India, Russia close to agreement on next generation fighter

[karan.1970]

Should the US be scare or worried? The one interesting statement is this though

FGFA negotiating hardball; Russia says India brings little to the table

Is this a fact or Russians lying? Please advice

My experiance with such multi part media reports is that they leave a controvertial statement as a summary of next part to ensure that the interest in the article does not go down.. lets see what comes out in the part 2 of the article..

cheers

 

[faithfulguy]

because US tech comes with restrictions and end user agreement where as in case of Russia we get complete TOT and in FFGA India and Russia is 50-50 partner

I do not understand the importance of having TOT when India is not going to do anything with the technology. I think India should buy and operation the best its money can buy and forget about inducting technology as it doesn't do anything with the technology. Furthermore, these tech are too advance for India's current primitive aircraft industry to absorb. By the time India understand the technology. The world is already in Gen 6 airplane, if not Gen 7. India by then is ready to retire the Gen 5 airplanes.

I serious doubt that FGFA is a 50-50 partner as Russia already finished the design and the spec before India became a parter. India is more of a junior partner. The only difference is that its a two seater, like a training aircraft. But in term of technology, its the same as PAK FA.

I think India is been foolish when it chooses an inferior technology when a superior technology is available. Also, India can't do nothing with TOT so it shouldn't even waste money on it.

 

[ptldM3]

Faitfulguy, US technology is heavily watered down, even Great Brittan complained that it was not happy with EW suits in the F-35. To compoud the problem there is always a possibility of sanctions.

 

[karan.1970]

I do not understand the importance of having TOT when India is not going to do anything with the technology. I think India should buy and operation the best its money can buy and forget about inducting technology as it doesn't do anything with the technology.
I think India is been foolish when it chooses an inferior technology when a superior technology is available. Also, India can't do nothing with TOT so it shouldn't even waste money on it.

Not really accurate. TOT allows local construction. example.. T-72s, T-90s, Su 30s and so on. While the initial justation period of the cost is high due to setting up of infrastructure for manufacturing, it results in 2 key benefits

1. Some degree of self reliance (largely in terms of production and to some extent in terms of enhancements). It also takes away the need to reverse engineer which is a very high end- high cost skill.
2. The bigger factor is that for all units manufactured locally, a large component of the hardware cost (except imported components) and 100% of labor cost stays within India economy. So while the per unit cost in initial years of manufacture for the defence forces may seem high, the cost for the country is low as a large part of the cost does not leave India. In short, the major chunk of the cost is in terms of domestic spend and not foreign exchange outflow

In my opinion, for India, this should be a major factor for all defence deals and I am sure this will have a lot of bearing on the final selection of the MRCA

cheers

 

[faithfulguy]

Not really accurate. TOT allows local construction. example.. T-72s, T-90s, Su 30s and so on. While the initial justation period of the cost is high due to setting up of infrastructure for manufacturing, it results in 2 key benefits

1. Some degree of self reliance (largely in terms of production and to some extent in terms of enhancements). It also takes away the need to reverse engineer which is a very high end- high cost skill.
2. The bigger factor is that for all units manufactured locally, a large component of the hardware cost (except imported components) and 100% of labor cost stays within India economy. So while the per unit cost in initial years of manufacture for the defence forces may seem high, the cost for the country is low as a large part of the cost does not leave India. In short, the major chunk of the cost is in terms of domestic spend and not foreign exchange outflow

In my opinion, for India, this should be a major factor for all defence deals and I am sure this will have a lot of bearing on the final selection of the MRCA

cheers

The reason that US doesn't allow transfer to technology is because of the nature of the advance US technology. European countries and Russia doesn't care about TOT is because their technology are relatively backward. So they use TOT as an incentive for India to sign up.
If India want the most advance technology. The only option is to purchase from the US. Even the water down version of US technology is better than cutting edge European or Russian stuff.

I understand why India want to train work force plus understand how the items are made. However, Europeans and Russians still do not transfer their most critical component technologies to India. So in the end, India still cannot build a plane without importing these compoenents. Finally, India has minimal ability to absorb the most advance tech so TOT is almost pointless.

 

[unicorn148]

The F16 and F18 which us are ready to sell are coming with complete TOT
F16IN and F18IN are the most sophisticated of its class
India is far ahead in aerospace than many countries you cant compare india with china . you boost US too much before 90's Russian aircraft were too superior to the US even now you dont know the capabilities of FFGA so better don't comment on it

 

[yashraj]

The F16 and F18 which us are ready to sell are coming with complete TOT
F16IN and F18IN are the most sophisticated of its class
India is far ahead in aerospace than many countries you cant compare india with china . you boost US too much before 90's Russian aircraft were too superior to the US even now you dont know the capabilities of FFGA so better don't comment on it

Sorry Unicorn but F16 and F18 are not coming with full TOT. in fact they are coming with LESS tot then other Planes. they are not offering us Single cristal blade technology of engine Nor advance RAM and AESA radar.

In my openioun we should go for EURO FIGHTER.

 

[Moscow]

guys just remember the RCS of the f-22 prototype was different from the present f-22 or many other features as well
the pakfa is still in prototype the final product will be much different also the FGFA will be different from the pakfa in not just the 1-2 seat config so wait both india and russia will have 2 planes of a single design with different characteristics

 

[karan.1970]

The reason that US doesn't allow transfer to technology is because of the nature of the advance US technology. European countries and Russia doesn't care about TOT is because their technology are relatively backward. So they use TOT as an incentive for India to sign up.
If India want the most advance technology. The only option is to purchase from the US. Even the water down version of US technology is better than cutting edge European or Russian stuff.

I understand why India want to train work force plus understand how the items are made. However, Europeans and Russians still do not transfer their most critical component technologies to India. So in the end, India still cannot build a plane without importing these compoenents. Finally, India has minimal ability to absorb the most advance tech so TOT is almost pointless.

You are right about incomplete TOT for F16 / F18. However the russian and the European bid is with complete TOT. As a matter of fact, Russia has even offered a JV with India on the lines of PAK-FA and Brahmos as a part of the deal to develop an advanced Combat Aircraft Radar System for India.

Also agree on necessity of imports of some components to build the complete Plan or Tank but then to my earlier point, the real cost to the country is significantly reduced as you are only paying for the imports from your reserves and not the whole equipment. Also at the same time, the flexibility goes up in terms of building blocks of the equipment.

 

[unicorn148]

Sorry Unicorn but F16 and F18 are not coming with full TOT. in fact they are coming with LESS tot then other Planes. they are not offering us Single cristal blade technology of engine Nor advance RAM and AESA radar.

In my openioun we should go for EURO FIGHTER.

ya or Dassault Rafale because its superior to eurofighter but if we opt for eurofighter we can choose its engine for LCA

 

[unicorn148]

the major clause in the MRCA deal is the aircraft should come with complete TOT with which HAL could manufacture planes in India

 

[sancho]

I do not understand the importance of having TOT when India is not going to do anything with the technology. I think India should buy and operation the best its money can buy and forget about inducting technology as it doesn't do anything with the technology.

It's only ur opinion that India is doing nothing with the ToT, but you are pretty wrong here!
The best example is the MKI, from this year on it will be fully build in India, without getting parts from Russia. This is a huge step forward of beeing self reliant, cause we are not dependent on spare supply from Russia, that caused problems in the past.
To be less dependent on others, be it on arms, or spares are the key aims for Indian forces in the future and you can only reach this goal by buying arms with as much ToT as possible (MKI, imo MMRCA), developing arms on your own (LCA, Arjun, Astra missile, LCH...) and in co-developments like Brahmos, Pak FA FGFA, MRTA. Russia is (so far) the only nation that offers us all these options, because we are not in a simple buyer seller relation ship anymore, but heading towards an eye to eye partnership in nearly all fields.
Compare that with the relationship of Taiwan and US please!

I think India is been foolish when it chooses an inferior technology when a superior technology is available. Also, India can't do nothing with TOT so it shouldn't even waste money on it.

Again you only see it from your point of view. If you see it more objective, we had the choice of just buying the F35, or co-develop (integrating indian systems and weapons), -produce and sale such a fighter. No doubt about that it was the right decision, which gets the most advantages for India!

- we get Russia closer to us than ever before and are less dependent on them at the same time
- get access on latest techs and weapons without restrictions and customized for our needs (compare that with Israel and UK that have so many problems to integrate any indigenous parts into F35)
- our industry will build not only parts for Indian fighters, but also for Russian and exports
- and we still have any western option available including F35

 

[faithfulguy]

It's only ur opinion that India is doing nothing with the ToT, but you are pretty wrong here!
The best example is the MKI, from this year on it will be fully build in India, without getting parts from Russia. This is a huge step forward of beeing self reliant, cause we are not dependent on spare supply from Russia, that caused problems in the past.
To be less dependent on others, be it on arms, or spares are the key aims for Indian forces in the future and you can only reach this goal by buying arms with as much ToT as possible (MKI, imo MMRCA), developing arms on your own (LCA, Arjun, Astra missile, LCH...) and in co-developments like Brahmos, Pak FA FGFA, MRTA. Russia is (so far) the only nation that offers us all these options, because we are not in a simple buyer sleer relation ship anymore, but heading towards an eye to eye partnership in nearly all fields.
Compare that with the relationship of Taiwan and US please!

Again you only see it from your point of view. If you see it more objective, we had the choice of just buying the F35, or co-develop (integrating indian systems and weapons), -produce and sale such a fighter. No doubt about that it was the right decision, which gets the most advantages for India!

- we get Russia closer to us than ever before and are less dependent on them at the same time
- get access on latest techs and weapons without restrictions and customized for our needs (compare that with Israel and UK that have so many problems to integrate any indigenous parts into F35)
- our industry will build not only parts for Indian fighters, but also for Russian and exports
- and we still have any western option available including F35

Are you sure that all the critical component technologies are transfered to India for the whole MKI?

I'm certain that it would take a long time for Russia to transfer PAKFA tech to India as India is not an equal partner. India is the junior partner to this deal. By the time India is ready to absort the technology, US already has the 6th generation prototype.

As US is the primary partner in JSF, it definitely has the control over the technology. The export variant of JSF is not as stealthy as the US ones.

 

[faithfulguy]

The F16 and F18 which us are ready to sell are coming with complete TOT
F16IN and F18IN are the most sophisticated of its class
India is far ahead in aerospace than many countries you cant compare india with china . you boost US too much before 90's Russian aircraft were too superior to the US even now you dont know the capabilities of FFGA so better don't comment on it

Russia never at any time has any aircraft that is better than the US post WWII. Because Pakistan relied on the US during cold war. Pakistani airforce routinely win the air battle over India. And the trick is simple, they get their planes from the US. Pakistan was an important allie and still is now for its war against terror.

I do not have to guess too much that no planes build within 20 year can touch the latest F-22 at the time. That is why I say unless India gets American tech (and forget about TOT as no country would transfer the most advance technology in the world), it won't have the best out there.

 

[Hulk]

Are you sure that all the critical component technologies are transfered to India for the whole MKI?

I'm certain that it would take a long time for Russia to transfer PAKFA tech to India as India is not an equal partner. India is the junior partner to this deal. By the time India is ready to absort the technology, US already has the 6th generation prototype.

As US is the primary partner in JSF, it definitely has the control over the technology. The export variant of JSF is not as stealthy as the US ones.

We are not in competition with USA.
We do not need to be super power, and I think we should not even try. We should be fine just being capable enough that we can defend ourselves.