India, Russia revive 5th-generation fighter aircraft talks; Kamov cost negotiations begin

[INDIAPOSITIVE]

After a hiatus of nearly a year, India and Russia have revived talks on the much-delayed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Alsom cost negotiations for the joint production of 200 Kamov 226T helicopters have begun.

A high level Russian delegation is in town to hold negotiations on both the projects, high-level defence sources said. "We have got the clearance to restart the talks. Accordingly, a Russian team is here and cost negotiations began yesterday," the sources said.

India has already pumped in about $290 million into the project but it got delayed because the IAF had some issues. Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK-FA) fighter jets to India under the joint FGFA initiative.

READ ALSO:Can't keep waiting for stealth fighter, India tells Russia


Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK-FA fighters. In 2010, India had agreed to pay $295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter.

The code name of the project in India is perspective multirole fighter (PMF).

The Russian delegation will also hold talks with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 200 Kamov 226T light helicopters to replace the ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak, in a deal estimated to be worth $1 billion under the "Make in India" initiative.

READ ALSO:Rafale deadlock gives thrust to Russian 5th-gen jet project



The defence ministry had in August last year scrapped a scam-tainted tender worth over Rs 6,000 crore to procure 197 light utility helicopters for Army and Air Force to replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak choppers, which are used to move troops and equipment to high-altitude locations like Siachen.

Following Russia's offer to manufacture Kamov in India, the defence acquisition council, chaired by defence minister Manohar Parrikar, accepted it.

Though the initial order is only for 200 helicopters, it is likely to be increased later on.

India, Russia revive 5th-generation fighter aircraft talks; Kamov cost negotiations begin - Times of India

 

[cerberus]

After a hiatus of nearly a year, India and Russia have revived talks on the much-delayed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Alsom cost negotiations for the joint production of 200 Kamov 226T helicopters have begun.

A high level Russian delegation is in town to hold negotiations on both the projects, high-level defence sources said. "We have got the clearance to restart the talks. Accordingly, a Russian team is here and cost negotiations began yesterday," the sources said.

India has already pumped in about $290 million into the project but it got delayed because the IAF had some issues. Russia has made a new offer on the delivery of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK-FA) fighter jets to India under the joint FGFA initiative.

READ ALSO:Can't keep waiting for stealth fighter, India tells Russia


Under the new offer, India will have to pay $3.7 billion, instead of $6 billion, for the technological know-how and three prototypes of PAK-FA fighters. In 2010, India had agreed to pay $295 million towards the preliminary design of the fighter.

The code name of the project in India is perspective multirole fighter (PMF).

The Russian delegation will also hold talks with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited for 200 Kamov 226T light helicopters to replace the ageing fleet of Cheetah and Chetak, in a deal estimated to be worth $1 billion under the "Make in India" initiative.

READ ALSO:Rafale deadlock gives thrust to Russian 5th-gen jet project



The defence ministry had in August last year scrapped a scam-tainted tender worth over Rs 6,000 crore to procure 197 light utility helicopters for Army and Air Force to replace the fleet of Cheetah and Chetak choppers, which are used to move troops and equipment to high-altitude locations like Siachen.

Following Russia's offer to manufacture Kamov in India, the defence acquisition council, chaired by defence minister Manohar Parrikar, accepted it.

Though the initial order is only for 200 helicopters, it is likely to be increased later on.

India, Russia revive 5th-generation fighter aircraft talks; Kamov cost negotiations begin - Times of India

@PARIKRAMA Russian Cut Price By Half

 

[[Bregs]]

Russia and India both need each other to make FGFA fighter aircraft to success as no one apart from Russia will partner on this

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA Russian Cut Price By Half

I said "goodies"

On a serious note, Ruble devaluation is much more... so cost would have anyway reduced too coupled with negotiations..

 

[Parul]

Russia and India both need each other to make FGFA fighter aircraft to success as no one apart from Russia will partner on this

Iran can be a Partner in it, once the sanctions are completely lifted.

 

[cerberus]

I said "goodies"

On a serious note, Ruble devaluation is much more... so cost would have anyway reduced too coupled with negotiations..

Perfect Time to Seal FGFA deal then

 

[Abingdonboy]

@PARIKRAMA Russian Cut Price By Half

Does anyone really trust Russian cost projections? The Viky ended up costing >100% more than orginally planned, the Talwars came with a $100 million premium (about 30% the cost of a single ship) etc etc That too with considerable time delays (and this inherently drives costs up also)

The Russians are good at presenting attractive bargins today but they have consistenly screwed India in the long term. They can quote $500 million for all it is worth, it doesn't mean this will translate into how much India ends up paying. And let's not forget that a FGFA prototype should have been in IAF hands 2 years ago now, now it will be another 4 years at least before it can have such an opportunity.

 

[cerberus]

Does anyone really trust Russian cost projections? The Viky ended up costing >100% more than orginally planned, the Talwars came with a $100 million premium (about 30% the cost of a single ship) etc etc That too with considerable time delays (and this inherently drives costs up also)

The Russians are good at presenting attractive bargins today but they have consistenly screwed India in the long term. They can quote $500 million for all it is worth, it doesn't mean this will translate into how much India ends up paying. And let's not forget that a FGFA prototype should have been in IAF hands 2 years ago now, now it will be another 4 years at least before it can have such an opportunity.

Hmm That's Bare Truth
GOI should Tightly Negotiate with Russian This Time With Russian As We Have Options Now

 

[SrNair]

Russia and India both need each other to make FGFA fighter aircraft to success as no one apart from Russia will partner on this

This is not only about trust or cooperation .Sanction hitted Russia cant spare lucrative Indian market .At any cost they will try to keep up their momentum in here .
Another reason is that even Russian AirForce are not that convinced about FGFA/Pak Fa .
They are looking for Su 35 .
So the dont have any choice except the cut down of prices .

Does anyone really trust Russian cost projections? The Viky ended up costing >100% more than orginally planned, the Talwars came with a $100 million premium (about 30% the cost of a single ship) etc etc That too with considerable time delays (and this inherently drives costs up also)

The Russians are good at presenting attractive bargins today but they have consistenly screwed India in the long term. They can quote $500 million for all it is worth, it doesn't mean this will translate into how much India ends up paying. And let's not forget that a FGFA prototype should have been in IAF hands 2 years ago now, now it will be another 4 years at least before it can have such an opportunity.

Viky and Talwar episode worked on our favour .
Look at those deals with US .If Viki and Talwar was a fair deal that deals would be also worked for Russia .But Russians have lost a lots of deal .billions of $ ,from India .
Now we know how to handle their business deal .

On topic :Hard reality is that noone except Russian give you advanced fifth gen tech .So we need FGFA.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Iran can be a Partner in it, once the sanctions are completely lifted.

dont say that, you will give uncle sam and grandpa harry a heart attack.

i dont think anyone is allowed to sell weapons to iran yet, not so sure.
but i dont think they will be partners for the t-50, but a of the shelf buyer is more likely. but there is a report of iran looking at the su-30, also the deal includes co-production

Iran to Purchase Sukhoi-30 Fighter Jets From Russia - ABC News

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hmm That's Bare Truth
GOI should Tightly Negotiate with Russian This Time With Russian As We Have Options Now

India needs to start imposing some strict penalty clauses in their agreements with Russia.

Viky and Talwar episode worked on our favour .

Could you expand on this point mate?

 

[INDIAISM]

Does anyone really trust Russian cost projections? The Viky ended up costing >100% more than orginally planned, the Talwars came with a $100 million premium (about 30% the cost of a single ship) etc etc That too with considerable time delays (and this inherently drives costs up also)

The Russians are good at presenting attractive bargins today but they have consistenly screwed India in the long term. They can quote $500 million for all it is worth, it doesn't mean this will translate into how much India ends up paying. And let's not forget that a FGFA prototype should have been in IAF hands 2 years ago now, now it will be another 4 years at least before it can have such an opportunity.

Firstly Sir what makes you think that French are any different from Russians....

Secondly sir can you even think about a single project under Sickular Govt which was not hit by price excalation {except maybe C 17 or C 130}..

 

[SrNair]

India needs to start imposing some strict penalty clauses in their agreements with Russia.


Could you expand on this point mate?

Russians cant bargain with us as most trusted business partner .Not anymore
And that helped us easily buying most modern stuffs from US.
As a reply for Russians.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Firstly Sir what makes you think that French are any different from Russians....

Well they can't be any worse but I am more confident in the French's industrial and commerical activities. They certainly won't charge India for renovating their shipyards (ie as the Russians did with the Yanter shipyard with India's payments for Talwars).

Secondly sir can you even think about a single project under Sickular Govt which was not hit by price excalation {except maybe C 17 or C 130}..

Aside from the aforementioned Russian projects and US FMS deals, what exactly did the UPA buy? Almost nothing.

Russians cant bargain with us as most trusted business partner .Not anymore
And that helped us easily buying most modern stuffs from US.
As a reply for Russians.

Ah, so the Russians shot themselves in the foot and India was the long term winner because it forces them to look elsewhere?

 

[INDIAISM]

Well they can't be any worse but I am more confident in the French's industrial and commerical activities. They certainly won't charge India for renovating their shipyards (ie as the Russians did with the Yanter shipyard with India's payments for Talwars).


Aside from the aforementioned Russian projects and US FMS deals, what exactly did the UPA buy? Almost nothing.


Ah, so the Russians shot themselves in the foot and India was the long term winner because it forces them to look elsewhere?

★Scorpene deal
★2.4 billion dollar mirage upgrade deal..
★Price excalation in Kolkata class, IAC 1,Shivalik class etc...