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India shot down its own helicopter while trying to target Pakistani jets, killing 7 – report

Please use some logic, had i myself been an expert, then why the hell would i have asked experts to answer my queries?? I don't know what fanciful titles you are referring to, however i believe in keeping my mouth shut, for topics i don't know much about and research or simply ask experts. Tom-toming about something you don't know, wont take you far..no??

My findings about IAF not firing BVRMs is that they were outranged by PAF F16's and in fact IAF is mulling over arming Mirages with Meteors, given that wont happen for MKI's(being Russian or for that matter Tejas with Israeli radars)...however i am looking for second opinion..so asked...now thanks for not dragging this further..

@Experts - does anyone have a view, as to why BVRMs were not fired by IAF? I mean, we knew PAF would respond, which they did. We have heard a lot about MKI's successful countermeasures against multiple AMRAAM missiles...but not the other way around..thoughts please!!

At least you have accepted you are no expert. To be honest I have not seen any here. All I see is conjuncture.

Simple reason, according to my understanding is that they did not fire because they were Jammed and also locked on, they decided to save themselves rather than fight. Hence stories of Su 35 trying to avoid Aim -120.

Those who fought were shoot down by PAF (2). This is the short of it.
Because Indians failed miserably to cause any damage to PAF, due to super performance of PAF's EW capabilities, the Indians wants to try something different like Meteors.

SU 35 cannot be used for Western Technological hardware, that's only left Mirage 2000 to be equipped with Meteors. Tejas' are not inducted in any great numbers, secondly they are still going further trials for another year+, there was no question of arming them at present, Israeli or no Israeli radar.
 
Please use some logic, had i myself been an expert, then why the hell would i have asked experts to answer my queries?? I don't know what fanciful titles you are referring to, however i believe in keeping my mouth shut, for topics i don't know much about and research or simply ask experts. Tom-toming about something you don't know, wont take you far..no??

My findings about IAF not firing BVRMs is that they were outranged by PAF F16's and in fact IAF is mulling over arming Mirages with Meteors, given that wont happen for MKI's(being Russian or for that matter Tejas with Israeli radars)...however i am looking for second opinion..so asked...now thanks for not dragging this further..

@Experts - does anyone have a view, as to why BVRMs were not fired by IAF? I mean, we knew PAF would respond, which they did. We have heard a lot about MKI's successful countermeasures against multiple AMRAAM missiles...but not the other way around..thoughts please!!


well with that logic, we are saying wreckage of F-16 fell on your side, which is where the dog fight occurred as well..so then may i say burden of proof is on you?? So please don't ask things that you, yourself can't provide...


I simply stopped at that line...if you can't even interpret such a basic statement from MEA then it is gigantic waste of time to explain anything else...if it helps, please try to use google translator
https://www.mea.gov.in/press-releas...atement_on_Doklam_disengagement_understanding

Also for god sake, transparency especially related to defense, is last thing we want to learn from Chinese and for that matter Pakistani friends. We have much much better record on that front, so spare me on that!!
Read it many times, your politicians said the disengagement meant Chinese withdrawal and BJP was harping this tune to the Hindu bots for months even to this day. Your MEA also claim a PAF plane was shot based on eye witness from ground troops not knowing that jet was IAF to begin with...lol...such reliable source.
 
Read it many times, your politicians said the disengagement meant Chinese withdrawal and BJP was harping this tune to the Hindu bots for months even to this day. Your MEA also claim a PAF plane was shot based on eye witness from ground troops not knowing that jet was IAF to begin with...lol...such reliable source.
I thought we were talking about MEA, no? Make up your mind and stop derailing the thread please!! Second bold part is just wishful thinking on your part...i can understand your extra love for India makes you write such gems, however i would like to be spared from that...thanks for understanding...
 
I thought we were talking about MEA, no? Make up your mind and stop derailing the thread please!! Second bold part is just wishful thinking on your part...i can understand your extra love for India makes you write such gems, however i would like to be spared from that...thanks for understanding...
Well your MEA used ambiguous terms like 'disengagement' whatever it means to give leeway for Modi to save face. How many times did Indian officials travelled to China? And how many Chinese went to India? Until today MEA cannot confirm where is your downed drone nor admitting who shot it down. So where is the F-16 you downed?

Notice how the Indian media is silently avoiding the F-16 topic now. Remember how Modi wished to have Rafael so things wouldn't have turned out like this? Lol
 
At least you have accepted you are no expert. To be honest I have not seen any here. All I see is conjuncture.
Well I don't think we would be lucky to have people from defense circles actively talking in such forums, so our experts will be enthusiasts, who are research scholars perhaps or know people who know things...and believe me, there are some decent folks here. Unfortunately, quantity here is killing the quality....

Simple reason, according to my understanding is that they did not fire because they were Jammed and also locked on, they decided to save themselves rather than fight. Hence stories of Su 35 trying to avoid Aim -120.
Umm..well disagree...Attackers will always have the benefit and i understand that MKI's were on defensive, however they were able to defeat AMRAAM's, doesn't suggest they were jammed...both things don't make sense, atleast to me.

Those who fought were shoot down by PAF (2).
Doesn't make sense again...from your version what i get is that MKI's ran for cover because they were jammed however Mig 21 went for fight? Also unless IAF/PAF show any proofs of second jet being down, we can only say 1 MIG 21 went down...If at all, circumstantial evidence points towards PAF loosing a jet. Again this is purely from your DGP ISPR statements. Initial statement was 2 Indian jets down, One Pilot capture, 2 on the lookout. Followed by 2 pilots captured, one in custody and other in hospital and hours later your President also claiming about Indian Pilots in custody...so it sounds very fishy that for hours, there was confusion among Pakistani official version, as to how many pilots they got. Having said that, for lack of solid proofs, we can only claim 1 Mig 21 shot down and 1 IAF chopper(though more likely by a friendly fire than technical glitch we initially thought)

This is the short of it.
Because Indians failed miserably to cause any damage to PAF, due to super performance of PAF's EW capabilities, the Indians wants to try something different like Meteors.
Comon man...how will Meteors protect Indian fighters from Jamming? Meteor is being preferred for its better range..PAF fighters will still deploy countermeasures to defeat missile...and how come this superior PAF's EW capabilities were somehow missing all the action a day prior? Please understand, there are many things we don't know...always a good idea to explore and ask, then believing the official versions...A food for thought, would you agree that your side is more secretive when it comes to defence forces as compared to their counterparts. If you do then it is logical to conclude, you may have to dig a bit harder.

SU 35 cannot be used for Western Technological hardware, that's only left Mirage 2000 to be equipped with Meteors. Tejas' are not inducted in any great numbers, secondly they are still going further trials for another year+, there was no question of arming them at present, Israeli or no Israeli radar.
You don't negotiate once everything is ready...b/w its been more than a year, Tejas has successfully fired BVR missiles. Anyways, as claimed earlier, for now only Mirage 2000 is a candidate for Meteor.

Well your MEA used ambiguous terms like 'disengagement' whatever it means to give leeway for Modi to save face. How many times did Indian officials travelled to China? And how many Chinese went to India? Until today MEA cannot confirm where is your downed drone nor admitting who shot it down. So where is the F-16 you downed?
Disengagement is a ambiguous term? Well only to minds full of nonsense...i am no scholar in English either however a dictionary might help you...b/w since you army is already there in Doklam, please check with them, if weather has finally improved there, so that they can start road construction there... now shall we concentrate on topic in hand?

Notice how the Indian media is silently avoiding the F-16 topic now. Remember how Modi wished to have Rafael so things wouldn't have turned out like this? Lol
Indian media is avoiding this topic?? Man we have general elections here...i know it is a foreign concept to you, however atleast try to come up with better logic/reasoning to prove your POV, no?

I can help with second bold part here...as per initial plans, we would have started adding Rafael's by 2015, which would mean almost couple of squadrons by now...would that have changed this engagements with PAF, hell yes. Anyone with an iota of brain would say, all else same, with couple squadrons of RAFAEL in the mix would have given IAF lot of edge...not sure, why it is so difficult to understand?
 

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