India, Pakistan locked in their animosities

[Awesome]

1. Use the good infrastructure we've built during these 5 years of peace.

2. Recognize that each country has blamed the other for tens, maybe hundreds such incidents. Most such accusations have had to be rolled back and the others were never proven.

3. Pakistan is yet to hang Sarabjit and India is yet to hang Afzal for terror incidents blamed and proven upon the other side by the highest levels of courts on each side.

4. Pakistan is in no shape to expand the issues beyond Kashmir.

5. Indians have come a long way since Gujarat 2002. India is striving honestly to integrate the Muslim population as normal Indians.

6. The meeting between Pak and Indian foreign ministers right on the day of the attacks was to give a formal statement that India and Pakistan will refrain from taking each others names right off the bat when such incidents happened. Let's act upon it.

7. Peace always trumps war. We can't discount the probability of terrorists on our side doing mischief in India. Let's face it, we've got a wild wild west in Pakistan where we are trying our best to control but its still quite out of our reach.

8. Like the people of India, Pakistanis aren't monsters who would be okay with the death of 5 people which leaves an orphan child in this world. We are not okay with acts of violence where children are murdered in front of their parents. We do not vote for such governments, our vote does not sanction any of this.

9. If rogue elements are found within our government, we would want them impeached. The same way you have forced resignations out of the incompetent officials who allowed this incident to happen.

10. We are no fans of Lashkar-e-Tayyaba(LeT). I for one think fighting for Kashmir is fair game, but if the LeT would take things out of Kashmir, it loses my support. My fight is not with the Indians of Delhi, of Mumbai. My fight is right till I fight the wrong. Which I believe is the Indian occupation, not the Indian.

11. The LeT has been banned. The LeT is not going around giving speeches in Lahore as it is perceived to be. First of all, Lahore is an extremely urban setup. If sometimes Hafiz has gotten away with giving speeches is because he isn't considered a high security threat to Pakistan. He spends most of his time in Kashmir. If he pops up from time to time in Pakistani cities, you should consider it a goof up, not an intentional ploy against India.

12. We should each consider our own people's involvement in all these incidents. About 10 incidents have happened in Pak which were termed by terrorists to be in response to "Lal Masjid". Instead of actually targeting TTP, we've always believed it is the Indians. If we, as Pakistanis, would take away the reason why Pakistanis choose to side with an external agency to conspire against Pakistan, then the problem would itself go away. Indians too need to start believing that there are Indians capabale of killing other Indians. Whether or not they did it at some other country's behest is a secondary issue. Indians want to kill Indians, that should be the matter for concern.

13. Once you address the factors (poverty of Muslims compared to the Hindus, incidents of massacre against Muslims, some provocative remarks by Superiority Complexed Hindu groups, etc) that encourages terrorism, you would've won 90% of the fight. Most terror fights are bouts of ideologies. You can't kill an ideology with a bullet. You need to show empathy. Even to the terrorists side. You don't need to bow down to their demands, but make an effort to understand.

14. Try to build bridges. Do something good for each other's country. It is very hard to punch a guy after you've received a favor from him no matter how wrong he or she is.

15. Remember terrorists are affecting us all. Work with each other. Try to distinguish between an enemy and a citizen. We have had many mechanisms in place. Keep talking to each other. Keep up the cultural trade. Don't stop the cricket.

Jai Hind and Pakistan ZindAbad, PaindAbad.

 

[Nihat]

seems you got Sick of Moderating Asim Sir.

All what you wrote makes perfect sense to me , If everyone can give up this blame game , hopefully the forum can become what it was earlier i.e. place for intellectual and technical discussions.

 

[Goodperson]

Countries were in the process of moving from the past I am astonished to see the anger among general masses in India.
I sincerely hope the Gunman caught is not from neighbor country.

 

[Neo]

1. Use the good infrastructure we've built during these 5 years of peace.

2. Recognize that each country has blamed the other for tens, maybe hundreds such incidents. Most such accusations have had to be rolled back and the others were never proven.

3. Pakistan is yet to hang Sarabjit and India is yet to hang Afzal for terror incidents blamed and proven upon the other side by the highest levels of courts on each side.

4. Pakistan is in no shape to expand the issues beyond Kashmir.

5. Indians have come a long way since Gujarat 2002. India is striving honestly to integrate the Muslim population as normal Indians.

6. The meeting between Pak and Indian foreign ministers right on the day of the attacks was to give a formal statement that India and Pakistan will refrain from taking each others names right off the bat when such incidents happened. Let's act upon it.

7. Peace always trumps war. We can't discount the probability of terrorists on our side doing mischief in India. Let's face it, we've got a wild wild west in Pakistan where we are trying our best to control but its still quite out of our reach.

8. Like the people of India, Pakistanis aren't monsters who would be okay with the death of 5 people which leaves an orphan child in this world. We are not okay with acts of violence where children are murdered in front of their parents. We do not vote for such governments, our vote does not sanction any of this.

9. If rogue elements are found within our government, we would want them impeached. The same way you have forced resignations out of the incompetent officials who allowed this incident to happen.

10. We are no fans of Lashkar-e-Tayyaba(LeT). I for one think fighting for Kashmir is fair game, but if the LeT would take things out of Kashmir, it loses my support. My fight is not with the Indians of Delhi, of Mumbai. My fight is right till I fight the wrong. Which I believe is the Indian occupation, not the Indian.

11. The LeT has been banned. The LeT is not going around giving speeches in Lahore as it is perceived to be. First of all, Lahore is an extremely urban setup. If sometimes Hafiz has gotten away with giving speeches is because he isn't considered a high security threat to Pakistan. He spends most of his time in Kashmir. If he pops up from time to time in Pakistani cities, you should consider it a goof up, not an intentional ploy against India.

12. We should each consider our own people's involvement in all these incidents. About 10 incidents have happened in Pak which were termed by terrorists to be in response to "Lal Masjid". Instead of actually targeting TTP, we've always believed it is the Indians. If we, as Pakistanis, would take away the reason why Pakistanis choose to side with an external agency to conspire against Pakistan, then the problem would itself go away. Indians too need to start believing that there are Indians capabale of killing other Indians. Whether or not they did it at some other country's behest is a secondary issue. Indians want to kill Indians, that should be the matter for concern.

13. Once you address the factors (poverty of Muslims compared to the Hindus, incidents of massacre against Muslims, some provocative remarks by Superiority Complexed Hindu groups, etc) that encourages terrorism, you would've won 90% of the fight. Most terror fights are bouts of ideologies. You can't kill an ideology with a bullet. You need to show empathy. Even to the terrorists side. You don't need to bow down to their demands, but make an effort to understand.

14. Try to build bridges. Do something good for each other's country. It is very hard to punch a guy after you've received a favor from him no matter how wrong he or she is.

15. Remember terrorists are affecting us all. Work with each other. Try to distinguish between an enemy and a citizen. We have had many mechanisms in place. Keep talking to each other. Keep up the cultural trade. Don't stop the cricket.

Jai Hind and Pakistan ZindAbad, PaindAbad.

This one is definitely a sticky!

 

[digitaltiger]

Asim,
I and every one in this poor subcontinent, who wants to live a normal life, would agree with you. I personally believe that "GOP" has nothing to do with at least Mumbai tragedy and they are trying hard to control their own troubles but we know that sum of all trouble between India and Pakistan is Kashmir and Muslim Extremist (around the world) has nothing to do with Kashmir or Kashmiri people, they are against every one who is not Muslim. (Forgive me if unknowingly I used any wrong word). How we gonna tackle this situation?

I planned to visit Pakistan next year; what if ROI terminates all relations with Pakistan , fish nothing is going right here.

 

[third eye]

Asim,

I appreciate this sensible post.

However, the maj issue for Indians is that :

1. No elected leader is or can ever be in control in Pak.

2. Continous double speak & U Turns by all - Dictators or elected Presidents leaves us wondering / waiting for a rebuttal that will inevitably follow non aggressive statements made.

3. Instead of interacting with the Pak Pres / PM , it may be better to interact directly with the ISI, after all they ALWAYS have the final say in everything so why waste time & raise hopes by talking with elected reps.

4. In Pakistan, the nation does not have an army, the army has a nation. The very existence & survial of such & orgnisation hinges on a fear psychosis that is created within Pak with rgds to India. No one dares to Q the Pak army , neither is there any transparency in its actions / expenses.

5. There are so many wheels within wheels in Pak that no one can have any faith in anything that happens or is said.

6. There would surely be sane voices, but the hawks have the final say.

7. No systematic apparatus in anything except issues related to the ISI which lurks in the shadows like the wives of kings in yester years who sat behind a veil near the king & whispered directions in his ear.. not permitting him to decide for himself .. finally having their way .. always.

8. In ability to accept realities.. Jammu & Kashmir will never change. The voter turnout in the on going elections anounts to a negation to the boycott calls by seperatists. Much that most here would like to have J&K, it will never happen.

9. It is very unsettling to live next to a nearly " failed state" which is endemically unstable , ungovernable & spreads its virus in the region.

10 . There are no superiority complexes..just as hindus have lived beside muslims for centuries so should muslims. It has to be a 2 way traffic.

11. The ppl of Pak may not be fans of LeT etc, but are responsible for their spawning.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Beautiful post Asim.

 

[Awesome]

1. No elected leader is or can ever be in control in Pak.

We haven't had many to say that with certainty. No dictator however can control Pak. We are a nation in infancy, and where ideologies clash, then mix and merge. You shouldn't compare us to India and say that they started at the same time.

India has its own problems that we don't have and the same way the problem of how to govern is still a very strongly debated topic in Pakistan as its one of those problems that we have since our inception.

2. Continous double speak & U Turns by all - Dictators or elected Presidents leaves us wondering / waiting for a rebuttal that will inevitably follow non aggressive statements made.

1. Actually its not so much as double speak, its just the feeling that India doesn't deserve a straight answer. We have helped the US and UK catch Pakistani terrorists, but there's something about India where we can just easily not care.

Past record? India has blamed us for quite a few incidents which were ultimately found to be not our fault.

India really bent its back to label us a terrorist start back in the 90s. People usually think India is up to the same tactics again. Such a thing hits chord with every level of Pakistani. I mean leave reputation aside, can you imagine the impact of such a label on our economy? How would we feed our people without trade?

2. The 2001/2002 incident. An ambiguous incident was taken out of proportion. India said it had proof of the incident and when Pak agreed to cooperate, then even banned LeT and the Jaish, India started talking about Dawood Ibrahim. I mean talk about going offtopic!

So again it was perceived that India just wanted to attack Pakistan and cooked up this story of an attack on the Indian Parliament and killed a few security guards in the process. When no one else joined India in its attack against Pakistan, they backed off.

3. Instead of interacting with the Pak Pres / PM , it may be better to interact directly with the ISI, after all they ALWAYS have the final say in everything so why waste time & raise hopes by talking with elected reps.

The COAS has categorically submitted himself politically to the writ of the civilian government. The COAS reports to the President and the DG ISI reports to the COAS. Remember the new DG ISI was okayed by even the US as he was perceived to go easy on India.

The current setup in Pakistan is nothing like what you describe. Otherwise we would've had a coup a long time ago given the poor performance of the civilians.

4. In Pakistan, the nation does not have an army, the army has a nation. The very existence & survial of such & orgnisation hinges on a fear psychosis that is created within Pak with rgds to India. No one dares to Q the Pak army , neither is there any transparency in its actions / expenses.

Again, this is pre-current setup. Even though I personally think the army acted in the interest of the country only, the current setup has brought full disclosure onto the table. Just pick up a copy of this years budget.

Our relationship was born in violence. Its much to simplistic to say that its the doing of the PA or anyone else. The kind of violence we were born out of leaves its mark on many generations to come.

5. There are so many wheels within wheels in Pak that no one can have any faith in anything that happens or is said.

Focus on the drivers.

6. There would surely be sane voices, but the hawks have the final say.

Pakistan does not have hawks and doves. That is in India. In Pakistan its more of a US style behind the scenes people. Like any other place, mostly rich people.

7. No systematic apparatus in anything except issues related to the ISI which lurks in the shadows like the wives of kings in yester years who sat behind a veil near the king & whispered directions in his ear.. not permitting him to decide for himself .. finally having their way .. always.

This is true about both our nations. Institutions are weak at the grassroots levels. Indian police is just as bad as the Pak police, which is where the problem all starts. The grass root level enforcers of the system are just a bloody joke.

But the behind the scenes people are not the ISI.

8. In ability to accept realities.. Jammu & Kashmir will never change. The voter turnout in the on going elections anounts to a negation to the boycott calls by seperatists. Much that most here would like to have J&K, it will never happen.

You can't put that up there. To say that J&K would never change is the premise of this fight. J&K is fair game for both of us to fight about. Its disputed territory. Mumbai or Islamabad is not.

9. It is very unsettling to live next to a nearly " failed state" which is endemically unstable , ungovernable & spreads its virus in the region.

It is equally difficult to co-exist with one which wants to prove that we are a failed state" which is endemically unstable , ungovernable & spreads its virus in the region.

Again this is seen to hit the common man. It is seen in Pakistan as an attack on their bread and butter, which will lead to giving India the snub whenever it needs anything from us.

10 . There are no superiority complexes..just as hindus have lived beside muslims for centuries so should muslims. It has to be a 2 way traffic.

If you see the Indian documentary loose change that is what the Hindu terrorists of Gujarat promote. That is why since 1993 Hindus and Muslims have their own localities in almost all areas of India. Hindus live in the same localities within Pakistan. Unlike in India, the patriotism of Hindu Pakistanis has never come into question within Pakistan.

11. The ppl of Pak may not be fans of LeT etc, but are responsible for their spawning.

Yes but our vote is for them to go and fight in Kashmir against the Indian Army not anywhere else and with anyone else. Which is why I would prefer if the government supported the Hizb ul Mujahideen which executes its missions a lot more cleanly and has the support the ISI, the PA and everyone in government for this very reason.

 

[Vinod2070]

I never thought I would ever see that but a post from Asim made me emotional.

 

[third eye]

Asim,

You have rightly defended ur country & its issues. I have added my comments / replies in colour below each.

We haven't had many to say that with certainty. No dictator however can control Pak. We are a nation in infancy, and where ideologies clash, then mix and merge. You shouldn't compare us to India and say that they started at the same time.

After 60 yrs plus, how can a nation still be in infancy ? A bit of an over grown child.. eh ? In any case its about time Pakistan grew up.Its " childish" pranks are causing a great deal of grief to the region.

India has its own problems that we don't have and the same way the problem of how to govern is still a very strongly debated topic in Pakistan as its one of those problems that we have since our inception.
Half a century is a very long time to decide. Outsiders feel that the intervention of the army has permanently muddied the waters in Pak. Even after losing its E Wing, instead of drawing relevant lessons & progressing, things have mostly been retrograde.


1. Actually its not so much as double speak, its just the feeling that India doesn't deserve a straight answer. We have helped the US and UK catch Pakistani terrorists, but there's something about India where we can just easily not care.

Oh C'mon, Ok India does not deserve a straight ans ( as per you) what ablout the others ? the primary reason for the probs in Pak is the U Turn Mush did with the Taliban when his tail was twisted by the US ? Even as Nawaz was signing a treaty in Lahore , his Army was intruding into India.. where is double speak, There are so many other instances. Double speak is simply coz like I said the ISI, Army & other vested interests will not let things move forward as they then get threatened . You have to accept the fact that Pak as a nation is not in control of those in Islamabad. When 93000 POWs were in India Bhutto touched his toes to save himself, Indians foolishly gave in & took his word.

Past record? India has blamed us for quite a few incidents which were ultimately found to be not our fault.

India really bent its back to label us a terrorist start back in the 90s. People usually think India is up to the same tactics again. Such a thing hits chord with every level of Pakistani. I mean leave reputation aside, can you imagine the impact of such a label on our economy? How would we feed our people without trade?

2. The 2001/2002 incident. An ambiguous incident was taken out of proportion. India said it had proof of the incident and when Pak agreed to cooperate, then even banned LeT and the Jaish, India started talking about Dawood Ibrahim. I mean talk about going offtopic!

So again it was perceived that India just wanted to attack Pakistan and cooked up this story of an attack on the Indian Parliament and killed a few security guards in the process. When no one else joined India in its attack against Pakistan, they backed off.


The COAS has categorically submitted himself politically to the writ of the civilian government. The COAS reports to the President and the DG ISI reports to the COAS. Remember the new DG ISI was okayed by even the US as he was perceived to go easy on India.

Thats just the point, ppl in high places in Pak are okayed by those outside the country..

The current setup in Pakistan is nothing like what you describe. Otherwise we would've had a coup a long time ago given the poor performance of the civilians.
The only reason why there is no Coup in Pak so far that US intersts will be compromised. Not for the love or respect of the land.



Again, this is pre-current setup. Even though I personally think the army acted in the interest of the country only, the current setup has brought full disclosure onto the table. Just pick up a copy of this years budget.

Our relationship was born in violence. Its much to simplistic to say that its the doing of the PA or anyone else. The kind of violence we were born out of leaves its mark on many generations to come.


Focus on the drivers.

Its the drivers who are responsible for the U Turns. Some of them are behind the wheel, the rest are back seat drivers ( who are worse).


Pakistan does not have hawks and doves. That is in India. In Pakistan its more of a US style behind the scenes people. Like any other place, mostly rich people.



This is true about both our nations. Institutions are weak at the grassroots levels. Indian police is just as bad as the Pak police, which is where the problem all starts. The grass root level enforcers of the system are just a bloody joke.

The police is not an institution by itself, its a part of the adminstrative institution. The main institutions of a nation are the Judiciary, Executive,legislature..all of which in Pak are overshadowed / overwhelmed/ subjugated by the Army

But the behind the scenes people are not the ISI.


You can't put that up there. To say that J&K would never change is the premise of this fight. J&K is fair game for both of us to fight about. Its disputed territory. Mumbai or Islamabad is not.
appreciate ur point on Mumbai ? Islamabad. But the realities have to be accepted. Wars have been fought, Nukes have been procured.. yet what has changed on the ground ??

It is equally difficult to co-exist with one which wants to prove that we are a failed state" which is endemically unstable , ungovernable & spreads its virus in the region.
India does not want to label Pak a failed state, we have to live next to it. The world is ...if there were no bailouts,Pak would have defaulted..
Again this is seen to hit the common man. It is seen in Pakistan as an attack on their bread and butter, which will lead to giving India the snub whenever it needs anything from us.


If you see the Indian documentary loose change that is what the Hindu terrorists of Gujarat promote. That is why since 1993 Hindus and Muslims have their own localities in almost all areas of India. Hindus live in the same localities within Pakistan. Unlike in India, the patriotism of Hindu Pakistanis has never come into question within Pakistan.

Not since 1993, they have lived in seperate localities in most towns & cities since as long as anyone can remember.. even before partition.Nothing is new here, its just that like Hindus lived with Muslims for centuries, muslims too have to do the same.


Yes but our vote is for them to go and fight in Kashmir against the Indian Army not anywhere else and with anyone else. Which is why I would prefer if the government supported the Hizb ul Mujahideen which executes its missions a lot more cleanly and has the support the ISI, the PA and everyone in government for this very reason.

Can anyone control a frankistien once he creates it ? Short sighted policies by immature ppl at the helm have led Pak & the region to the mess it forever seems to be in.

 

[Dhruv]

1. Use the good infrastructure we've built during these 5 years of peace.

2. Recognize that each country has blamed the other for tens, maybe hundreds such incidents. Most such accusations have had to be rolled back and the others were never proven.

3. Pakistan is yet to hang Sarabjit and India is yet to hang Afzal for terror incidents blamed and proven upon the other side by the highest levels of courts on each side.

4. Pakistan is in no shape to expand the issues beyond Kashmir.

5. Indians have come a long way since Gujarat 2002. India is striving honestly to integrate the Muslim population as normal Indians.

6. The meeting between Pak and Indian foreign ministers right on the day of the attacks was to give a formal statement that India and Pakistan will refrain from taking each others names right off the bat when such incidents happened. Let's act upon it.

7. Peace always trumps war. We can't discount the probability of terrorists on our side doing mischief in India. Let's face it, we've got a wild wild west in Pakistan where we are trying our best to control but its still quite out of our reach.

8. Like the people of India, Pakistanis aren't monsters who would be okay with the death of 5 people which leaves an orphan child in this world. We are not okay with acts of violence where children are murdered in front of their parents. We do not vote for such governments, our vote does not sanction any of this.

9. If rogue elements are found within our government, we would want them impeached. The same way you have forced resignations out of the incompetent officials who allowed this incident to happen.

10. We are no fans of Lashkar-e-Tayyaba(LeT). I for one think fighting for Kashmir is fair game, but if the LeT would take things out of Kashmir, it loses my support. My fight is not with the Indians of Delhi, of Mumbai. My fight is right till I fight the wrong. Which I believe is the Indian occupation, not the Indian.

11. The LeT has been banned. The LeT is not going around giving speeches in Lahore as it is perceived to be. First of all, Lahore is an extremely urban setup. If sometimes Hafiz has gotten away with giving speeches is because he isn't considered a high security threat to Pakistan. He spends most of his time in Kashmir. If he pops up from time to time in Pakistani cities, you should consider it a goof up, not an intentional ploy against India.

12. We should each consider our own people's involvement in all these incidents. About 10 incidents have happened in Pak which were termed by terrorists to be in response to "Lal Masjid". Instead of actually targeting TTP, we've always believed it is the Indians. If we, as Pakistanis, would take away the reason why Pakistanis choose to side with an external agency to conspire against Pakistan, then the problem would itself go away. Indians too need to start believing that there are Indians capabale of killing other Indians. Whether or not they did it at some other country's behest is a secondary issue. Indians want to kill Indians, that should be the matter for concern.

13. Once you address the factors (poverty of Muslims compared to the Hindus, incidents of massacre against Muslims, some provocative remarks by Superiority Complexed Hindu groups, etc) that encourages terrorism, you would've won 90% of the fight. Most terror fights are bouts of ideologies. You can't kill an ideology with a bullet. You need to show empathy. Even to the terrorists side. You don't need to bow down to their demands, but make an effort to understand.

14. Try to build bridges. Do something good for each other's country. It is very hard to punch a guy after you've received a favor from him no matter how wrong he or she is.

15. Remember terrorists are affecting us all. Work with each other. Try to distinguish between an enemy and a citizen. We have had many mechanisms in place. Keep talking to each other. Keep up the cultural trade. Don't stop the cricket.

Jai Hind and Pakistan ZindAbad, PaindAbad.

Asim Aquil

I have not seen a better post in here yet. And I doubt if I easily would.

I can not use thanks since I am fresh member here, but I just wanted to recognize the unwaivering truth, and positivity in your post doesn't go unnoticed.

Most of the times I see bickering, people with their eyes closed and necks deep in the history that plagues our countries. History that started from barbarians, invaders, and even before.

It is a matter of choice, to fight and die, or open our eyes and try to fix things so we can move on.

Only, it doesn't look so simple when we see millions of inter twined issues and plethora of incidents happening all around.

But in the end, it still is kind of simple. Fix, and move on, or stagnate and die.

We've been gunning at each other for too long now, already.

 

[Dhruv]

Asim,

You have rightly defended ur country & its issues. I have added my comments / replies in colour below each.



Can anyone control a frankistien once he creates it ? Short sighted policies by immature ppl at the helm have led Pak & the region to the mess it forever seems to be in.

Third Eye,

The posting from Asim, was precisely to talk about measures going forward.

You still look stuck, and I am not sure if you got the gist of what he said.

His points may not be as important, as the crux of that post. So nitpicking, and running another finger pointing fest as if India has been all right and cool always, is kind of a silly stand.

It is not my business to tell you this, but I am not feeling proud in reading usual blame game going on in a beautiful post like this, which precisely talks about moving ON.

 

[Vinod2070]

We are a strange breed of people. We hate passionately and don't think twice about destroying ourselves if we can cause our "enemy" some harm in the bargain.

And it doesn't take much for us to shower love on the same "enemy". So obvious when people like Nusarat Fateh Ali Khan and other great Pakistan artists come to India or there is a reverse flow of Indian artists there.

The stories of the Pakistani hospitality by the Indian cricket visitors were legendary where ordinary folks did not charge them any money (though some Lahore Hotels were an exception, I hear ).

We can either hate each other or love each other. I don't see a middle way. The first is preferable any day.

 

[third eye]

Third Eye,

The posting from Asim, was precisely to talk about measures going forward.

You still look stuck, and I am not sure if you got the gist of what he said.

His points may not be as important, as the crux of that post. So nitpicking, and running another finger pointing fest as if India has been all right and cool always, is kind of a silly stand.

It is not my business to tell you this, but I am not feeling proud in reading usual blame game going on in a beautiful post like this, which precisely talks about moving ON.

There is no one who'd like to move on more than I.

However, there is no point in simply wanting to move on if there is no road ahead. Without belittling the intent of this thread, I would like to bring out that there is no way we can move on if we don't either accept realities or forget the past.

Neither is likley to happen.

We have had a lifetime of good intent..unless there is verifiable action on the ground, nothing shall happen. Its not a time for ideas ( we have had enough of them), what can we do to translate them into something worthwhile is relevant.

 

[fatman17]

Asim,

I appreciate this sensible post.

However, the maj issue for Indians is that :

1. No elected leader is or can ever be in control in Pak.

2. Continous double speak & U Turns by all - Dictators or elected Presidents leaves us wondering / waiting for a rebuttal that will inevitably follow non aggressive statements made.

3. Instead of interacting with the Pak Pres / PM , it may be better to interact directly with the ISI, after all they ALWAYS have the final say in everything so why waste time & raise hopes by talking with elected reps.

4. In Pakistan, the nation does not have an army, the army has a nation. The very existence & survial of such & orgnisation hinges on a fear psychosis that is created within Pak with rgds to India. No one dares to Q the Pak army , neither is there any transparency in its actions / expenses.

5. There are so many wheels within wheels in Pak that no one can have any faith in anything that happens or is said.

6. There would surely be sane voices, but the hawks have the final say.

7. No systematic apparatus in anything except issues related to the ISI which lurks in the shadows like the wives of kings in yester years who sat behind a veil near the king & whispered directions in his ear.. not permitting him to decide for himself .. finally having their way .. always.

8. In ability to accept realities.. Jammu & Kashmir will never change. The voter turnout in the on going elections anounts to a negation to the boycott calls by seperatists. Much that most here would like to have J&K, it will never happen.

9. It is very unsettling to live next to a nearly " failed state" which is endemically unstable , ungovernable & spreads its virus in the region.

10 . There are no superiority complexes..just as hindus have lived beside muslims for centuries so should muslims. It has to be a 2 way traffic.

11. The ppl of Pak may not be fans of LeT etc, but are responsible for their spawning.

move onwards man! this is what Asim is saying. 99% pakistanis are not the monsters the indian media is trying to portray!

the islamist parties were resoundingly beaten in the last pak elections! what does that tell you about the feelings of the pakistanis!