India To Buy Two More Airborne Warning Systems

[DARKY]

This is AWACS India, since the radar system is Indian, just like it's not IAF that is pushing this new development, but DRDO, just like to go for AMCA. They simply don't look at the urgent needs of the forces, or Indian security, they just want to show off and say we are a worldclass company. That's the reason why, why they want to go to the next development, although they didn't finished the current one. LCA is far away from beeing inducted, just like we still have no final specs and reports of IAF about this radar system and how capable it really is compared to the Phalcon for example. So instead of dreaming around, they should be kept on the ground and focused on what is really important for India!
I have nothing against them improving their system, for example when we go for shorebased AWACS, but for the Indo-Pak and the Indo-Chinese borders we need improvements now, not by the end of the decades, just like we need LCA now, not AMCA somewhere in the next decade.

AWACS India program could have private partnership... the main reason for delays in Radar projects are the nonavailability of proper semiconductor fabrication industry whatever we make has to be imported from outside... once of the reason why buying phalcons from Israel has been a lengthy and costly affair... the problem is not with electronics and software part.. the project is very much one year from its 1st flight If all the material required is provided to LRDE today... they can assemble the antenna and computers in 6 months.

Plus the fact that all the next radar projects are all AESA... from ground based ones to the fighter borne ones.... the suppliers are few and the supply is less... After the successful demonstration EMB-145 AWACS the next step is not as big as the one taken from LCA to AMCA... hell they can even provide the RAW and IAF with desi versions of JSTARS... what we lack is infrastructure and semiconductor fabrication has been the bottle neck.

There are many projects running with different Govt, labs across the country, we get to know about them only when our armed forces show interest.. I wonder how many people here know about the heavy attack helo under development at DRDO... the media will talk about this only when the armed forces show interest... they are doing their job fine... to compete with China you got to have the manufacturing base it has, the infrastructure, till then delays are bound to happen no matter what we make... from assault rifles to AWACS.

 

[acetophenol]

oh I saw it with my own eyes in Agra base in sept this year...truely a beast in the air

Il-76 itself is HUGE,with radar,whoosh!

 

[sancho]

After the successful demonstration EMB-145 AWACS the next step is not as big as the one taken from LCA to AMCA... hell they can even provide the RAW and IAF with desi versions of JSTARS... what we lack is infrastructure and semiconductor fabrication has been the bottle neck.

That's exactly what I meant in the other thread! The overestimations of DRDO for example is one part of the problem, the other is our habit to hype things, although nothing was achieved so far.
There is no successful demonstration od EMB DRDO AWACS yet, since we only have a proven Brazilian aircraft, that has fitted some Indian sensors for test flights. The main part of integrating and testing the systems is still about to come and only then we will know how comparable they are to other radar systems.

to compete with China you got to have the manufacturing base it has, the infrastructure, till then delays are bound to happen no matter what we make... from assault rifles to AWACS.

And here we have the other problem! We don't have to compete with China, all we have to focus on, is to improve the security of India. Therefor we can use indigenous developments according to our current technical level, to set up an independent base of weapon systems, that we can produce in numbers, whenever we want, without beeing dependent on foreign procurements, or restrictions like in the past. The toplevel however can be co-developed, or
if necessary procured by foreign countries, because that's provides us with NG systems in a short time, instead of developing something in decades, what others had years before.
China don't have these options for the top end, they have to develop anything on their own and although they spend huge ammount of money, they still are not on par with Russia or the west and still will need years to catch up. India is even further behind and betting on indigenous developments only will not let us catch up and will hit our security capabilities today. LCA and DRDO AWACS are the perfect examples for this, where we hoped we can do it alone, but we couldn't, in the meantime our opponents got stronger, while our own forces are even in disadvantage now!

Again, we need more realism about what we can and what we can't on our own, just like what is needed today and what is in future! Looking around the world and dreaming about to compete with countries that have decades more experience, or that are spending way higher ammounts is silly and will lead us nowhere!

 

[flightlieutenantshikari]

Flying under an AWAC cover itself is a great experience,let alone in an MKI with an AWAC.
The amount of power you experience,the deal is a lot more simpler,just drive into the coordinates and hit the red!
No radar work to do,no scanning to do!

 

[sancho]

Flying under an AWAC cover itself is a great experience,let alone in an MKI with an AWAC.
The amount of power you experience,the deal is a lot more simpler,just drive into the coordinates and hit the red!
No radar work to do,no scanning to do!

That's why a complete AWACS coverage is so important for us, especially if we can link fighters like Rafale or LCA with low RCSs to them. They can stay passive and benefit from the long range detection capabilities of the AWACS and will be much more deadlier!

 

[DARKY]

That's exactly what I meant in the other thread! The overestimations of DRDO for example is one part of the problem, the other is our habit to hype things, although nothing was achieved so far.
There is no successful demonstration od EMB DRDO AWACS yet, since we only have a proven Brazilian aircraft, that has fitted some Indian sensors for test flights. The main part of integrating and testing the systems is still about to come and only then we will know how comparable they are to other radar systems.

The radar system has been under rigorous test for many years before being mounted on the EMB-145.

The AWACS program has been since a long.

And here we have the other problem! We don't have to compete with China, all we have to focus on, is to improve the security of India. Therefor we can use indigenous developments according to our current technical level, to set up an independent base of weapon systems, that we can produce in numbers, whenever we want, without beeing dependent on foreign procurements, or restrictions like in the past. The toplevel however can be co-developed, or
if necessary procured by foreign countries, because that's provides us with NG systems in a short time, instead of developing something in decades, what others had years before.
China don't have these options for the top end, they have to develop anything on their own and although they spend huge ammount of money, they still are not on par with Russia or the west and still will need years to catch up. India is even further behind and betting on indigenous developments only will not let us catch up and will hit our security capabilities today. LCA and DRDO AWACS are the perfect examples for this, where we hoped we can do it alone, but we couldn't, in the meantime our opponents got stronger, while our own forces are even in disadvantage now!

Again, we need more realism about what we can and what we can't on our own, just like what is needed today and what is in future! Looking around the world and dreaming about to compete with countries that have decades more experience, or that are spending way higher ammounts is silly and will lead us nowhere!

There has to be a level of ambition if we ever want to achieve any thing in future the bar keeps raising as the goals are met... even a runner keeps a goal before he starts and tries to improve upon it... China are a manufacturing giant... I won't be surprised if the parts used in Tejas MMR are made in China.

We have to realize our strong points and work upon them even if it means wasting time and some money... electronics has been our strength... right from the Avionics used in Su 30 to the seeker used in AAD interceptor all has been top class.

About the money part... It has been a sad part that our projects are not as funded and the flow of funds are hardly timely.
Besides that Neither LCA nor the AWACS was all alone projects both had good assistance from outside but timely withdrawal of support and lack of industrial base pushed them backwards.

 

[flightlieutenantshikari]

That's why a complete AWACS coverage is so important for us, especially if we can link fighters like Rafale or LCA with low RCSs to them. They can stay passive and benefit from the long range detection capabilities of the AWACS and will be much more deadlier!

In my personal opinion , Complete AWACS coverage isn't exactly a need of the hour as we have farely good civilian and military radar covrage throughout the nation.AWACS are better used for effective battle field management i.e to direct the birds on what to do.With the an AWAC cover ,the job of the weapon system officer (Wizzo) is largely reduced.He and the pilot is spared of navigational,target identification,friend identification calculatons.
Without an effective long endurance fighter like the MKI Awacs can't be Fully and effectively utilised.

I don't know about Rafale,But linking of LCA with AWACS will help in managing the sorties and situation but the idea of LCA remaining passive and using long range detetion capability of AWAC to take out enemies isn't going to work to the full scale considering the LCA's limited endurance and weapons capabilities,though the idea is good.

 

[sancho]

The radar system has been under rigorous test for many years before being mounted on the EMB-145.

On the ground, in test labs, but not mounted on any aircraft and even the mockups on the EMB 145 were used only for aerodynamical reasons, not to test the radar systems. Now when they integrate the full system to the aircraft, the real performance will be evaluated!

There has to be a level of ambition if we ever want to achieve any thing in future the bar keeps raising as the goals are met.

..

Why? Beeing one of the few countries in the world that develops an own AWACS radar system is more than ambitious enough and puts us already on a good level. Why do we always want more rightaway, inestead of inducting and improving the current system first? As I said, this is already an INDIAN AWACS, there is nothing more INDIAN if we put it on a bigger plattform or in a rotodome, so that purpose for pride reasons is already met. Lets concentrate now on what is the most important for Indias security and our forces and that is full AWACS coverage = higher number of aircrafts, not developing one of the most advanced systems.

We have to realize our strong points and work upon them even if it means wasting time and some money... electronics has been our strength... right from the Avionics used in Su 30 to the seeker used in AAD interceptor all has been top class.

About the money part... It has been a sad part that our projects are not as funded and the flow of funds are hardly timely.
Besides that Neither LCA nor the AWACS was all alone projects both had good assistance from outside but timely withdrawal of support and lack of industrial base pushed them backwards.[/QUOTE]
Raising the bar will be done by next generation co-developments like FGFA, Brahmos, MTA, Barak 8 and Maitri SAM (if I would be in charge also, naval AMCA, Aura UCAV and the future transport helicopter). These are the game changers for Indian forces, not LCA, not EMB 145 DRDO AWACS, or Astra BVR missile, but they still are important for the nation as explained in my earlier posts. Our ambitions must be comparable to our capabilities, the rest can be done with our access to foreign JVs, partnerships and even procurements. So why people always want us to limit ourself on indigenous developments only, when we have so much more on the table?

 

[sancho]

In my personal opinion , Complete AWACS coverage isn't exactly a need of the hour as we have farely good civilian and military radar covrage throughout the nation.AWACS are better used for effective battle field management i.e to direct the birds on what to do.With the an AWAC cover ,the job of the weapon system officer (Wizzo) is largely reduced.He and the pilot is spared of navigational,target identification,friend identification calculatons.
Without an effective long endurance fighter like the MKI Awacs can't be Fully and effectively utilised.

I don't know about Rafale,But linking of LCA with AWACS will help in managing the sorties and situation but the idea of LCA remaining passive and using long range detetion capability of AWAC to take out enemies isn't going to work to the full scale considering the LCA's limited endurance and weapons capabilities,though the idea is good.

Stationary ground radars can be evaded or jammed and they are limited in range and field of views. A single AWACS alone would offer better detection capabilities, than several ground radars, but with such a long border region, the current number is simply pathetic.
Btw, I think you mixing up AWACS escorts with fighters that benefits from AWACS support here. For example, if an AWACS detect an unknown target, not the escorts will be directed to it, but interceptors that are closest to it will be scrambled. So LCA could use full benefit of the AWACS radar, without using it's MMR, until it really needs to use a weapon. In case the enemy is a fighter, remaining passive is an advantage for the
LCA, since it is harder to detect and can put itself in the better position. The endurance or range in this case doesn't matter, infact quick reaction forces often carries only a minimum of weapons and fuel, unlike CAP or escort fighters.
If we can link Rafale, Super 30 and the AWACS together, we even will have an excellent combo for defensive and offensive roles at the eastern borders, but fighters alone simply isn't enough!

 

[The A-5]

@sancho

Well said, bro

Plus do you think there's any specific reason why IAF always goes for AWACS/EW systems mounted on jet aircraft?

Phalcon - IL-76
DRDO AEW&CS - EMB-145I
IAI Astra
Global 5000E

all jet aircraft, sure jets offer greater speed, higher altitude etc. against turboprop aircraft but do you
think there could be other reasons?

 

[DARKY]

On the ground, in test labs, but not mounted on any aircraft and even the mockups on the EMB 145 were used only for aerodynamical reasons, not to test the radar systems. Now when they integrate the full system to the aircraft, the real performance will be evaluated!

Tested on ground or air the Radar would perform as it is supposed to perform.. It will identify targets and give a track them accordingly.
What I am trying to say here is that capability of making such an antenna has been demonstrated...we can put an extra array in triangular form in S-band or L-band if required since we have developed our own TRMMs in both bands and have patent rights over it.
Hence it is not as quantum jump... which you are trying to make it into.

Why? Beeing one of the few countries in the world that develops an own AWACS radar system is more than ambitious enough and puts us already on a good level. Why do we always want more rightaway, inestead of inducting and improving the current system first? As I said, this is already an INDIAN AWACS, there is nothing more INDIAN if we put it on a bigger plattform or in a rotodome, so that purpose for pride reasons is already met. Lets concentrate now on what is the most important for Indias security and our forces and that is full AWACS coverage = higher number of aircrafts, not developing one of the most advanced systems.

We have to realize our strong points and work upon them even if it means wasting time and some money... electronics has been our strength... right from the Avionics used in Su 30 to the seeker used in AAD interceptor all has been top class.

About the money part... It has been a sad part that our projects are not as funded and the flow of funds are hardly timely.
Besides that Neither LCA nor the AWACS was all alone projects both had good assistance from outside but timely withdrawal of support and lack of industrial base pushed them backwards.

Raising the bar will be done by next generation co-developments like FGFA, Brahmos, MTA, Barak 8 and Maitri SAM (if I would be in charge also, naval AMCA, Aura UCAV and the future transport helicopter). These are the game changers for Indian forces, not LCA, not EMB 145 DRDO AWACS, or Astra BVR missile, but they still are important for the nation as explained in my earlier posts. Our ambitions must be comparable to our capabilities, the rest can be done with our access to foreign JVs, partnerships and even procurements. So why people always want us to limit ourself on indigenous developments only, when we have so much more on the table?[/QUOTE]

EMB-145 AEW&C is the requirement of IAF at the same time they also have the requirement for the larger AWACS... like phalcon.
Both have their own space is operational requirements and we cannot deny one and push other altogether Ignoring the need of our forces.

We would perhaps see more EMB-145 than the larger AWACS.

About China part I was not saying on technical level but Industrial level... every one knows we have a better electronic industry than what Chinese have.. thanks to the support form experienced players in the field... however in manufacturing we lack and fall behind them... which we need to built upon.

 

[PRINCE_THE_SHOWSTOPPER]

@DARKY,as you have mentioned the heavy attack helo developed by drdo..any link or proof of that or its just a hearsay???

 

[DARKY]

@DARKY,as you have mentioned the heavy attack helo developed by drdo..any link or proof of that or its just a hearsay???

There is no link and it is just on drawing boards and a concept.

 

[sancho]

all jet aircraft, sure jets offer greater speed, higher altitude etc. against turboprop aircraft but do you
think there could be other reasons?

Performance should be the main reason of course, prop aircrafts are more cost-effective, but if IAF can afford it, they will stick to th more capable versions of course, one reason why I doubt we would have taken the E-2D as shore based AWACS, when there are jet engined options with much more performance.

Tested on ground or air the Radar would perform as it is supposed to perform.. It will identify targets and give a track them accordingly.

That's the basic point, but what about the performance? Detection of targets at what ranges? We already know that the field of view of our radar array is lower than PAFs latest Erieye system and more comparable to the older Erieye.

Hence it is not as quantum jump... which you are trying to make it into.

Neither is it plug and play like you believe, but as I said, this is not the important point now, we need numbers, not a new type of AWACS!
So how about inducting reasonable number of AWACS to provide safty for the country and then trying to improve this basic system first, instead of going to a totally new design, platform, that requires bigger powermanagement...,
When the basic need of IAF to provide a good coverage of Indo-Pak / Chinese borders is achieved, they can go on to the next level, maybe for the shorebased AWACS requirement, but the country MUST come first, not the wishes of scientist or companies. Btw, that's the reason why many concepts will never get reality, because not all of them are needed!

EMB-145 AEW&C is the requirement of IAF at the same time they also have the requirement for the larger AWACS... like phalcon.

Which is not correct, because the bigger version is just a DRDO offer so far and not based on official requirement of IAF:

DRDO To Develop Indigenous AWACS

India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has proposed to develop an indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS)...

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/225670-drdo-develop-indigenous-awacs.html

 

[flightlieutenantshikari]

Stationary ground radars can be evaded or jammed and they are limited in range and field of views. A single AWACS alone would offer better detection capabilities, than several ground radars, but with such a long border region, the current number is simply pathetic.
Btw, I think you mixing up AWACS escorts with fighters that benefits from AWACS support here. For example, if an AWACS detect an unknown target, not the escorts will be directed to it, but interceptors that are closest to it will be scrambled. So LCA could use full benefit of the AWACS radar, without using it's MMR, until it really needs to use a weapon. In case the enemy is a fighter, remaining passive is an advantage for the
LCA, since it is harder to detect and can put itself in the better position. The endurance or range in this case doesn't matter, infact quick reaction forces often carries only a minimum of weapons and fuel, unlike CAP or escort fighters.
If we can link Rafale, Super 30 and the AWACS together, we even will have an excellent combo for defensive and offensive roles at the eastern borders, but fighters alone simply isn't enough!

As per IAF procedures,
The conditions when an AWAC is used are:
1.For AIR-TO-AIR roles:


This is used when enemy is likely to intrude into our air space and our own air defence assets are to be
in alert-stand by. For this AWACS will be flying with 4 Su-30MKIs as escort armed with upto 8 AAMS whileupto 8 Su-30 MKIs remain along as interceptors.In this type,every MKI will be linked with each other along with AWACS and every available ground assets (IAF Radar Assets in normal trainings and IA Air defence corps in special trainings). These group of AWACS along with 10-14 MKIs easily prevents any intrusion to an particular area of the air space (corridor).

The only fighter in IAF fleet which can be used for this is the MKI. We used to stay in air for 4-7 hrs in which we carry our food along with us and get to pass urine while in air! But the whole thing is boring as you are not supposed to pull out any manevours unless you get a target to intercept.

Once a intruder/ground target is picked up the interceptors are directed towards those points by the AWACS.

As per for the LCA or M2k (Mirage 2000),the AWACS will be less useful. M2k get AWAC cover only for navigation or battle management usually in the absence of a ground asset.