India should accept defeat before Kashmiris’ struggle, says Nawaz

[danger007]

40 divisions - 45 divisions?

Indian army is 35 divisions authorised as per government of India act and on ground ... all inclusive!!!!! You are hilarious.

Listen to the expert ..

 

[Hellfire]

@hellfire
I have to admit it that those are some well written "facts" and I almost fell for it until I read somewhere that Shiekh Abdullah(the so called Father of Indian Kashmir) joined hands with Maharaja to put up resistance against the Pakistani Invaders. This man is known to have put up struggle against Maharaja throughout his life and to make a point our Indian friends are saying Maharaja consulted his political opponent before handing over the territory to Indian rule which infact implies either this man was a fool or a sell out.
@Joe Shearer
I also came across a gem from the most respected senior Indian professional that Sajjad lone and MirWaiz are afraid of loosing their lives so that's why they are continuing to support freedom rhetoric and don't actually believe in it. I mean wtf he is allowed to question someone's life long principles without any proof in the guise of so called facts.

Sorry to say it @WebMaster but this forum is turning out to be such a disappointment lately in the name of internationalization.
Regards.

Post your references, so that 'you have read somewhere' is not the base of your claims and allegations. It has been deliberately posted in seniors cafe as the kind of troll fest usually comes from posting it with nationalism charged ignorants. And even the Pakistani Seniors who you lament have left it unchallenged know the veracity of the facts as being laid out. The posts we have made have nothing to do with either indian or pakistani views, but the series of events as occurred.

Neither are you fit to ascertain the loyalties of Sheikh Abdullah, nor am I. So mere compilation of facts.


Get your facts straight on following points:

1. The formation of Dominions of India and Pakistan by the Indian Independence Act of 1947.

2. The anti-Dogra movement led by the All Jammu & Kashmir National Conference (later National Conference) which was Muslim centric at inception and was secularised later.

3. The divergence of view of the above said conference and its constituents over declaration of a separate country by Muslim League by adoption of the relevant motion.

4. The circumstances wherein Sheikh Abdullah, even though being in jail, was consulted by Maharaja as he was the recognised leader of the recognised mainstream party of National Conference.

5. The letter of proclaimed loyalty to the Maharaja and his lineage as written by Sheikh Abdullah as recorded.

6. The Instrument of Accession signed with concurrence of Sheikh Abdullah by Maharaja with the conditions which most Indian members jump about here.

7. The ceding of territories of Hunza without taking concurrence of people of J&K either on your side or even for the sake of it across the whole of J&K, entering into a temporary accommodation with China as that boundary settlement is only provisional.

8. Historical facts of the history of the principle constituents of J&K as brought under suzerainty of Sikh empire and by continuation and expansion to British Empire in India as also the legal validity of all claims and territories thereof as being inherited by both India and Pakistan (this includes the territories you should have no ceded in Shasgam Valley to China which were historically under Hunza and when you agreed to instrument of accession by Hunza by default you were duty bound and honour bound to uphold those claims; which you did not)

9. The salient points of the UN resolution and Karachi Agreement of 1948.


I can go on and on ... but you can always consult.

If we were posting tripe, we would have been banned or simply not had the pleasure of getting the views and information from members of your own country who have given us greater insight into putting in perspective a picture of Kashmir that, I admit, even I was not completely aware of.

Example is of WAJsal whose magnanimity in spreading knowledge to those desirous allowed me insights I did not have of Gilgit so far. His write up is so eloquent that I am taking my time as I shall need to read extensively to be able to counter (if at all) any point where I may get a chance.

DISCLAIMER: ANY AND ALL TYPOS AND SPELLING MISTAKES THAT MAY ARISE IN MY WRITE UP IS THE WHOLE AND THE SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF APPLE INC. THEIR SPELL CHECK SUCKS BIG TIME!!!

 

[idune]

There are things that are more important than democracy and that is country's integrity. If you don't have country what is the use of democracy.

India is not a country BUT a land occupied by British imposition. Occupied land of Kashmir, Sikkim Hyderabad, Assam, Manipur, Nagaland....are not part of indian nation BUT occupied land by india. Imposition of a "country" and indian sovereignty does not apply, period.

 

[Hellfire]

@hellfire and @Joe Shearer are two not so perfect Indians and if you don't believe them then you have your own research

Oi, I resent that. What do you mean a perfect Indian? The one who parrots non-sense like which we accuse our neighbours of? Then, yeah, am not perfect..... but for me J&K's solution lies in between Article 1.1 of Indian Constitution and Article 370. Maybe I will stand for elections someday and then ask your vote and then will give you the political solution!!!

But have laid out the bitter facts. Read Chinese Campaign - Dalvi and Palit, you will call them traitors for what they write!!!!! One commanded the ill fated brigade and the other was in Military Operations.

Why is that it is so hard for both Pakistanis and Indians to accept the historical facts and make sensible decisions based on them??

On a side note: The Naga mess was much greater than Kashmir. In Kashmir we have an Instrument of Accession. But in Naga, they declared independence. To add insult to their injury, Nehru in his finite wisdom and infinite stupidity, gave the traditional grazing land of Nagas till Chindwin to Burma as a boundary settlement. That set off the most potent Insurgencies that India had ever known. We got two accords and the present Indian dispensation did exactly what we have been saying and our fellow nationals baying for our bloods over it - reach an accord granting autonomy to Nagas without change in boundaries. Things have settled. Modi signed it quietly on 03 August (I think)

When you can do that for Nagaland, why not for a state where you promised it? Anyways, that is moot point as already the state has that autonomy and it is only the Kashmiris themselves who run and manage the state government who are messing up by rampant corruption and poor administration.

I feel like I am in a round room which has no doors and looking for an exit

.Where does it say 'Pakistan Army' or ' Pakistan forces' in the resolution? IT DOESNT. The withdrawal only for the Indian forces. The troop withdrawal is only for Indians not Pakistanis.And the resolution is for J&K. not the other princely states of that time.Yes Pakistani nationals

When you half read and follow it up with absence of comprehension skills, we get retard post like this.

Counter-Narrative for your above point ..

1. Where does it say that India has to hold a plebiscite as a binding resolution?

2. Where is the date given for a plebiscite?

3. Who gave the criteria of plebiscite as mandatory for acceptance of Instrument of Accession signed by Maharaja of J&K?

4. If indeed plebiscite was the criteria, when was plebiscite held when you accepted the accession of Gilgit? It was not, merely the Gilgit Scouts mutinied and asked for accession .... at the point of a gun. Where was the plebiscite held when you signed the Sino-Pakistan Boundary Pact and ceded territories of Hunza State in Shasgam?

Another Professor of History, telling his-version of story!!!

Listen to the expert ..

Another dimwit. Unfortunately we have a few on our sides too. I enjoyed it till about 02 days back. And now @Dash et al have decided am not 'perfect' indian ... lol what is that?

 

[Joe Shearer]

.Where does it say 'Pakistan Army' or ' Pakistan forces' in the resolution? IT DOESNT. The withdrawal only for the Indian forces. The troop withdrawal is only for Indians not Pakistanis.And the resolution is for J&K. not the other princely states of that time.Yes Pakistani nationals

Do you have difficulty in reading or comprehending English? May I have the pleasure of reproducing the Resolution and of rubbing your face in it? A 'yes' or a 'no' will suffice.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

I feel like I am in a round room which has no doors and looking for an exit

The insurgency in North East DIED because of the Bangladesh factor

The North East states have realised over a period of time that only Indian Government and Indian Army can help them in the long run
from the un ending stream of Bangladeshis

Hence North east cooled down -- it is a case of SELF preservation
Some pockets of violence remain but slowly they are coming to their senses

Look at Assam -- voting for BJP

Kashmir is the opposite they believe that with Pakistan's HELP they will be able to break free
from India

Kashmir violence is Jihad against India

That is why Manipur cooled down being a border state

And perhaps you may be knowing about Manipur Nagaland conflict

Where both come running to Delhi for Help

The number of Forces we have deployed in North east for Internal security
is just ONE FOURTH that of Kashmir --excluding that on China border

 

[Hellfire]

India is not a country BUT a land occupied by British imposition. Occupied land of Kashmir, Sikkim Hyderabad, Assam, Manipur, Nagaland....are not part of indian nation BUT occupied land by india. Imposition of a "country" and indian sovereignty does not apply, period.

So says a Bangladeshi. Seriously, do you guys come here to prove the Pakistanis right when they say 'good riddance' to loss of Bangladesh?

Your these kinds of post do tend to push me to believe that .. and tends to make me be sympathetic to their POV about you as a nation.

Read history

East India Company

Vasco Da Gama

Any bells so far? they came looking for India

not for Sikkim, Assam .... lol and Bangladesh was old Assam!!!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Oi, I resent that. What do you mean a perfect Indian? The one who parrots non-sense like which we accuse our neighbours of? Then, yeah, am not perfect..... but for me J&K's solution lies in between Article 1.1 of Indian Constitution and Article 370. Maybe I will stand for elections someday and then ask your vote and then will give you the political solution!!!

But have laid out the bitter facts. Read Chinese Campaign - Dalvi and Palit, you will call them traitors for what they write!!!!! One commanded the ill fated brigade and the other was in Military Operations.

Why is that it is so hard for both Pakistanis and Indians to accept the historical facts and make sensible decisions based on them??

On a side note: The Naga mess was much greater than Kashmir. In Kashmir we have an Instrument of Accession. But in Naga, they declared independence. To add insult to their injury, Nehru in his finite wisdom and infinite stupidity, gave the traditional grazing land of Nagas till Chindwin to Burma as a boundary settlement. That set off the most potent Insurgencies that India had ever known. We got two accords and the present Indian dispensation did exactly what we have been saying and our fellow nationals baying for our bloods over it - reach an accord granting autonomy to Nagas without change in boundaries. Things have settled. Modi signed it quietly on 03 August (I think)

When you can do that for Nagaland, why not for a state where you promised it? Anyways, that is moot point as already the state has that autonomy and it is only the Kashmiris themselves who run and manage the state government who are messing up by rampant corruption and poor administration.

I feel like I am in a round room which has no doors and looking for an exit



When you half read and follow it up with absence of comprehension skills, we get retard post like this.

Counter-Narrative for your above point ..

1. Where does it say that India has to hold a plebiscite as a binding resolution?

2. Where is the date given for a plebiscite?

3. Who gave the criteria of plebiscite as mandatory for acceptance of Instrument of Accession signed by Maharaja of J&K?

4. If indeed plebiscite was the criteria, when was plebiscite held when you accepted the accession of Gilgit? It was not, merely the Gilgit Scouts mutinied and asked for accession .... at the point of a gun. Where was the plebiscite held when you signed the Sino-Pakistan Boundary Pact and ceded territories of Hunza State in Shasgam?

Another Professor of History, telling his-version of story!!!



Another dimwit. Unfortunately we have a few on our sides too. I enjoyed it till about 02 days back. And now @Dash et al have decided am not 'perfect' indian ... lol what is that?

You have now been paid the highest compliment of all. The Iago of the board has recognised you.

 

[Brickwall]

.Where does it say 'Pakistan Army' or ' Pakistan forces' in the resolution? IT DOESNT. The withdrawal only for the Indian forces. The troop withdrawal is only for Indians not Pakistanis.And the resolution is for J&K. not the other princely states of that time.Yes Pakistani nationals

Do u mean Pakistan army consists of citizens of Afghanistan or China ??

 

[Hellfire]

Do u mean Pakistan army consists of citizens of Afghanistan or China ??

Seeing as they are gladly ceding their suzerainty to China .. you may have an answer.

 

[Hellfire]

You have now been paid the highest compliment of all. The Iago of the board has recognised you.

Am honoured .. but I need to read a hell of a lot to start engaging you, so not yet at par with you ....

 

[Joe Shearer]

Do u mean Pakistan army consists of citizens of Afghanistan or China ??

LOL.

Post your references, so that 'you have read somewhere' is not the base of your claims and allegations. It has been deliberately posted in seniors cafe as the kind of troll fest usually comes from posting it with nationalism charged ignorants. And even the Pakistani Seniors who you lament have left it unchallenged know the veracity of the facts as being laid out. The posts we have made have nothing to do with either indian or pakistani views, but the series of events as occurred.

Neither are you fit to ascertain the loyalties of Sheikh Abdullah, nor am I. So mere compilation of facts.


Get your facts straight on following points:

1. The formation of Dominions of India and Pakistan by the Indian Independence Act of 1947.

2. The anti-Dogra movement led by the All Jammu & Kashmir National Conference (later National Conference) which was Muslim centric at inception and was secularised later.

3. The divergence of view of the above said conference and its constituents over declaration of a separate country by Muslim League by adoption of the relevant motion.

4. The circumstances wherein Sheikh Abdullah, even though being in jail, was consulted by Maharaja as he was the recognised leader of the recognised mainstream party of National Conference.

5. The letter of proclaimed loyalty to the Maharaja and his lineage as written by Sheikh Abdullah as recorded.

6. The Instrument of Accession signed with concurrence of Sheikh Abdullah by Maharaja with the conditions which most Indian members jump about here.

7. The ceding of territories of Hunza without taking concurrence of people of J&K either on your side or even for the sake of it across the whole of J&K, entering into a temporary accommodation with China as that boundary settlement is only provisional.

8. Historical facts of the history of the principle constituents of J&K as brought under suzerainty of Sikh empire and by continuation and expansion to British Empire in India as also the legal validity of all claims and territories thereof as being inherited by both India and Pakistan (this includes the territories you should have no ceded in Shasgam Valley to China which were historically under Hunza and when you agreed to instrument of accession by Hunza by default you were duty bound and honour bound to uphold those claims; which you did not)

9. The salient points of the UN resolution and Karachi Agreement of 1948.


I can go on and on ... but you can always consult.

If we were pointing tripe, we would have been banned or simply not had the pleasure of getting the views and information from members of your own country who have given us greater insight into putting in perspective a picture of Kashmir that, I admit, even I was not completely aware of.

Example is of WAJsal whose magnanimity in spreading knowledge to those desirous allowed me insights I did not have of Gilgit so far. His write up is so eloquent that I am taking my time as I shall need to read extensively to be able to counter (if at all) any point where I may get a chance.

WAJsal is only in his teens. Mark my words, we will hear more of him in future.

Am honoured .. but I need to read a hell of a lot to start engaging you, so not yet at par with you ....

Dear Sir, You have already gone past me. Ask the seniors. With sincere regards, 'Joe'.

 

[idune]

So says a Bangladeshi. Seriously, do you guys come here to prove the Pakistanis right when they say 'good riddance' to loss of Bangladesh?

!

Sure Bangladeshis know freedom struggle. Bangladeshis and in this case all Muslims should stand against indian genocide in Kashmir.

 

[Brickwall]

Sure Bangladeshis know freedom struggle. Bangladeshis and in this case all Muslims should stand against indian genocide in Kashmir.

You should really read your history particularly your forefathers rebellion against Pakistan ,your so called Muslim saviors.

 

[Hellfire]

WAJsal is only in his teens. Mark my words, we will hear more of him in future.

Kudos to him. A student of Political Science I guess? But damn good then.

Dear Sir, You have already gone past me. Ask the seniors. With sincere regards, 'Joe'.

Sir, learning still ... long way yet I assure you. But thanks to all the members here across nationalities who allow us to have insights which we are bereft of, and experience of all here, it is one phase of my life wherein I am learning faster than I can absorb. Thanks for your efforts in the same, personally and pointing me to people who have given me a different perspective.

You should really read your history particularly your forefathers rebellion against Pakistan ,your so called Muslim saviors.

Don't bother, he answered my question in 168# LOL