India To Purchase Two More Israeli Surveillance Aircraft

[DavidSling]

My friend,

I fully endorse and agree with Gessler's view.. In fact i will add a little bit more to it..

Back few months, i did post here an analysis based on speed and time of reaction. I had considered only the lower threshold of Mach 2 for easier understanding of time and efficacy of MFSTAR 2248 radar for Barak8 and 8 ER.

Here the first case
LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 4

Here is the second case where based on @ni8mare feedback,
LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 6


Before the publicly announced second stage speed of mach 5-7, i had written this back then

View attachment 296600 LR-SAM Successfully Tested From INS Kolkata | Page 6

This system Barak 8 and 8 ER possibly gives us a humongous advantage.. What will be interesting will be the FCR used in Land version. I believe if we can feed in from powerful radars in the network to auto detect and authorize Barak 8/8ER land version to engage specifically LO/VLO targets and low altitude terrain hugging profiles (an equivalent of sea skimming variant in land form), we have then possibly increased our interception capabilities for CMs and ARMs in a big way.

Now imagine a situation where barak 8/8ER land version coupled with S400/pantysir system. We know the ARM and CM may provide some threat to S400 Long ranged SAM specially the radars site.. So if Barak8/8ER land version in its area of coverage has those radar sites, it can very well give a medium to long range protection shield. On top for closed range protection you have Pantysir units anyways.

Thus a network case of web of missile shield can be worked out at multiple tier level.

I am betting that soon Barak 8 ER also will be further developed into a 4 canister form or a 2 canister form to add another stage and increase the length (if possible) or use a newer variant of fuel or possibly tweak its burnout to enhance range to further upwards of 200-250 km.. I see a potential of Barak 8 Extended Long Range Variant or ELR to come into existence with this 200-250 km range for both naval and land versions.

Barak 8 is a beast, another example of the innovation of Israel and India scientists.
Just look at Israel's frigates, small, but with wide variety of abilities that can be compared to any sophisticated navy ship on the planet.
Something that many here forget to mention regarding to Barak 8.
Barak 8 isn't just defending 1 ship, it's defending defined targets.
If I want one barak 8 ship to defend 10 other ships, it can be configured to defend them all.
if I want barak 8 to defend a gas station, it can be done.

That's what I would call the Israeli S-300...........

Israel doesn't need S300 neither S400 or S500, it has one of the most comprehensive multilayer missile defend systems, which can defend anything from a small rocket to an ICBM

 

[Carlosa]

Israel doesn't need S300 neither S400 or S500, it has one of the most comprehensive multilayer missile defend systems, which can defend anything from a small rocket to an ICBM

No, you didn't understand my meaning.

Barak-8 + Barak-8 ER + Barak-8 ELR 200-250 KM range would be the Israeli equivalent of the S-300 (3 missiles and about the same range), that's why I call it the Israeli S-300. Actually, the Israeli combination is even better in my opinion.

Add David's Sling to that combo and I would call it the Israeli S-400.

I've been a big fan of the Barak-8 for a few years now.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Barak 8 is a beast, another example of the innovation of Israel and India scientists.
Just look at Israel's frigates, small, but with wide variety of abilities that can be compared to any sophisticated navy ship on the planet.
Something that many here forget to mention regarding to Barak 8.
Barak 8 isn't just defending 1 ship, it's defending defined targets.
If I want one barak 8 ship to defend 10 other ships, it can be configured to defend them all.
if I want barak 8 to defend a gas station, it can be done.


Israel doesn't need S300 neither S400 or S500, it has one of the most comprehensive multilayer missile defend systems, which can defend anything from a small rocket to an ICBM

Exactly
Arrow 2, Arrow 3, David's Sling, Barak 8, Spyder , Iron Dome, iron beam.... that's called true air defence.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Don't you think for Indian service and the customised package India will be getting it would make more sense to go for the SPYDER instead of the Pantsir in this role bro?

For that we have to compare two things of both systems.. Its going to be a long post... wave

Spyder System - Ours is a MR system as we are using EL/M 2084 Air Search radar, The SR version uses EL/M 2106.
We already have EL/M 2084 as Arundhra

The country’s leading radar house is Israel Aerospace Industries Elta Systems division, known as IAI Elta. The firm provides the EL/M-2084 multi-mission radar for the Iron Dome and David’s Sling air defence systems. This three-dimensional radar uses an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) antenna and performs either sector scanning
across a 120° area, or full 360° scanning at 30 revolutions-per-minute. When operating in the air surveillance role, the radar can detect targets at a range of 256nm (474km) and at altitudes of up to 100,000 feet. When operating in a weapons-location mode, it detects targets at a range of 54nm (100km). The radar can detect and track up to 1,200
targets in its air defence mode, and 200 targets-per-minute when performing weapons location.

Source: Armada Defense Industry Profile, Israel
Link: http://armadainternational.com/assets/images/pdf/Israel_defence_industry_profile.pdf

Source : IAI Website based PDF for 2084
Link: http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/0/41420.pdf

Here is what 2084 being a single low cost radar solution helps israel with multi tier defense

Now Consider Pantsir System

The Pantsir-S1 fire control system includes a target acquisition radar and dual waveband tracking radar

The most recent Pantsir S1 variant has two passive phased array radars to provide a robust capability to acquire, track and concurrently engage up to four targets, such as AGM-88 HARM/AARGM missiles, cruise missiles, JDAMs, SDBs or other PGMs. This image shows the S-band VNIIRT 2RL80 acquisition radar deployed, and the 1RS2-1 Ku-band engagement radar elevated (KBP).

Early variants of the SA-19 Grison were developed to defend land manoevre forces against missile firing attack helicopters and low flying close air support fighters. More recently, the re-engineered and modernised Pantsir S1 has seen the role of the system redefined to protection of high value targets against precision guided munitions and cruise missiles.

The development of the Pantsir S/S1 saw the introduction, initially, of a search radar with a doubly curved parabolic surface and eliptical shape. This was supplanted in production variants with a VNIIRT developed phased array. The latter design has since appeared on 2K22M1 Tunguska M1 demonstrators, as well as tracked and wheeled 96K6 Pantsir S1 demonstrators and production systems.

The VNIIRT developed PESA technology acquisition radar on the Pantsir S1, the 2RL80/2RL80E, uses a mechanically rotated 1776 x 940 mm sized 760 kg passive S-band phased array. The design provides elevation coverage between 0° and 60°, range coverage between 1 and 50 km, and performs a circular scan in 2 or 4 seconds. The radar can initiate tracking in 2 seconds. Cited detection range performance for a 1 m2 target is 47 km, for a 0.1 m2 target is 26 km. Cited clutter rejection is 55 dB. Accuracy figures cited are 50 metres in range, 15 - 18 min of arc in azimuth, and 25 - 30 min of arc in elevation.

Elevation coverage is selectable in increments of 0° - 60°, 0° - 30°, 40° - 80° and 0 - 25°, and the radar can search a 360° circle at 15 or 30 RPM. Range coverage can be selected in several modes, at 1-30 km, 1-50 km, 1-25 km and 3-80 km.

Acquisition performance for various target types has also been cited, with notable inconsistencies:

• 36 km for a small fighter with a 2 m2 RCS;
• 20 km for a manoeuvring cruise missile with a 0.1 m2 RCS;
• 16 km for a glidebomb with a 0.2 m2 RCS;
• 12 km for an AGM-88 HARM anti-radiation missile with a 0.1 m2 RCS;
• 32 km for an AH-64 Apache attack helicopter.

The evolution of engagement radars in the Pantsir series has seen three distinct designs.

Early Pantsir S1 demonstrators initially used an MMW band monopulse tracking antenna, with a characteristic conical radome, with the Russians claiming two discrete Phazotron designs in this configuration, the 1L36-01 Roman and later 1RS2-E Shlem.

This pulse Doppler radar is designated the 1RS2/1RS2-E Shlem or SSTsR (Stantsiya Slezheniya Tsel'a i Rakety - Target and Missile Tracking Station), initially designated the 1RS1 and 1RS1-E for export. Cited tracking range performance for a 2 m2 target is 30 km. Cited RMS angular errors for X-band operation are 0.3-0.8 milliradians, for Ku-band operation 0.2-0.4 milliradians, with a 5 metre range error.

The X-band component of the SSTsR is used for target tracking, and uplink of missile steering commands., the Ku-band component for target and missile beacon tracking. The system typically guides one or two missile rounds against a single target.

This design has since appeared on the 2K22M1 Tunguska M1 demonstrators, various repackaged Pantsir variants on smaller chassis, usually with the 2RL80E acquisition radar.

In 2004 the requirement for the PVO engagement radar changed, when it was expected that the program would be cancelled. A new requirement was issued to increase the number of concurrent targets to be tracked and engaged, and engagement range was increased. This likely reflects the success of the US GBU-31/32/35/38 JDAM and emergence of analogues globally, where more than two weapons would be released from an aircraft concurrently. With the GBU-39/B Small Diameter Bomb intended to be released eight at a time, the Roman and Shlem would be saturated in a single aircraft attack.

This resulted in the development of an entirely new PESA based radar, curiously designated the
1RS2-1 / 1RS2-1E, but also labelled by a Russian source as the 1RL123-E. VNIIRT has been credited with the development of this design. To date all imagery has excluded views of the PESA antenna without the protective radome, so the following description is based on recent public disclosures and is yet to be validated:

• Operating centre wavelength claimed by KBP to be “8 mm in the K-band” - antenna geometry suggests 15 mm (20 GHz) to 18 mm (16.7 GHz);
• Beamsteering angles of up to ±45° of arc;
• Mechanical PESA boresight steering in elevation between -5° and 82°;
• Track while scan of nine separate targets;
• 90% probability of initial target acquisition within 1 second of coordinate transfer from the 2RL80 with errors of ±2.5° in azimuth, ±2.5° in elevation, ±200 m in range and ±60 metres / sec in radial velocity;
• Tracking errors of 0.2 milliradians in azimuth, 0.3 milliradians in elevation, 5 metres in range and 2 metres / sec in velocity;
• Ability to track airborne targets at velocities between 10 to 1,100 metres / sec;
• Ability to capture 4 missiles after launch;
  
• Ability to track 3 to 4 outbound missiles at velocities between 30 to 2,100 metres / sec;
• Detection range of 24 km against a 2.0 m2 RCS airborne target; 21 km against a 1 m2RCS airborne target; 16 km against a 0.5 m2 RCS airborne target; 10 km against a 0.1 m2 RCS airborne target; 7 km against a 0.03 m2 RCS airborne target;

High countermeasures resistance is claimed for the 1RS2-1 and 2RL80, but not detailed beyond the standard descriptions found in brochures.

The primary antenna is used for target and missile tracking, it is supplemented by a command link antenna which is part of the APKNR (Apparatura Peredachi Komand i Naprovadzaniya Raket) subsystem for datalink control of the missiles.

The 1L36-01 Roman was the first engagement radar used on the Pantsir S demonstrators. The characteristic conical radome shape conceals a parabolic reflector antenna with a quad waveguide feed for dual plane monpulse angle tracking, with X-band and Ku-band channels. Note the smaller upper missile command link antenna. The radar has been labelled as a 96L6-1, but more commonly as the 1L36-01 (© 2007, Yevgeniy Yerokhin, Missiles.ru).

The 1RS2-E Shlem was the second engagement radar used on the Pantsir S demonstrators, it continues to be offered with Pantsir and Tunguska variants on tracked chassis where its compact size and single target limitation do not present operational problems. The antenna has not been displayed without the radome, but is likely to be very similar to the earlier 1L36 Roman series (© 2005, Said Aminov, Vestnik PVO).

Detail of new Pantsir S1 1RS2-1 / 1RS2-1E PESA engagement radar, which is claimed to operate in the Ku-band. The small upper antenna belongs to the APKNR (Apparatura Peredachi Komand i Naprovadzaniya Raket) subsystem for datalink control of the missiles. The design has been credited to VNIIRT (KBP).

Source: Engagement and Fire Control Radars (S-Band, X-band)



Now comes the most important part? Which one suits us better?
Lets see simply this to first understand the basis

Now simply compare few things
Spyder 2084 - S Band
Pantsir- Combination of Acquisition Radar - 2RL80/2RL80E S Band and engagement radars 1RS2-1/1E operating in X, Ku and K Band

Further

• Aerospace engineers designed stealth airplanes primarily to beat the detection equipment that poses the greatest threat—X-band radar.
• Surface-to-air batteries use this band because it operates at wavelengths that give the optimal compromise between the range and resolution needed to identify and track a target.
• But when stealth airplanes are exposed to radar waves longer than this wavelength range, they generate stronger radar returns.
• The beauty of this system which uses multiple wavelength is that jamming is much more difficult.

Thus that is why, we require a combination.

Consider the best Long range radar in S-400 - Nebo M

• The Nebo-M includes three truck-mounted radar systems, all of them -AESAs: the VHF RLM-M, the RLM-D in L-band (UHF) and the S/X-band RLM-S. (Russian documentation describes them as metric, decimetric and centimetric—that is, each differs from the next by an order of magnitude in frequency.)
• Each of the radars is equipped with the Orientir location system, comprising three Glonass satellite navigation receivers on a fixed frame, and they are connected via wireless or cable datalink to a ground control vehicle.

So you see, we need a combination for taking on ARM and CMs and such very stealthy incoming threats..


@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @WAJsal @Picdelamirand-oil

 

[#hydra#]

With IA armed with baraka?akask mk2 won't see the light i think.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

For that we have to compare two things of both systems.. Its going to be a long post... wave

Spyder System - Ours is a MR system as we are using EL/M 2084 Air Search radar, The SR version uses EL/M 2106.
We already have EL/M 2084 as Arundhra
View attachment 296622
View attachment 296626
View attachment 296623

View attachment 296624
View attachment 296625

The country’s leading radar house is Israel Aerospace Industries Elta Systems division, known as IAI Elta. The firm provides the EL/M-2084 multi-mission radar for the Iron Dome and David’s Sling air defence systems. This three-dimensional radar uses an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) antenna and performs either sector scanning
across a 120° area, or full 360° scanning at 30 revolutions-per-minute. When operating in the air surveillance role, the radar can detect targets at a range of 256nm (474km) and at altitudes of up to 100,000 feet. When operating in a weapons-location mode, it detects targets at a range of 54nm (100km). The radar can detect and track up to 1,200
targets in its air defence mode, and 200 targets-per-minute when performing weapons location.

Source: Armada Defense Industry Profile, Israel
Link: http://armadainternational.com/assets/images/pdf/Israel_defence_industry_profile.pdf

Source : IAI Website based PDF for 2084
Link: http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/0/41420.pdf

Here is what 2084 being a single low cost radar solution helps israel with multi tier defense

Now Consider Pantsir System

The Pantsir-S1 fire control system includes a target acquisition radar and dual waveband tracking radar

The most recent Pantsir S1 variant has two passive phased array radars to provide a robust capability to acquire, track and concurrently engage up to four targets, such as AGM-88 HARM/AARGM missiles, cruise missiles, JDAMs, SDBs or other PGMs. This image shows the S-band VNIIRT 2RL80 acquisition radar deployed, and the 1RS2-1 Ku-band engagement radar elevated (KBP).

Early variants of the SA-19 Grison were developed to defend land manoevre forces against missile firing attack helicopters and low flying close air support fighters. More recently, the re-engineered and modernised Pantsir S1 has seen the role of the system redefined to protection of high value targets against precision guided munitions and cruise missiles.

The development of the Pantsir S/S1 saw the introduction, initially, of a search radar with a doubly curved parabolic surface and eliptical shape. This was supplanted in production variants with a VNIIRT developed phased array. The latter design has since appeared on 2K22M1 Tunguska M1 demonstrators, as well as tracked and wheeled 96K6 Pantsir S1 demonstrators and production systems.

The VNIIRT developed PESA technology acquisition radar on the Pantsir S1, the 2RL80/2RL80E, uses a mechanically rotated 1776 x 940 mm sized 760 kg passive S-band phased array. The design provides elevation coverage between 0° and 60°, range coverage between 1 and 50 km, and performs a circular scan in 2 or 4 seconds. The radar can initiate tracking in 2 seconds. Cited detection range performance for a 1 m2 target is 47 km, for a 0.1 m2 target is 26 km. Cited clutter rejection is 55 dB. Accuracy figures cited are 50 metres in range, 15 - 18 min of arc in azimuth, and 25 - 30 min of arc in elevation.

Elevation coverage is selectable in increments of 0° - 60°, 0° - 30°, 40° - 80° and 0 - 25°, and the radar can search a 360° circle at 15 or 30 RPM. Range coverage can be selected in several modes, at 1-30 km, 1-50 km, 1-25 km and 3-80 km.

Acquisition performance for various target types has also been cited, with notable inconsistencies:

• 36 km for a small fighter with a 2 m2 RCS;
• 20 km for a manoeuvring cruise missile with a 0.1 m2 RCS;
• 16 km for a glidebomb with a 0.2 m2 RCS;
• 12 km for an AGM-88 HARM anti-radiation missile with a 0.1 m2 RCS;
• 32 km for an AH-64 Apache attack helicopter.

The evolution of engagement radars in the Pantsir series has seen three distinct designs.

Early Pantsir S1 demonstrators initially used an MMW band monopulse tracking antenna, with a characteristic conical radome, with the Russians claiming two discrete Phazotron designs in this configuration, the 1L36-01 Roman and later 1RS2-E Shlem.

This pulse Doppler radar is designated the 1RS2/1RS2-E Shlem or SSTsR (Stantsiya Slezheniya Tsel'a i Rakety - Target and Missile Tracking Station), initially designated the 1RS1 and 1RS1-E for export. Cited tracking range performance for a 2 m2 target is 30 km. Cited RMS angular errors for X-band operation are 0.3-0.8 milliradians, for Ku-band operation 0.2-0.4 milliradians, with a 5 metre range error.

The X-band component of the SSTsR is used for target tracking, and uplink of missile steering commands., the Ku-band component for target and missile beacon tracking. The system typically guides one or two missile rounds against a single target.

This design has since appeared on the 2K22M1 Tunguska M1 demonstrators, various repackaged Pantsir variants on smaller chassis, usually with the 2RL80E acquisition radar.

In 2004 the requirement for the PVO engagement radar changed, when it was expected that the program would be cancelled. A new requirement was issued to increase the number of concurrent targets to be tracked and engaged, and engagement range was increased. This likely reflects the success of the US GBU-31/32/35/38 JDAM and emergence of analogues globally, where more than two weapons would be released from an aircraft concurrently. With the GBU-39/B Small Diameter Bomb intended to be released eight at a time, the Roman and Shlem would be saturated in a single aircraft attack.

This resulted in the development of an entirely new PESA based radar, curiously designated the
1RS2-1 / 1RS2-1E, but also labelled by a Russian source as the 1RL123-E. VNIIRT has been credited with the development of this design. To date all imagery has excluded views of the PESA antenna without the protective radome, so the following description is based on recent public disclosures and is yet to be validated:

• Operating centre wavelength claimed by KBP to be “8 mm in the K-band” - antenna geometry suggests 15 mm (20 GHz) to 18 mm (16.7 GHz);
• Beamsteering angles of up to ±45° of arc;
• Mechanical PESA boresight steering in elevation between -5° and 82°;
• Track while scan of nine separate targets;
• 90% probability of initial target acquisition within 1 second of coordinate transfer from the 2RL80 with errors of ±2.5° in azimuth, ±2.5° in elevation, ±200 m in range and ±60 metres / sec in radial velocity;
• Tracking errors of 0.2 milliradians in azimuth, 0.3 milliradians in elevation, 5 metres in range and 2 metres / sec in velocity;
• Ability to track airborne targets at velocities between 10 to 1,100 metres / sec;
• Ability to capture 4 missiles after launch;
  
• Ability to track 3 to 4 outbound missiles at velocities between 30 to 2,100 metres / sec;
• Detection range of 24 km against a 2.0 m2 RCS airborne target; 21 km against a 1 m2RCS airborne target; 16 km against a 0.5 m2 RCS airborne target; 10 km against a 0.1 m2 RCS airborne target; 7 km against a 0.03 m2 RCS airborne target;

High countermeasures resistance is claimed for the 1RS2-1 and 2RL80, but not detailed beyond the standard descriptions found in brochures.

The primary antenna is used for target and missile tracking, it is supplemented by a command link antenna which is part of the APKNR (Apparatura Peredachi Komand i Naprovadzaniya Raket) subsystem for datalink control of the missiles.

The 1L36-01 Roman was the first engagement radar used on the Pantsir S demonstrators. The characteristic conical radome shape conceals a parabolic reflector antenna with a quad waveguide feed for dual plane monpulse angle tracking, with X-band and Ku-band channels. Note the smaller upper missile command link antenna. The radar has been labelled as a 96L6-1, but more commonly as the 1L36-01 (© 2007, Yevgeniy Yerokhin, Missiles.ru).

The 1RS2-E Shlem was the second engagement radar used on the Pantsir S demonstrators, it continues to be offered with Pantsir and Tunguska variants on tracked chassis where its compact size and single target limitation do not present operational problems. The antenna has not been displayed without the radome, but is likely to be very similar to the earlier 1L36 Roman series (© 2005, Said Aminov, Vestnik PVO).

Detail of new Pantsir S1 1RS2-1 / 1RS2-1E PESA engagement radar, which is claimed to operate in the Ku-band. The small upper antenna belongs to the APKNR (Apparatura Peredachi Komand i Naprovadzaniya Raket) subsystem for datalink control of the missiles. The design has been credited to VNIIRT (KBP).

Source: Engagement and Fire Control Radars (S-Band, X-band)



Now comes the most important part? Which one suits us better?
Lets see simply this to first understand the basis

View attachment 296646

Now simply compare few things
Spyder 2084 - S Band
Pantsir- Combination of Acquisition Radar - 2RL80/2RL80E S Band and engagement radars 1RS2-1/1E operating in X, Ku and K Band

Further

• Aerospace engineers designed stealth airplanes primarily to beat the detection equipment that poses the greatest threat—X-band radar.
• Surface-to-air batteries use this band because it operates at wavelengths that give the optimal compromise between the range and resolution needed to identify and track a target.
• But when stealth airplanes are exposed to radar waves longer than this wavelength range, they generate stronger radar returns.
• The beauty of this system which uses multiple wavelength is that jamming is much more difficult.

Thus that is why, we require a combination.

Consider the best Long range radar in S-400 - Nebo M

• The Nebo-M includes three truck-mounted radar systems, all of them -AESAs: the VHF RLM-M, the RLM-D in L-band (UHF) and the S/X-band RLM-S. (Russian documentation describes them as metric, decimetric and centimetric—that is, each differs from the next by an order of magnitude in frequency.)
• Each of the radars is equipped with the Orientir location system, comprising three Glonass satellite navigation receivers on a fixed frame, and they are connected via wireless or cable datalink to a ground control vehicle.

So you see, we need a combination for taking on ARM and CMs and such very stealthy incoming threats..


@Abingdonboy @Vauban @Taygibay @MilSpec @AUSTERLITZ @SpArK @WAJsal @Picdelamirand-oil

How good is Spyder against cruise missiles ?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Israel also claim to have radar able to track Stealth aircraft:
Stealth No More? Israeli Radar Tracks Stealth Aircraft from Hundreds of Kilometers Away

 

[PARIKRAMA]

How good is Spyder against cruise missiles ?

Very good question

The effectiveness of defense against cruise missiles is highly dependent on the radar cross section of the incoming hostile versus frequency. See this figure

The above figure (Figure 2) represents a case of RCS vs frequency
Important is to note that RCS of a incoming hostile (CM/BM/Jet/Drone/UAV/ARM/etc) is lower at S -band and X-band (the track/kill portion of the kill chain) than at HF, VHF, and UHF (the surveillance portion of the kill chain).

Modern methods, such as airframe shaping and the use of absorbing material, have been used to considerably reduce the cross sections of all such incoming hostiles .

RCS of a CM like Tomahawk is around 0.1m2. On top its terrain hugging profile makes it very difficult to detect. But as i said earlier when smaller RCS (less than 0.1m2) are exposed to radar waves longer than this wavelength range, they generate stronger radar returns.

Spyder system using 2084 will detect but at much closer range when they are flying such a lo-lo flight path.
Spyder MR is in general for approx 35 Km range coverage. I can surely bet Pantsir system detecting 0.1m2 CM at 20 km range would be much ahead of Spyder system.

 

[ni8mare]

VLRSAM*- BARAK-8NG (IA,IAF and IN- to be devloped hopefully)

In these area DRDO is making 200-300 km SAM ......don't now how barak 8 ELG will fit in ...amy be sub-system....because to have SAM of 250 km + will need completely new design ...adding booster will not work

QRSAM- Maitri (IAF, IA and IN)
SRSAM- SPYDER (IA and IAF) and Akash (IA and IAF)

Isn't Maitri is a SRSAM program ????

Isn't QRSAM is short range SAM aka SRSAM with high response rate like 2-4 secs? so why have two system for different categories QRSAM/SRSAM? combine them and go for one sys

SPYDER is only used by IAF and that too in very low quantity......i will suggest instead going for Maitri/Akash NG which will be more modern and produced in india in large number thereby having low cost and same system

+ I'm just wondering where the VL-Astra and Akash MK.2 can fit into this picture?

If they are actually made...... they will mostly complement the system below

QRSAM- Maitri (IAF, IA and IN)
SRSAM- SPYDER (IA and IAF) and Akash (IA and IAF)

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Question is can spyder an Pantsir be integrated into one combined defesive system control structure?
Anyways the only possibility of getting pantsir is as escorts for s-400.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Israel also claim to have radar able to track Stealth aircraft:
Stealth No More? Israeli Radar Tracks Stealth Aircraft from Hundreds of Kilometers Away

As per the article
These radars are employed primarily for long-range early warning against missile attacks, or for space debris monitoring and surveillance. Other cluster configurations are possible to meet specific customer requirements.

The ULTRA radars, already operationally proven, use a modular, common UHF-band cluster architecture capable of wide-angle electronic scanning in both elevation and azimuth. They can be used as autonomous search radars, supporting all defence layers: Air Defence Surveillance for medium ranges, Early Warning for long ranges, and strategic coverage for very long ranges.

What Israel is doing is the same Radar Surveillance Technology Experimental Radar (RSTER) which USA did in 1983 for Aegis system
The RSTER is a UHF, phased-array, moving-target indicator system capable of detecting targets in the presence of heavy clutter and jamming interference. The interference is mitigated through the use of adaptive- nulling capability in elevation angle and ultra low side lobes in azimuth.
The Israeli version is an AESA radar

As you see the Ultra LR radar uses the UHF band to detect the incoming hostiles which does not remain at lo flight path for all the flight course.. thus, it gives the pointer to the systems connected with it to search and track the hostile when range is within such other tracking radars and lets the FCR to handle the rest.

The scenario changes the moment the LR radar detects much closer owing to a possibly lo lo path all flightpath and terrain hugging features.

See this experiment done by USA. Scenario 1 was high altitude and scenario 1a, 2 and 3 were lo lo flightpath.
In such a case the detection and engagement shown by red case as shown was much much closer even though the same was detected by the UHF radar.

 

[Abingdonboy]

SPYDER is only used by IAF and that too in very low quantity......i will suggest instead going for Maitri/Akash NG which will be more modern and produced in india in large number thereby having low cost and same system

The SPYDER SAM is very advanced actually.

Isn't Maitri is a SRSAM program ????

Isn't QRSAM is short range SAM aka SRSAM with high response rate like 2-4 secs? so why have two system for different categories QRSAM/SRSAM? combine them and go for one sys

The advantadge the Maitri has over the Akash and what makes it a QRSAM is just that- it's quick reaction time (as it is based on the Mica and will have VL- allowing for rapid 360' cover) as well as being canisterised (unlike the Akash). Furthermore, the Maitri can be devloped to fit onto smaller navy ships (like the C-Dome) as it will take up much less space than the BARAK-8. The Akash has no such naval application.


@PARIKRAMA

If they are actually made...... they will mostly complement the system below

I think it is very important to keep developing these systems, and especially the Akash NG/Mk. 2 as it is going to feature VL and an onboard seeker- elements that did not feature in the Akash Mk.1 and would give the DRDO great exposure.

@PARIKRAMA could you also shed some light on the VL-ASTRA being developed that is for the IA's LLQRM that is somehow a seperate requirement to the IA's QRSAM (Maitri). From what I can understand both will have onboard seekers, both will have TVC and both will be VL. I understand the Maitri (with the Mica) will be in service (within 3-4 years) a lot earlier than the VL-ASTRA (maybe 5-6 years) but the IA has given them different designations, they are not being developed both for the QRSAM role or both for the LLQRM role but two very similar systems are being pursued for two different requirments.

+ I know the biggest driving factor behind the Maitri is not the IA or IAF at all but the IN for understandable reasons (to replace the BARAK-1 and give them something along the lines of the C-Dome to compliment the BARAK-8).

Maitri:

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Abingdonboy
Maitri TBH is actually a rehashed project.

• The ownership of the Maitri programme is envisaged as being fully Indian.
• With baseline technologies from the Trishul SAM programme, the Maitri programme basically envisages the sale of certain key technologies by MBDA to DRDO (seeker, endgame avionics, thrust vector control, propulsion modifications).
• Though production will not be under a corporate joint venture on the lines of BrahMos, but would rather be carried out entirely by Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), India's state-owned munitions production agency.
• The Maitri is being built in two basic variants -- a ship-borne point defence and tactical air defence version for the Navy and a land-based self-propelled (wheeled and tracked) launcher-based system for the Air Force and Army.

Source: LIVEFIST: Indo-French Maitri SR-SAM Awaits Workshare Clearance

The original Trishul is able to have a range of 9.5 km and altitude of 4.5 km

Thus effectively with MBDA the Maitri can be made much much quicker any given day and should see first missile test in 3 years from the date of official sanction.

For SR SAM project here are the tech specs as said by Indian Army

Source: http://indianarmy . nic. in/writereaddata/RFI/47/rfi-ii-280110.pdf
(remove the spaces)

VL Astra project is basically the spin off version based on the ground test which were done to test out various parameters like aerodynamics, seeker, propulsion etc before flight trials are held.

See here for range
The missile could be launched from different altitudes - it can cover 110 km when launched from an altitude of 15 km, 44 km when fired from an altitude of eight km and 21 km when the altitude is sea level.

Since the sea level range is 21 km, it is well above the SR SAM requirement picture you showed. What is interesting is Astra Mk1 speed is 4.5 Mach+ whereas Akash is 2.5Mach

The control and guidance and all other sub-systems were validated at very high altitude and range as the missile zoomed at a speed of 4.5 Mach in the eighth developmental trial held on Thursday.
Source: Astra missile successfully test-fired again: The Hindu - Mobile edition

The only big challenge i See is DRDO is focused on first inducting Astra Mk1 and then making Astra Mk2. So i dont think they will have enough time and resources for VL Astra.. I remember IDRW quoting VL Astra as a spin off but i doubt the VL Astra can come in next 5-6 years.. I see next 5 years in perfecting Astra Mk1 and Mk2 only in pure A2A mode.. May be beyond 5-8 years yes VL Astra with Astra Mk1 and Mk2 can come in surely giving us a very superior capability.

BTW one side but very important point

Present Astra uses R77 Seeker from Russia

and we are trying to make Ku Band seeker

Thus one of the critical component is as of now missing and thats why VL Astra is long long away.

 

[ni8mare]

The SPYDER SAM is very advanced actually.

I know that........but I am are talking about Maitri which will have more advance due to fact that it will be made now with more advance technologies with france help ...not mention it will have naval version (SPYDER does not have) which can be adopted for IA/IAF

The advantage the Maitri has over the Akash and what makes it a QRSAM is just that- it's quick reaction time (as it is based on the Mica and will have VL- allowing for rapid 360' cover) as well as being canisterised (unlike the Akash). Furthermore, the Maitri can be developed to fit onto smaller navy ships (like the C-Dome) as it will take up much less space than the BARAK-8. The Akash has no such naval application.

I am talking about AKASH NG (= ASTRA-VL actually) not AKASH mk 1.......which will have TVC, VL, dual pulse motors and onboard seekers

could you also shed some light on the VL-ASTRA being developed that is for the IA's LLQRM that is somehow a separate requirement to the IA's QRSAM (Maitri). From what I can understand both will have onboard seekers, both will have TVC and both will be VL. I understand the Maitri (with the Mica) will be in service (within 3-4 years) a lot earlier than the VL-ASTRA (maybe 5-6 years) but the IA has given them different designations, they are not being developed both for the QRSAM role or both for the LLQ RM role but two very similar systems are being pursued for two different requirements.

+ I know the biggest driving factor behind the Maitri is not the IA or IAF at all but the IN for understandable reasons (to replace the BARAK-1 and give them something along the lines of the C-Dome to compliment the BARAK-8).

see too many terminologies ....too many system ....AKASH NG, ASTRA-VL, MAITRI but all for same purpose and requirements ......which are :

1. Short range 15-25 km
2. Quick reaction
3. Low level/attitude
4. vertical launch
5. Thrust vectoring
6. Dual pulse
7. Onboard seeker (X-band for naval)

What i see is wastage of money manpower and time .............while we have similar different system for same level of threat .......


See parikrama post which he posted .......and observe the feature put up by IA

In @PARIKRAMA 's post India To Purchase Two More Israeli Surveillance Aircraft | Page 2 shows that pastir is more capable to engage CM/SOW effectively then SPYDER and post #25 rises the question of integration of both ......Then should we buy (not make ) different system for same purpose and lose valuable forex ? or make one which address all and are made in india in large quantities for all services

What we need is Common Air Defence Frame/Missile (CADF/M) ...and also can be modified it for tri-services........ even a WVR AAM for IAF

 

[Abingdonboy]

see too many terminologies ....too many system ....AKASH NG, ASTRA-VL, MAITRI but all for same purpose and requirements ......which are :

1. Short range 15-25 km
2. Quick reaction
3. Low level/attitude
4. vertical launch
5. Thrust vectoring
6. Dual pulse
7. Onboard seeker (X-band for naval)

What i see is wastage of money manpower and time .............while we have similar different system for same level of threat .......for

The Maitri is entirely seperate IMO (and deserves its commitment from the forces) but I agree with you in regards to the Akash NG and VL-ASTRA covering the same patch although are we so quick to discount that the Akash NG and VL-ASTRA are one and the same? Despite the name the Akash NG/2 is NOT going to be based on the Akash Mk.1 but an entirely new missile design and why couldn't that be based on the DRDO's exemplory work on the ASTRA? As @PARIKRAMA has pointed out, during devlopmental trails for the A2A ASTRA the DRDO had conducted a number of ground tests for the missile and have plenty of performance parameters logged away of that particualr system so they have a solid base on which to work on- just like the SPYDER system simply took A2A missiles (Derby and Python) and adopted them for a SAM role. Surely this is a logical way of approaching the Akash NG/2?


Long term the AD would look like:

AAA guns- upgraded L70 right now but a new gun is being procured (for IA)- upto 3km
VSHORAD (man-portable)- RBS-70 (for IA and IAF)-250m upto 8km
QRSAM- Maitri (for IA, IN and IAF)-1km upto 15km
SRSAM- Spyder (for IAF), Akash 1 (for IA and IAF) and Akash NG/2 (with enhanced features for the IA and IAF)- upto 30km
MRSAM- BARAK-8 (for IA,IAF and IN- designated LR-SAM by IN)- upto 90km
LRSAM- BARAK-8ER (for IA,IAF and IN)- upto 120-140km
VLRSAM- DRDO's long range/BARAK-8NG-upto 250-300km

BMD- S-400 and DRDO's BMD (AAD/PAD based) for ICBM defence


I don't think there is too much wastage here @ni8mare , I think this is very comprehensive coverage right from 250m all the way out 400+ km.