India Plans Ten C17 Aircraft Buy Despite Boeing Plant Closure

[Rangila]

India Plans Ten C17 Aircraft Buy Despite Boeing Plant Closure

India plans to acquire 10 additional C-17 Globemaster III strategic airlift aircraft to add to its fleet of six planes acquired from Boeing over the past few years.

"The request for acquiring 10 additional Boeing C-17 Globemaster III aircraft is being processed. Such a purchase will give IAF significant global strategic capability", an official statement from the Indian government said yesterday as part of the year-end review of the Ministry of Defence.

However, Boeing had announced on November 29 that it plans to shut down the C-17 manufacturing facilities due to lack of orders after the last of the iconic planes rolled out of the pant in California, USA.

India had earlier wanted three additional aircraft and it is interesting the requirement has gone up by six even as Boeing started the process of shutting down the plant more than a year ago.

Unless there are order cancellations or the US governments accommodates India from the US Air Force inventory, chances of receiving the C-17s is bleak.

The last of the C-17s has been committed to Qatar, the U.S government had announced earlier.

"This is truly the end of an era. It's a sad day, but one that all of the Boeing employees and suppliers who have worked over the years building this great aircraft can be proud of," Nan Bouchard, vice president and C-17 program manager, Boeing said in a statement marking the end of production of C-17 Globemaster November 30.

 

[Abingdonboy]

"The request for acquiring 10 additional Boeing C-17 Globemaster III aircraft is being processed. Such a purchase will give IAF significant global strategic capability", an official statement from the Indian government said yesterday as part of the year-end review of the Ministry of Defence.

All well and good but no firm plan on how the MoD is going to source 10 addtional C-17s when there are 0 new builds on sale.

Unless there are order cancellations or the US governments accommodates India from the US Air Force inventory, chances of receiving the C-17s is bleak.

The SOLE option now is to go to the USAF's mothballed inventory- even if a few orders were cancelled for the "white tails" it would not be enough to meet this demand for an addtional 10 unless every single customer (RAAF, Qatar etc) pulled out, as only 10 white tails were made, and that looks highly improbable.

@PARIKRAMA @MilSpec @Aminroop @anant_s @Koovie

 

[Abingdonboy]

This issue was extensively discussed during Def min visit to US

Source?

 

[Blue Marlin]

theres one white c17 left

 

[Abingdonboy]

theres one white c17 left

There's plenty of brand new USAF C-17s that were mothballed on delivery that have barely any miles on them. The USAF's orginal order for C-17s had been completed by the early 00s but for poltical reasons they expanded the order to keep the Long Beach plant open and the excess supply of C-17s were put into long term storage.

The only option is for the IAF to dip into these stocks.

 

[gowthamraj]

I thought India already have 10 of these big birds not 6

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Indian DM MP may have discussed but white tails being limited, the chances are more or less marginal

You know what a good buyer is..
I want to buy 10 apples..
Sir I have 3 here, rest are already bought by other customers..

But I still want 10.. See I am paying you a good price too as u wanted...
Fine sir, if someone does not take then I will give u those apples...

After a while,
Sir, no one cancelled so only 3 apples are there..
Ohh I wanted 10.. So what should I do now..

Sir, I will give you oranges at discount.. Take that...
Fine just for you I will take the orange...



±+++++

So what's the orange
C130 xj/ Chinook/or not transport but attack platforms like Apaches..
Implying bargained deals well negotiated..

 

[Blue Marlin]

Indian DM MP may have discussed but white tails being limited, the chances are more or less marginal

You know what a good buyer is..
I want to buy 10 apples..
Sir I have 3 here, rest are already bought by other customers..

But I still want 10.. See I am paying you a good price too as u wanted...
Fine sir, if someone does not take then I will give u those apples...

After a while,
Sir, no one cancelled so only 3 apples are there..
Ohh I wanted 10.. So what should I do now..

Sir, I will give you oranges at discount.. Take that...
Fine just for you I will take the orange...



±+++++

So what's the orange
C130 xj/ Chinook/or not transport but attack platforms like Apaches..
Implying bargained deals well negotiated..

i love oranges. you can have more of them which can be dispersed evenly, as compared to apples, which are big and would need to be shared. but still some apples are needed as oranges cant do the job

 

[Abingdonboy]

I thought India already have 10 of these big birds not 6

Yup, the IAF is the largest operator of the C-17 outside of the US with 10 delivered and in service but their forecasted requirement was/is for 16-22 units but there are now 0 new C-17s for sale-that is the issue.

 

[Blue Marlin]

There's plenty of brand new USAF C-17s that were mothballed on delivery that have barely any miles on them. The USAF's orginal order for C-17s had been completed by the early 00s but for poltical reasons they expanded the order to keep the Long Beach plant open and the excess supply of C-17s were put into long term storage.

The only option is for the IAF to dip into these stocks.

your gonna have to ask nicely if you want them. i dont think there in storage as there busy in eastern europe, the middle east and north eastern asia

 

[Levina]

There's plenty of brand new USAF C-17s that were mothballed on delivery that have barely any miles on them.s.

223 to be exact!
And the last batch was inducted in 2013, by USAF.
I guess Boeing had sent repeated reminders to IAF and MoD officials but the legendary Indian Red tape and Bureaucracy could not judge urgent matter at hand, and take a call on pending request of Indian air force to pick up remaining 5 C-17s. Alas!
I hope we make it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Indian DM MP may have discussed but white tails being limited, the chances are more or less marginal

You know what a good buyer is..
I want to buy 10 apples..
Sir I have 3 here, rest are already bought by other customers..

But I still want 10.. See I am paying you a good price too as u wanted...
Fine sir, if someone does not take then I will give u those apples...

After a while,
Sir, no one cancelled so only 3 apples are there..
Ohh I wanted 10.. So what should I do now..

Sir, I will give you oranges at discount.. Take that...
Fine just for you I will take the orange...



±+++++

So what's the orange
C130 xj/ Chinook/or not transport but attack platforms like Apaches..
Implying bargained deals well negotiated..

I'm not so sure my friend. No matter how many Chinooks, Apaches or even C-130XJs you get the crtical shortfall of C-17s will not be addressed and simply can't be. I remember having this concern towards the end of the C-17's production run a few years ago when the IAF was starting to make some louder noises about a C-17 fleet beyond 16 and even mooting 22 as their ideal number. I could see how slim the chances looked and with the GoI/MoD not doing a damn thing to work on this requirement this mess has unfolded.....


Remember, right now the IAF has a 30 (ish) strong fleet of heavy airlifters with around 20-23 IL-76 and 10 C-17s in service. The IL-76s will serve for another 10 years but from 2025 this fleet will be phased out and so by the middle of the enxt decade the IAF's heavy lift transport fleet ( with far more demand on it than today ) will be 1/3rd of its current size as things stand today.

Something needs to be done to address this, a C-17 buy is the most logical but then there is only one option for that- USAF stocks and securing these will require some clever footing by the MoD/GoI, let's hope they are up to it.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I'm not so sure my friend. No matter how many Chinooks, Apaches or even C-130XJs you get the crtical shortfall of C-17s will not be addressed and simply can't be. I remember having this concern towards the end of the C-17's production run a few years ago when the IAF was starting to make some louder noises about a C-17 fleet beyond 16 and even mooting 22 as their ideal number. I could see how slim the chances looked and with the GoI/MoD not doing a damn thing to work on this requirement this mess has unfolded.....


Remember, right now the IAF has a 30 (ish) strong fleet of heavy airlifters with around 20-23 IL-76 and 10 C-17s in service. The IL-76s will serve for another 10 years but from 2025 this fleet will be phased out and so by the middle of the enxt decade the IAF's heavy lift transport fleet ( with far more demand on it than today ) will be 1/3rd of its current size as things stand today.

Something needs to be done to address this, a C-17 buy is the most logical but then there is only one option for that- USAF stocks and securing these will require some clever footing by the MoD/GoI, let's hope they are up to it.

Take it from me my friend, DM MP being a shrewd tactician knows very well that we need high numbers for our transport fleet but also knows there is no way to get it unless IAF agrees for Second hand 7 in numbers and 3 may be white tailed if available.. Judging from @Blue Marlin post only 1 white tail is available.. So operating say 9 second hand if at all will help short term goals but with limited lifetime of frames, the birds will retire also in next 15 years (i suppose). With still DM MP expressing interest it seems he is more of sending a message of being impressed with US weapon tech and is expecting more lucrative options for India.

I will ask a very hypothetical qeuestion here....

Assume DM MP says IAF has a requirement of say 23 IL76 replacements and also presume AN32s 100 odd in numbers. So he says to Ashton Carter, look i want to replace them all. 1to1 IL76 replacements and 1:2 An32.. So IAF has a need of about 70-75 C17s.. I can sureshot talk about 50 upfront and a follow on 20-25. So will Boeing shift the closed line to India? With say 12 birds a year production fully in India, the plant can operate for 5-7 years easily. Millions of job for USA folks too.. and perhaps you may get more customers too meaning a line in India can work for more than IAF order execution timeframe..All under MII initiative..

What do you expect Ashton Carter will view this as? What do you think Boeing Chief may come out with such a innovative request? After all he did claim that 18s can be made in India and we know new 18 orders are not there from USN....

 

[Abingdonboy]

223 to be exact!
And the last batch was inducted in 2013, by USAF.
I guess Boeing had sent repeated reminders to IAF and MoD officials but the legendary Indian Red tape and Bureaucracy could not judge urgent matter at hand, and take a call on pending request of Indian air force to pick up remaining 5 C-17s. Alas!
I hope we make it.

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the bureaucracy in this case @Aminroop. They certainly played their part but the timing was also very very unfortunate for India, the IAF were already the very last customer for Boeing and the follow-on clause was always going to be hard to execute. The IAF could hardly exercise that option and go for more before they had even received their last ordered unit- doing so would be have been highly improper.

Take it from me my friend, DM MP being a shrewd tactician knows very well that we need high numbers for our transport fleet but also knows there is no way to get it unless IAF agrees for Second hand 7 in numbers and 3 may be white tailed if available.. Judging from @Blue Marlin post only 1 white tail is available.. So operating say 9 second hand if at all will help short term goals but with limited lifetime of frames, the birds will retire also in next 15 years (i suppose). With still DM MP expressing interest it seems he is more of sending a message of being impressed with US weapon tech and is expecting more lucrative options for India.

This is the beauty of the offer, "second hand" shouldn't give any overt nagative implications in this instance. The USAF C-17s that are mothballed are all but brand new with very few miles on them and are being maintained with the explicit intention of being reactivated should the need arise. They will easily serve for another 20-30 years if they enter IAF service today alongside their brand new sister-craft. And I'm not sure if @Blue merlin is correct, I think there is a good chance there are 0 white tails for sale anymore.

Assume DM MP says IAF has a requirement of say 23 IL76 replacements and also presume AN32s 100 odd in numbers. So he says to Ashton Carter, look i want to replace them all. 1to1 IL76 replacements and 1:2 An32.. So IAF has a need of about 70-75 C17s.. I can sureshot talk about 50 upfront and a follow on 20-25. So will Boeing shift the closed line to India? With say 12 birds a year production fully in India, the plant can operate for 5-7 years easily. Millions of job for USA folks too.. and perhaps you may get more customers too meaning a line in India can work for more than IAF order execution timeframe..All under MII initiative..

Wow, now that is quite the fantasy brother, what a coup that would be!

A few points though:

1) The C-17 simply can't be a replacment for the AN-32, it is FAR too large.
2) I'd say the total number of C-17s the IAF could need by 2030 will be 30-40 units.



edit, Hmmm, I have just thought- the above deal (that you have proposed) is VERY similar to what the GoI is now in talks with BAE for with the M777- US orders complete and thus production has ceased but India is still interested and thus the production line is shifting to India under MII and the orders are being expanded (instead of 145 M777s, they are now talking about 645). These production lines have served their utility to their nation's military, I'm sure the USG/OEMs wouldn't mind earning some royalties into the future and there would certainly be some job creation in the US as a result (for supply chain and such), so why not? We are not talking about building the F-22 in India- this is not exactly classified tech. Of course a C-17 production line is a VERY different kettle of fish than a M777 one but still, in a utopian world this would surely be what the DM was thinking seriously about right now....


Interesting times indeed, I must admit I never expected to hear the IAF or MoD talking about their further order for 10 C-17s ever again- I thought that horse had bolted once the production line closed and the white tails flew out of the showroom. At most I thought the IAF would settle for the 3-6 that had been speculated earlier but this talk of 10 is most intriguing and a departure from earlier proposals.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I can assure you this government is speaking some serious stuff under MII. You know for sure 200 18s wont get ordered at all..So if Boeing does want to set up a line what can be the best transfer which Senate wont create issues and which can justify the transfer of an "obsolete" tech to facilitate greater India USA relationship... (calling C17 obsolete bcz its a old tech yet one of the very best tech and in true sense pretty modern).
Now question is why Boeing chief cant say yes to such a innovatice solution and win laurels and goodies..

OH about An32 part i suppose a 1:2 replacement implying a fleet of 50C17s to replace 105 An32s can do wonders or may be 1:3 types and say 30C17s and 15-20 C130s.. implying a total of 20 (IL76 replacements)+30 = 50 C17s minimum and a follow on order of say 20-25 based on expansion of operations and needs.
I am sure 15-20 130s can also be kit assembled here only in MII...

This takes care of transport fleet for 30 odd years.. May be with few more orders for say Australia, Singapore or Malaysia, C17s scope can be increased beyond India needs by say 5-10 jets.

Moreover the engines can also be partly assembled or made in India with aparts from Supply chain, a humongous scope for Pratt and Whitney folks.. They can then propose to make more engines in India for newer orders of Boeing birds too.. (a multiplication opportunity for our Domestic Airlines order too if they give order for Boeing birds)

Also India can become the first global hub for C17s outside USA a global MRO facility... Now that could be a huge gamechanger...

Vivid imagination.. lol