India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

Guys,EF Typhoon is superior to rafale in over all performance ??

 

[sancho]

tough to say, But I think it might increase....since there will be no split selection and also heard vishnu Some of NDTV today saying that the numbers might well increase.

Too early to say imo, because the costliest were shortlisted and we have to keep in mind that more MKIs and LCAs will be inducted at the same time, with FGFA closely following. I think it depends on IN ordering one of them too and of course on how capable LCA MK2 will be, the better the less chances for more MMRCAs.

 

[subarihant]

Wouldn't it be nice to have 60 Rafales with the Strategic forces command and rest 126 Eurofighters for normal service ?

 

[Mirza Jatt]

Too early to say imo, because the costliest were shortlisted and we have to keep in mind that more MKIs and LCAs will be inducted at the same time, with FGFA closely following. I think it depends on IN ordering one of them too and of course on how capable LCA MK2 will be, the better the less chances for more MMRCAs.

Good point.

BTW Eurofighter has already offered for the naval version typhoon.

 

[blackops]

Wouldn't it be nice to have 60 Rafales with the Strategic forces command and rest 126 Eurofighters for normal service ?

no just get one not 2 and stuff we should reduce the types of aircrafts in our inventory as it leads to maintaince and infrastructure problems

 

[blackops]

Too early to say imo, because the costliest were shortlisted and we have to keep in mind that more MKIs and LCAs will be inducted at the same time, with FGFA closely following. I think it depends on IN ordering one of them too and of course on how capable LCA MK2 will be, the better the less chances for more MMRCAs.

yeah but lets just round the figure to 150 or so i think that will be done and true about lca mk2 but what about those 42 lca mk1 when are they coming in service

---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------

Good point.

BTW Eurofighter has already offered for the naval version typhoon.

but its not yet developed while as n rafale is working pretty fine

 

[lepziboy]

what kind of aircraft does IAF need at this moment more on A2A or A2G?

 

[desimorty]

Tejas program being part of the larger deal with MMRCA means Tejas as of now is a flop, by that I would like to point a few points:

- It has been years and years since LCA and Tejas have been in "indigenous" development.

- Without MMRCA, India still can get complete knowledge and engine ToT for Tejas and LCA. This shows lack of confidence and a weakness in your jets with MMRCA.

- Would you be willing to spend billions on buying foreign tech or rather spend lesser in your own tech and produce at home, while spend the rest eliminating the poor millions of Indians from slums.

TOT(transfer of technology) doesnot allow you complete transfer of equipment, materials, designs etc etc...you are still dependant on the seller for a long long time as in the case of Su 30 MKIs. The spare parts are still arriving from Russia and the cost of plane is still the market value as sold to other countries although TOT has happened.

Rafale has defects, and all knows about it, rather I would ask you how many buyers are there for the over-priced Rafale jets?

You're really picking what you want to hear. Its called selective hearing.
No doubt the project has come under criticism. So was the Rafale, Typhoon, JSF etc...
The Japanese themselves are partnering with international companies to design and develop their next generation fighter aircraft.
Most of the goals have been met. Realistically, there is poor project management. Where Kaveri failed, it can be applied to the next gernation engine, that uses a M88 core. In the end, when ToT arrives, the Tejas will be more capable and more Indian than it is now.
The Su-30mki is not entirely built in India. Most the newer variants are though. Whatever is economical to build in India stays in Russia.
The good thing about ToT is that it comes with the equipment. While millions maybe in slums, the longterm solution says, you need to give these people jobs. In other words, teach them to fish. This is good for the Indian industry in the long run. Basically, through India's own effort. The Indian industry would have built up the capability but with time. But since India has shown good progress in it, why would a business man miss the opportunity to not only sell, something they could have, and sell it right now to pay for the their own companies expenses. While at the same time increasing their own market.

Your arguments, seem very weak.
The given is the poor project management in the Tejas. Given the QSR requirements of the Tejas, it is extremely high standards.
But this doesn't make the project a failure. Nor is it just a technology demonstrator, which the US Russia and China have built plenty of.
Infact, I would argue that the Tejas, has one of the lowest project costs for a 4th generation aircraft.

 

[Gene]

thats right.india select typhoon & rafale as MMRCA shortlists.

but someone tell me ye dono fighter kitna deti hai ????

 

[Mirza Jatt]

Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision

Following the ejection of the United States from the race to secure a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft order from the Indian Air Force, a top India analyst here said that there were many in the United States who would describe the Indian government’s decision as having “settled for a plane, not a relationship.”

Commenting on the shortlist announced by the Government of India on Thursday, which included the European Eurofighter and French Rafale aircraft but not the U.S.-built F/A-18 Super Hornet by Boeing and the F16IN Super Viper by Lockheed Martin, Ashley Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said, “The downselect decision clearly represents the IAF’s choice, which the MOD [Ministry of Defence] ] has obviously gone along with as expected.”

Mr. Tellis added that while both the fighters down-selected were “extremely agile platforms”, and excelled in “maneuverability, acceleration, and flight envelopes”, their “big weakness” was their primary sensor.

Arguing that neither the Eurofighter nor the Rafale had an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar – handy for stealth operations across a wider range of signal frequencies – yet, the bigger questions were “not technical, but strategic”.

Questioning whether these aircraft represented the best value for the IAF and the best investments for India overall, Mr. Tellis said to The Hindu that those in the U.S. who felt that India had settled for an aircraft over a strategic relationship would also conclude that “there is no reason why the administration should bend backwards to accommodate India.”

Mr. Tellis, formerly a senior advisor to the Ambassador at the U.S. embassy in New Delhi, a staff member of the National Security Council and Special Assistant to the President, also had critical words for the manner in which the decision was made and announced.

He said that it only made things worse given that “the GOI knew full well the importance the administration attached to this sale... [and] a quiet intimation of the coming decision would have helped.”

http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1819298.ece

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

now dont shoot the messenger.

 

[praveen007]

Good point.

BTW Eurofighter has already offered for the naval version typhoon.

so dose the Rafale. As they do have an oprational naval prototype on test in franch naval AC

 

[sancho]

true about lca mk2 but what about those 42 lca mk1 when are they coming in service...

...but its not yet developed while as n rafale is working pretty fine

Without any futher delays in the next 2 to 4 years, including integration of weapons I would say. That's the point, imo INs only option now is the Rafale, because the Sea Typhoon is a totally paper plane, without any future, because nobody wants it. Rafale is operational and would be a perfect gap filler till we can induct a 5th gen FGFA, or AMCA on our future carriers.

...Mr. Tellis, formerly a senior advisor to the Ambassador at the U.S. embassy in New Delhi, a staff member of the National Security Council and Special Assistant to the President, also had critical words for the manner in which the decision was made and announced.

He said that it only made things worse given that “the GOI knew full well the importance the administration attached to this sale... [and] a quiet intimation of the coming decision would have helped.”

Is he complaining that GoI didn't gave them the chance for backdoor negotiations? In that case, well done IAF/MoD/GoI!

 

[praveen007]

Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision

Following the ejection of the United States from the race to secure a Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft order from the Indian Air Force, a top India analyst here said that there were many in the United States who would describe the Indian government’s decision as having “settled for a plane, not a relationship.”

Commenting on the shortlist announced by the Government of India on Thursday, which included the European Eurofighter and French Rafale aircraft but not the U.S.-built F/A-18 Super Hornet by Boeing and the F16IN Super Viper by Lockheed Martin, Ashley Tellis of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said, “The downselect decision clearly represents the IAF’s choice, which the MOD [Ministry of Defence] ] has obviously gone along with as expected.”

Mr. Tellis added that while both the fighters down-selected were “extremely agile platforms”, and excelled in “maneuverability, acceleration, and flight envelopes”, their “big weakness” was their primary sensor.

Arguing that neither the Eurofighter nor the Rafale had an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar – handy for stealth operations across a wider range of signal frequencies – yet, the bigger questions were “not technical, but strategic”.

Questioning whether these aircraft represented the best value for the IAF and the best investments for India overall, Mr. Tellis said to The Hindu that those in the U.S. who felt that India had settled for an aircraft over a strategic relationship would also conclude that “there is no reason why the administration should bend backwards to accommodate India.”

Mr. Tellis, formerly a senior advisor to the Ambassador at the U.S. embassy in New Delhi, a staff member of the National Security Council and Special Assistant to the President, also had critical words for the manner in which the decision was made and announced.

He said that it only made things worse given that “the GOI knew full well the importance the administration attached to this sale... [and] a quiet intimation of the coming decision would have helped.”

The Hindu : News / International : Top India analyst criticises MMRCA decision

now dont shoot the messenger.

does mr. Nellis forget to read U.S.A. Gov notice that any country buying their arms is subjected to following laws CISMOSA, LSA, EUM .
INDIAN gov had done a good job by not selecting u.s. Planes

 

[desimorty]

What about you, you have "NONE" as compared to our JF17s ? And Jf17 numbers by end year would be 42. There is no envy of India getting Rafale or EFs but I was rather pointing out that your Tejas and LCA have failed completed with no operational squadrons and so goes that "indigenous" Indian tag.

Secondly, Rafale jet a rejected jet with or without Tot with such price is a "BAD" decision, I would still go for Gripen - NG, F-18s or F-15 the Silent Eagle(stealth) version. EF with anyone of my mentioned planes is far deadly combination than Rafale & EF.

Anyways GOOD LUCK with your purchases.

Because they appear in large numbers, does not mean that the Tejas has failed.
The 2 projects, are in different categories.
You're comparing a different airframe manufacturing process to something like a mutilated J-7.
The JF-17 uses C+ for its FBR. That is all you need to know what market it is intended for.

Thankyou for the link mr Indian, to finally prove my point, Rafale with no customers and a Gripen NG with " 5 " customers. You do the math, who wins, hands down. EF and Gripen NG, the better choice, FAIL IAF, FAIL India again!

QSR. Do you need a single engine aircraft or a twin engine?

Mr! Rather than waste my time with useless talk! You need to pay close attention what your fellow Indian "jatt" posted below with a detail example omitted here: My response was to his query who is clubbing MMRCA with Tejas, in point of fact admitting Tejas failure earlier and that is what I pointed out in my reply how Pakistan has gone far ahead with its programme.

How much of the JF-17 is actually new? The manufacturing plus the airframe is a mutilated J07 like the J-8.
Your're also comparing an aircraft that apperantly just breezed through flight tests.
What weapons have been tested? payload etc... everything to do with the flight envelope.
My bet is that the aircraft is cheap to produce. A complete flight envelope will only be opened in the next 3-5 years.

Continued...

Infact, India needs "serious" help from foreigners for its 'Indegenious' Aircrafts, which makes Failed Tejas development part of the deal with French & European counterparts i.e MMRCA deal includes incomplete Tejas/LCAs Development.

Am only pointing out the failures of India; secondly how best to utilize billions, and I feel no harm in being helpful to guest Indians on my forum, defence.pk.

Thirdly, LCA is a failure because no operational squadrons in IAF service, engine problems and testing problems with unsatisfied IAF pilots. Indian requirements keep changing which is as much a failure I guess. I do not feel the need to do research on a fighter aircraft which is not even a threat to PAF or anyone.

Lastly,Honestly how much is one Su 30 MKI costing India, that is the unit price? How HAL has helped to reduce the price by just assembling a plane in its factory ?

You don't know how things work do you?
People have been calling the Tejas a failure since 2001 and yet its still going. The same was said for the Arjun, Akash, Nag etc..
Like I said before, if HAL wanted to built a aircraft, they would have built Mig21 Jagaur type aircraft, that are already manufactured in India. Problem with that is the airframe, engine expectations.
Allowing aircraft to be assembled, manufactured in India does not make the aircraft cheaper to actually justify ToT costs. Reason why this is done, is so repairs can be done in house. Manufacturing process upgrade to bring the industry to current standards.
Equipment, parts etc... cost the same, no matter where you go. Especially with military equipment.
So a Su-30MKI built in Russia will cost less than in HAL. The Russian assembly line has made a profit and already has turnovers. HAL just invested in a new assembly line that needs to be paid off! plus the royality paid to Russians. But whats the advantage? Well, with future upgrades, more Indian make can be included into the Flankers, eventually bringing enough work load and jobs to India in the end!

hmm,can MKI fly without tyres,did anyone tell indian before that russia was offering china two type of su-30MK back in 90',guess which one we choice finally.MKI=华而不实，it looks glamorous ,but far inferior to F16C/D

PLAAF choice the plain flanker with ToT and export version of Su-30MK(K) specifically for PLAAF.
Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK biggest difference is not the Radar or engines, but rather the avionics and the easy pilot interface that allows the Su-30MKI be a swingrole aircraft. It can do both air to air operations and air to ground, in one shorty. The IAF even trains for it! changing tactics in the air.
Even the USAF doesn't doesn't do this yet. Of course the Hornet pilots may, but I don't think the have the pilot interface for it yet.

Logic states they should go for EF. No conflicts of interest with Pakistan. France unlike the Americans will continue to sell to Pakistan as long as we want to buy something from them. Its also several years a newer platform than the Rafale.

lowest bidder. that meets the minimum requirements.

Pakistan needs to act fast we should go J-10B as soon as possible otherwise it can be to late

PAF can not afford an arms race with India. That much should be obvious.

So Indians are celebrating with great vigor India's wholehearted efforts in financing Europe's ( the EU or France) next gen technologies far beyond EF anf Rafale by sending $10b hard currency on the expenses of its 800m hungry Indian souls and India's so called "indigenous" industries ?

India is finally shinning!

Or sorry, second thought $9.5b perhaps, after the usual deductions from those shining swiss bank accounts.

China has how many Flankers? Flanker engines? hmmm? some where in the 200s right?
btw half of the 10 billion comes back to India.

And I agree, for once, with most Indians here that either EF or Rafale is fine...


... since either su$ks anyway in front of J-20.

So why bother "selection"? I suggest just toss a coin to see which shining swiss bank account is fancier.


Hey, I'm looking for firecrackers, too!

because you know the secret of J-20 right?

HAL will assemble.

starts with assemble, goes further. Slow process, to soak in the technology and methods.

 

[500]

Question which missiles Rafale will use if selected: MICA? AMRAAM? R-77? Which targeting pod - Damocles, Litening III?