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India-Pakistan Missile Gap and the Indian Myth of "Indigenous" Bombs, Missiles

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RiazHaq

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A Times of India report last year claimed that "Pakistan has surged well ahead of India in the missile arena". It also lamented that "the only nuclear-capable ballistic missile in India's arsenal which can be said to be 100% operational as of now is the short-range Prithvi missile".

Along with raising the alarm, the Indian report offered the usual excuse for the alleged missile gap by boasting that "unlike Pakistan, our program is indigenous".

Let's explore the reality of the "indigenous" claim repeated ad infintum by Indian government and New Delhi's defense establishment.

APJ Abul Kalam is credited with designing India's first satellite launcher SLV3. Its design is virtually identical to the American Scout rocket used in the 1960s. According to the details published in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, Abul Kalam spent four months in training in the United States in 1963-1964. He visited NASA's Langley Research Center in Virginia, where the U.S. Scout rocket was conceived, and the Wallops Island Flight Center on the Virginia coast, where the Scout was being flown. Soon after Abul Kalam's visit, India requested and received detailed technical reports on the Scout's design, which was unclassified. India copied the Scout missile to make it SLV3, and its 30-foot first stage later became the first stage of the Agni.

India's other missile, the "Prithvi" (earth), which uses a liquid-propelled motor to carry a one-ton payload 150 miles, resembles the widely sold Soviet Scud-B. Indian sources say that the Agni's second stage is a shortened version of the Prithvi, according to Gary Milhollin of the Wisconsin Project.

India conducted its first atomic bomb test in 1974. Indians used 40 MW Canadian Cirus reactor and U.S. heavy water both imported under guarantees of peaceful use and used them openly to make plutonium for its 1974 nuclear blast.

In 1972, Canadian-built 100 MWe Rajasthan-1 nuclear power reactor became operational, serving as the model for later unsafeguarded reactors. Another Rajasthan unit started operating in 1980 and two units in 2000. In 1983, India's 170 MW Madras-1, a copy of Canadian Rajhastan-1 reactor, became operational. A second Madras unit followed in 1985. According to the Risk Report Volume 11 Number 6 (November-December 2005), the heavy water and other advanced materials and equipment for these plants were smuggled to India from a number of countries, including the USSR, China and Norway. Some of the firms, such as West German firm Degussa, were caught and fined by the United States for re-exporting to India 95 kg of U.S.-origin beryllium, usable as a neutron reflector in fission bombs.

In May 1998, India conducted two rounds of nuclear weapon tests. Last year, the media reports indicated that Kasturiranga Santhanam, the coordinator of India's 1998 nuclear tests, went public with allegations that India's Pokhran II test of a thermonuclear bomb in 1998 was actually a fizzle. The device, designed to generate 45 kilotons, yielded an explosion equivalent to only 15 to 20 kilotons of TNT.

There is plenty of evidence and documentation from sources such as the Wisconsin Project to show that the Indian missiles and bombs are no more indigenous than Pakistan's. The fact is that neither India nor Pakistan were first to split the atom, or to develop modern rocket science. The Industrial Revolution didn't exactly start in India or Pakistan or even in Asia; it began in Europe and the rest of the world learned from it, even copied it.

The differences between India and Pakistan in terms of the technology know-how and the knowledge base are often highly exaggerated to portray India as "technology power house" and Pakistan as a backwater. Some of these analyses by Indian Brahman pundits and commentators have racial and religious overtones implying that somehow Brahmin or Hindu minds are superior to those of the people of other religions or castes in South Asia.

What is often ignored by such anti-Pakistan Indian analysts is the fact that neither of the two Indian pioneers, nuclear scientist Homi Bahbha and rocket scientist Abul Kalam, belong to the Hindu faith or the Brahmin caste. The false sense of Indian superiority is pushed by self-serving Indian and some western analysts to justify their own biased conclusions.

These analysts have fed what George Perkovich described in his book "India's Nuclear Bomb" on page 410 as "general Indian contempt for Pakistan's technical capabilities" and may cause serious miscalculations by the Indian security establishment about Pakistan's defense capabilities. Indian chauvinistic analyses have been put in perspective by another piece in Newsday (Friday, May 15, 1998; Page A5: "India Errs Nuclear Power Isn't Real Power"), in which George Perkovich talked about the rise in India of a radicalized, ultra-nationalistic BJP for the "glory of the Hindu race and rashtra (nation)". Perkovich added that "the Bharatiya Janata Party, has long felt that nuclear weapons offer a quicker ride to the top. Like atavistic nationalists elsewhere, they believe that pure explosive power will somehow earn respect and build pride."

The extreme right-wing influence on South Asian analysts has the potential for serious miscalculations by either India or Pakistan in the nuclear and the missile arena, and it does not augur well for the future of Indo-Pak region and the world at large.

Haq's Musings: India's "Indigenous" Copies of Foreign Nukes, Missiles

Country Info: India - Wisconsin Project on Nuclear Arms Control
 
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Indian Army ready to induct long range missile Agni-3 | Buzz 7
i cant write more than this,also u have a right to make urself happy,but with truth.
u know this is 3500 km of range and u were talking abt prithvi.bhai search out the advance news,y ur wasting ur time in keeping urself happy.

On paper the Agni-II missile is operational and equips the Strategic Forces 555 Missile Group, but in reality the missile, which has been tested just four times in the past 10 years, is still under development.

Of a total of four tests so far - on April 11, 1999, January 17, 2001, August 29, 2004 and May 19, 2009 – the last was a failure. The missile wandered 180 degrees off track and plunged into the sea after 127 seconds having covered 203 km.

A newly developed missile, successfully tested just three times in a decade cannot be operational.

In 2008 there were news reports that a new version of Agni II is being developed under the stewardship of Dr Tessy Thomas, 45, who had been appointed project director in May 2008.

Tessy was earlier associate project director of the 3,000-km range Agni-III project.

Agni-II: Operational or under development?
 
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Riaz, excellent news for Pakistan. You should be celebrating ?
:cheers:
 
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Riaz, excellent news for Pakistan. You should be celebrating ?

It doesn't call for a celebration in Pakistan since we know it from long its just Indian people who took so long to understand and over come the hype & propaganda of Government of India which is used time to time to divert the eyes of general public from ground realities and make them celebrate the joys that Pakistan isn't in a good condition.

I admit, Indian government is more concerned of maintaining a healthy mood of general public in the country with out of the box solutions.

I'd love to hear from those self proclaimed Geniuses who keep bashing Pakistan. India is technology hub, Pakistan just knows how to copy!!! Where are you guyss !!
 
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Riaz sb:- You told me to take a look and see for myself that all your posts weren't just on "India vs Pakistan and the winner is Pakistan" topics. It is inherently unfruitful that you use all your intellect at proving we are somehow superior.

I'd at least appreciate if you focus on Pakistan more and contribute towards a healthy debate. I'm sure all of us can learn a lot from you.
 
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Maante hain Riaz bhai, hum bilkul maante hain ki Bharat ki missiles darasal phoren ka maal hai aur kaam bhi nahi karti.. Ye bhi maante hain ki Bharat mein garbage sabse zyada hai aur toilets sabse kam...

Ab is phorum ki jaan bakas do yar... tumhare posts se na Pakistan ka kuchh hona hai, na Bharat ka, jo hona hai vo is phorum ka.
 
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i smell :flame:

you are questioning the missiles being getting inducted after only few trials?? you should ask this question to ur "scientists" who could just remove the seal from the missile and fire them ...:rofl::rofl:

The best explanation for it can be found in the fact that it's a consortium development effort, as explained by ArmsControlWonk website:

Also, following from Geoff Forden’s idea of consortium development, early tests of the Nodong in Pakistan and Iran could also be considered part of the part of the development effort. (Iran’s first Nodong flight-test, in 1998, reportedly blew up about 100 seconds after launch.)

Actually, the consortium idea is not so new. In describing its research methodology, the Rumsfeld Commission alluded to it in its 1998 report:

We examined the ways in which the programs of emerging ballistic missile powers compared with one another. For example, we traced the development histories of the related programs of North Korea, Iran, Iraq and Pakistan and the relationships among them. This comparison helped in identifying the similarities between programs, the extent to which each had aided one another in overcoming critical development hurdles and, importantly, the pace at which a determined country can progress in its program development.


ArmsControlWonk: Why So Few Nodong Tests?
 
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Riaz sb:- You told me to take a look and see for myself that all your posts weren't just on "India vs Pakistan and the winner is Pakistan" topics. It is inherently unfruitful that you use all your intellect at proving we are somehow superior.

I'd at least appreciate if you focus on Pakistan more and contribute towards a healthy debate. I'm sure all of us can learn a lot from you.

I second this.

Actually.. somewhere down the line our genes seem to have mutated to a point that anything we think or do whilst in the sub continent becomes a contest.
 
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Revo,Adams jeep,Zabardast pick up truck,shehzor,And for truck companies Hinopak it makes big trucks and heavy equipment etc.
And about assembled cars dude xlis,glis,civic,city,cuore,mehra,potohar or samurai,jimny etc etc are made locally in Pakistan not assembled.
Its funny how a indian whose countrys 75% population lives under only 1$ is talking about Pakistan where the average wage of a day labourer is more then 5$.....Moronic troll.

You forgot to add Sitara. In India we don't call any vehicle with 4 wheels and a steering as a CAR.

It amazing that pakistanis know nothing about india and jumps 75percent living in poverty with rupee news as a source.Is it common for you if you failed to survive in front of us?

Pakistan isn't topping the failed state index without reason. It has loads of people who are busy fabricating propaganda against the world rather than look into their own problems, and then there always is that denial problem.

wasn't expecting this from Jagitnatt - its your 3rd post that i didn't like since yesterday and before that you had a very clear record history :D

@ 4 of you

All of u left BS comments with no reality whatsoever. All the claims you made in last 4 replies are false and MODs attention required before you further destroy this thread :lol:

Does it really hurt to post as a nuteral person/observor speaking TRUTH only and not taking side of either countries by showing wrong statistics or uttering BS?
 
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wasn't expecting this from Jagitnatt - its your 3rd post that i didn't like since yesterday and before that you had a very clear record history :D

@ 4 of you

All of u left BS comments with no reality whatsoever. All the claims you in last 4 replies are false and MODs attention required before you further destroy this thread :lol:

Does it really hurt to post as a nuteral person speakign TRUTH only and not taking side of either countries by showing wrong statistics or uttering BS?
There's been so much of BS on forum these days, that has tripped over the logical unit of my brain. :P

PAF getting the F35, Growler's threads, RiazHaq, MRCA not coming before 2035, Pakistan defense budget $20 billion etc etc. I just thank God Windjammer is not here yet.

I've been trying to put some logic but everything fails for some people. And we have freshers shouting at me how I know nothing about Indian defenses. :eek:

This is when I get my Trolling gun out and give them what they deserve, of course in the process, I end up blaming Pakistan for it.

Didn't mean though. Sorry Pakistan :pakistan:
 
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Somebody was asking why pakistan is backward.. Its this 'blindness' where india is gearing up for Agni 5 an Manned Space flight while u flatter ur selves with the pointer stuck at Pritvi and SLV.

India is competing and following chinna not with similar day dreams, but making real stuff.
You still cant launch a small sattelite that we did 40 years back and u still dare to compare with India?

such stories are only diverting ur youth in a fake dreamland where invention and indegeniousness dont exist.

Its 2010 not 1970. wake up.
 
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Some of these analyses by Indian Brahman pundits and commentators have racial and religious overtones implying that somehow Brahmin or Hindu minds are superior to those of the people of other religions or castes in South Asia.

What is often ignored by such anti-Pakistan Indian analysts is the fact that neither of the two Indian pioneers, nuclear scientist Homi Bahbha and rocket scientist Abul Kalam, belong to the Hindu faith or the Brahmin caste.

I wont get into the tit for tat on this Riaz, however was a little surprised by the bold part above. It would be the first time I am hearing this in context with missiles etc (though have heard about Pakistan's N Bomb being called the Islamic bomb a number of times)

Will be great if you can point me to such an analysis from some credible source. One learns something new every day....
 
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India copied the Scout missile to make it SLV3, and its 30-foot first stage later became the first stage of the Agni.

India's other missile, the "Prithvi" (earth), which uses a liquid-propelled motor to carry a one-ton payload 150 miles, resembles the widely sold Soviet Scud-B. Indian sources say that the Agni's second stage is a shortened version of the Prithvi, according to Gary Milhollin of the Wisconsin Project.

Some clarifications:

The first Agni (lets call it Agni TD) missile was a technology demonstrator and, as the name suggests, it was used to validate various technologies, most prominent of which was the Re-entry Vehicle (RV). The actual development of the missile was still underway and was quite far away from being fully functional. But testing of these technologies, like re-entry vehicle, terminal navigation etc. couldn't wait for the missile to be functional. It was then that a decision was taken to use SLV-3's 1st stage as missile booster and liquid fueled Prithvi as 2nd stage. Agni TD was born thus, as a testbed vehicle and not as a missile.

Agni II, has since been an all solid, 2 stage missile, very different in shape, size and performance. It no longer uses the SLV-3's 1st stage as booster or liquid fueled Prithvi as 2nd stage. It uses HTPB as its fuel as opposed to SLV-3's PBAN. Agni II is about 20 m in length, 1 m in diameter and has a launch weight of about 16 tons. Agni TD on the other hand was 16.7 m in length, 2 m in diameter and a launch weight of about a whopping 48 tons.

Also note, the chronology of Agni development is Agni TD, Agni II, Agni I, Agni III. The naming seems goofed up because the Agni is named on the basis of ascending order of range and not on the chronology of development. And Agni TD is no longer functional.

When Gary Milhollin wrote his piece in 1989, he was in no position to know about the details of Agni's development. He therefore had to rely on interpolation - the age old tactics of scare mongers. His piece was perhaps right for that time. But today, two decades hence, it has lost all its relevance.

Citing such article to prove that Indian missiles are not indigenous, is just a sign of desperation.
 
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