weapons, that they have better avionics, or possibly a better engine. That's why the LCH would do the same things in IA, that the Apache would do, while the Apache has some advantages with it's mast mounted radar, more fire power with the bigger gun if you want, but that's it. The Apache is obviously the better helicopter, but not twice as capable only because it's twice as heavy and with Rudra/LCH coming in in the short term, there is no need to waste too much money on expensive Apaches.

 

[Agent_47]

^^Aap explain bahut acha kartahe

 

[surya kiran]

Wrong, because that's a paper spec only, in operational service the difference is just minimal!
The Apache for example can carry 4 x unguided rocket pods, just like LCH or the T129 as well, the only difference here is the number of rockets, since they use different manufacturers. When the Apache carries up to 16 ATGMs, LCH can carry 2 x 4 and possibly even 2 x 2 ATGMs, which depends only on the pylons developed for HELINA, so just 2 missiles less than the Apache that is twice as heavy, which again shows that the weight has no meaning for combat helicopters. That's also why there was never ever any light combat helicopter competition, or a heavy combat helicopter competition. The Apache is always fielded against AW 129s, EC Tigers and in future possibly even against Chinese combat helicopters, although these are lighter too.




No they don't fighter performances are way different, according to what purpose they were designed. The F18SH for example was mainly designed for strikes, while the EF or Mig 35 were designed for air combats, that's why their performances were very different and it will be even more different, when you compare light and heavy class fighters as I said, because there you can see the performance difference the most, be it range, payload, numbers of hardpoints...,
but all this is not the case for combat helicopters. They all are designed similiar, because they are meant for the same roles, with the same number of hardpoints, similar gun and FLIR capabilities. The differences here are very small, be it that they can carry some more weapons, that they have better avionics, or possibly a better engine. That's why the LCH would do the same things in IA, that the Apache would do, while the Apache has some advantages with it's mast mounted radar, more fire power with the bigger gun if you want, but that's it. The Apache is obviously the better helicopter, but not twice as capable only because it's twice as heavy and with Rudra/LCH coming in in the short term, there is no need to waste too much money on expensive Apaches.

Any idea on the armour protection of the LCH. Am not able to find any info except that it weighs 100kgs. Conventional logic states that the Apaches and Havocs have much better armour protection. This would mean the ability to take 12.7mm rounds to any part of the chopper, plus kevlar protection to specific zones. This itself is a massive advantage at low levels when you will have anti armour rounds being fired at you by ground troops. Also, the Longbow, if I am not mistaken flies faster and further than the LCH even with his heavy weight. Which also means more loitering and ground support for troops. So while the LCH may have an advantage at higher altitudes where the Apache may not fly, on the plains of Rajasthan and Punjab, the Apache is the beast. Also, what people tend to forget is that besides the weapons systems, there are various other avionics which do take up weight.

I think the comparison is not right. Its like comparing a Maruti 800 to a Mercedez Benz and saying both transport 4 people.

 

[sancho]

Any idea on the armour protection of the LCH. Am not able to find any info except that it weighs 100kgs.

And still you got into conclusions? Weight doesn't tell you about the capability of the armor and I would wait until the final production version comes out, because it still needs to be seen how they will counter the weight issues.

Also, the Longbow, if I am not mistaken flies faster and further than the LCH even with his heavy weight.

Most specs shows a maximum cruise speed of 284 Km/h for the Apache and 275Km/h for LCH, possibly more in the final versions, since they are changing not only things in regard to weight, but als to drag. While the range is more beneficiary for LCH.

So while the LCH may have an advantage at higher altitudes where the Apache may not fly, on the plains of Rajasthan and Punjab, the Apache is the beast.

Not necessarily, as said, similar speed, more range, only slightly less weapons and not to forget an high power engine, customized according to our requirements in hot areas as well as high altitudes. No reason to believe the performance of LCH would be low there, except for the less capable avionics of the Apache.

 

[surya kiran]

And still you got into conclusions? Weight doesn't tell you about the capability of the armor and I would wait until the final production version comes out, because it still needs to be seen how they will counter the weight issues.

The production version going from the current weight to the weights of the Apache without undergoing structural problems is wishful thinking. Lets be practical here.


Most specs shows a maximum cruise speed of 284 Km/h for the Apache and 275Km/h for LCH, possibly more in the final versions, since they are changing not only things in regard to weight, but als to drag. While the range is more beneficiary for LCH.

Adding weight and expecting the LCH to go faster is wishful thinking again. The range of the LCH as of now is stated to be 700 kms. Is this ferry range? Combat radius? What I do not know. The ferry range of the Apache is 1900 kms. Can the LCH beat that. Seems difficult.

Not necessarily, as said, similar speed, more range, only slightly less weapons and not to forget an high power engine, customized according to our requirements in hot areas as well as high altitudes. No reason to believe the performance of LCH would be low there, except for the less capable avionics of the Apache.

Again. The Apache is faster. Its more heavily armoured. Can fly longer. Which part of this is difficult to understand? its got better radar. It carries better avionics. Its got better protection suite. When you are flying 25 ft above the ground, you need something which will take the damage and still fly. Thats where the Havocs, Hinds and Longbows excel. In the anti armour role its as much about taking punishment as it is about giving punishment. The latest versions carry the ability to control UAVs. Can the LCH do this?

Your complete argument that the LCH can carry as many weapons as the Apache and hence not big difference is absurd. Like I said, I can sit ina nano and say it carried 4 people, Does it make it the same as a Merc? If a bike bangs a Nano I am in trouble. Will it be the same with a Merc? Better protection, better control systems, better road handling, better safety, better engine, better range????? And its combat proven. Unless you can come back with facts stating the LCH beats the Apache its absurd to say that there is not much difference. As of now, its all 'I wish'. It is not 'It is'.

The LCH is just what its name says. A light combat helicopter. Its the Lo of the HiLo mix in the chopper brigade. Cheap to operate and lower in the capabilities.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Indian Army Wants Apache Helicopters From Air Force

Our BureauViewed: 321 times

Mon, Dec 3, 2012 13:11 CET


The Indian Army will request for the transfer of the recently sanctioned Apache attack helicopters from the Air Force’s command.

"We are sending a proposal to the Defence Ministry for capability enhancement in our aviation wing for absorbing the attack helicopters in our fleet," Army Chief Gen Bikram Singh was quoted as saying.

General Singh refused to divulge more information but said that the attack choppers in different roles in the different parts of the country.

According to reports, the proposal would include transfer of attack helicopters from the Air Force as also the soon-to-be-procured US-made Apache choppers.

The Army is seeking to deploy the helicopters at the earliest along the China and Pakistan border.

Recently, Defence Minister AK Antony approved the procurement of attack helicopters for the army despite Air Force opposition with Chief ACM NAK Browne saying the country cannot afford to have "small air forces".

The case for 22 Apaches is being processed by the IAF which held field evaluation trials for them and now the Defence Ministry is in the final stages of procurement of these combat assets, according to the Press Trust of India.



Indian Army Wants Apache Helicopters From Air Force : Defense news

Man I'd be pee'd off if I was an IAF attack helo pilot- they're effectively out of a job now, no? And after the opportunity to fly the beasts that are at the pinnacle of attack helos (the Apache AH-64E) had been dangled in front of them.

 

[DacterSaab]

i dont understand 2 things

1) why'r we buying only 22 and not more?

2) why not upgrade our Hinds to Super Hinds

 

[IndoUS]

i dont understand 2 things

1) why'r we buying only 22 and not more?

2) why not upgrade our Hinds to Super Hinds

1. It's the initial order so if the army is happy the numbers would increase.

2. I am thinking the army or AF doesn't feel the necessity to upgrade them when we planning on buying LCH and the Apaches

 

[Shatterpoint]

I think India will buy another 80 and divided them equally between the army and air force, I think that's logical and would give India considerable firepower.

 

[帅的一匹]

LCH will be buried. Apache has stronger armor protection and combat radius than LCH. You can't expect a LCH up to a level with HCH like Apache.

 

[帅的一匹]

As long as IA goes for more Apache in the future, LCH project will become a tragedy.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Man I'd be pee'd off if I was an IAF attack helo pilot- they're effectively out of a job now, no? And after the opportunity to fly the beasts that are at the pinnacle of attack helos (the Apache AH-64E) had been dangled in front of them.

They'll still have enough helos to fly-- the Mi-17s etc.
In any case Abingdonboy, in the Northern Theater (Siachen) the AAC does the more difficult helo-flying. The regular 'last-mile' sorties are flown by AAC not IAF.

 

[帅的一匹]

The whole world artillery vendor take India as ATM machine, this will finally sabotage Indians indigenous manufacturing ability. Let us wait and see. If I was an Indian, I will support sancho's view.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

As long as IA goes for more Apache in the future, LCH project will become a tragedy.

TOO MANY posts (and too many words) to say the same old line (i.e. S.O.S).
Funny guy.

The whole world artillery vendor take India as ATM machine, this will finally sabotage Indians indigenous manufacturing ability. Let us wait and see. If I was an Indian, I will support sancho's view.

Thank goD you're not. You're better afflicting your neigborhood.

 

[Yogi]

As long as IA goes for more Apache in the future, LCH project will become a tragedy.

only 22 Apache have been ordered till date whereas 190+ LCH have already been ordered, both belong to different class Apache is a heavy heli n will be replacing Mi35 whereas LCH is a new light attack heli specially designed keeping in mind Indian terrain...

if post after doing some basic research rather than ur personal imagination it won't do any harm believe me...