India may not admit it but its new deal with the US can change the balance of power in Asia

[Chinese-Dragon]

Hmm.Interesting.Just as in 1971 , when your iron brother was being dismembered & the Soviets signed a 20 year friendship treaty with India - moving their troops to the disputed Sino Soviet Russia border , what was your reaction ? You soiled your already dirty pants in the midst of the cultural revolution & watched as the nation of Bangladesh was born.

Why didn't you come to the assistance to your sweeter than honey , taller than mountains , rarer than air, deeper than oceans , fragrant as flatulence ( irrespective of whether you dined on pork or beef ) hotter than sun, colder than liquid nitrogen , faster than lightning - iron brother pakistan , then ?

Because China and Pakistan weren't that close back then. In fact Ayub Khan offered to help India against China before the 1962 war. Back then, Pakistan was firmly in the anti-communist camp led by the USA.

But now India has sold their sovereignty to the USA instead. Pakistan is getting smart and breaking away from Western dominance while India is bowing before it.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

Because China and Pakistan weren't that close back then. In fact Ayub Khan offered to help India against China before the 1962 war. Back then, Pakistan was firmly in the anti-communist camp led by the USA.

But now India has sold their sovereignty to the USA instead. Pakistan is getting smart and breaking away from Western dominance while India is bowing before it.

If memory serves me right , history was being made .Pakistan had facilitated the US China r'approachement hosting Kissinger & having him flown to Beijing to meet Mao / Zhou En Lai.

And you claim Pakistan wasn't close enough to Beijing .Mind classifying that relationship back then in your flowery language - it was high , but not as high high as mountain , it was deep as in deep as the SCS not the Marianna Trench in the Pacific .......... ( you can do the rest of the honours )

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

If memory serves me right , history was being made .Pakistan had facilitated the US China r'approachement hosting Kissinger & having him flown to Beijing to meet Mao / Zhou En Lai.

And you claim Pakistan wasn't close enough to Beijing .Mind classifying that relationship back then in your flowery language - it was high , but not as high high as mountain , it was deep as in deep as the SCS not the Marianna Trench in the Pacific .......... ( you can do the rest of the honours )

If only they had sided with China during the 1962 war, they could have had a mutual defence treaty with us.

But instead Ayub Khan chose to side with India. And the backstabbing India paid them back for it in 1971.

But it was a lesson learned for them. Now they will never forgive India, not in a million years.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

You're not good at this are you ? You were busy pointing out how the US is a great backstabber & yet when I hold up a mirror to your face , you avoid the reflection. You side step the question.You blame your iron brother for his miseries instead of commiserating with him leave aside coming to his aid. How different then are you from the US?

As a TTA , instead of expending your valuable time guiding newbies here & setting an example for them to follow , you troll around .And when you're faced with the truth , you do what most bullies do.you waffle.you weasel it out.


While we're still on the topic , can you tell me in all of the 2000 years of Sino Indian interactions for all that China accomplished in the arts , crafts, trade , philosophy & religion ( & they are mighty fine accomplishments , mind you ) why didn't a single confucian scholar or even a Dao scholar never set foot in India to preach their philosophy? Why is it that Indian Buddhist monks descended in China to propagate Buddhism ? Why is it that you only sent student monks to learn at Nalanda , Naubahar & Takshahsila? & if you had nothing to teach us & we, nothing to learn from you in all these 2000+ years of interactions , what makes you think that you have something to teach us now ? Or that we have something to learn from you ?

Back in the day , when you hosted the Soccer World Cup & later the Olympics , the western media was awash with stories ridiculing the Chinese - from pointing out holes in the ground in a cabin passing off as lavatories to first time Chinese flyers who'd summon the stewardess to slide the windows of the plane they were seated in , mid air , as the air conditioning in the plane was not up to scratch ( poorly maintained or Chinese built plane - the details escape me ) .

Yet , sitting here in India , we recognised these as insecure behaviour on the part of the west trying to put down a fellow third world nation which rose through a 100 years of humiliation & plenty of self inflicted wounds in search of its former glory. We basked in reflected glory arguing if the Chinese could do it , so could we.maybe not in the short span of time that the Chinese achieved it in.But we'd be there .

Now , instead of being a beacon to these very nations , you emulate the behaviour of the west .All this barely a decade after those events & where the advances you've made in various fields are not more than a decade or a decade & a half ahead of us .

What should one put down this sort of behaviour to? Immaturity , hubris , arrogance or insecurity ? Or a little bit of everything ?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

You're not good at this are you ? You were busy pointing out how the US is a great backstabber & yet when I hold up a mirror to your face , you avoid the reflection. You side step the question.You blame your iron brother for his miseries instead of commiserating with him leave aside coming to his aid. How different then are you from the US?

As a TTA , instead of expending your valuable time guiding newbies here & setting an example for them to follow , you troll around .And when you're faced with the truth , you do what most bullies do.you waffle.you weasel it out.


While we're still on the topic , can you tell me in all of the 2000 years of Sino Indian interactions for all that China accomplished in the arts , crafts, trade , philosophy & religion ( & they are mighty fine accomplishments , mind you ) why didn't a single confucian scholar or even a Dao scholar never set foot in India to preach their philosophy? Why is it that Indian Buddhist monks descended in China to propagate Buddhism ? Why is it that you only sent student monks to learn at Nalanda , Naubahar & Takshahsila? & if you had nothing to teach us & we, nothing to learn from you in all these 2000+ years of interactions , what makes you think that you have something to teach us now ? Or that we have something to learn from you ?

Back in the day , when you hosted the Soccer World Cup & later the Olympics , the western media was awash with stories ridiculing the Chinese - from pointing out holes in the ground in a cabin passing off as lavatories to first time Chinese flyers who'd summon the stewardess to slide the windows of the plane they were seated in , mid air , as the air conditioning in the plane was not up to scratch ( poorly maintained or Chinese built plane - the details escape me ) .

Yet , sitting here in India , we recognised these as insecure behaviour on the part of the west trying to put down a fellow third world nation which rose through a 100 years of humiliation & plenty of self inflicted wounds in search of its former glory. We basked in reflected glory arguing if the Chinese could do it , so could we.maybe not in the short span of time that the Chinese achieved it in.But we'd be there .

Now , instead of being a beacon to these very nations , you emulate the behaviour of the west .All this barely a decade after those events & where the advances you've made in various fields are not more than a decade or a decade & a half ahead of us .

What should one put down this sort of behaviour to? Immaturity , hubris , arrogance or insecurity ? Or a little bit of everything ?

LOL, what does any of that have to do with India selling their sovereignty to the US military by signing the LEMOA?

Did we force you to do that? I can understand nations selling their sovereignty if they are facing an immediate existential threat, but India was not. China was focused elsewhere, specifically on the Pacific and the South China Sea. There was no threat of war on the Sino-Indian border at all.

India sold their sovereignty in peacetime with no existential threat at all.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

LOL, what does any of that have to do with India selling their sovereignty to the US military by signing the LEMOA?

Did we force you to do that? I can understand nations selling their sovereignty if they are facing an immediate existential threat, but India was not. China was focused elsewhere, specifically on the Pacific and the South China Sea. There was no threat of war on the Sino-Indian border at all.

India sold their sovereignty in peacetime with no existential threat at all.

Why are you insecure about the LEMOA or any other treaty that India signs with the US or any other country ?

China is responsible for Pakistan's entire nuclear arsenal & delivery systems .As well as that of North Korea too. I haven't seen any Indian play the same tune as a broken record does ( like you & your country men do) on every single thread concerning Indo Pak , Indo China or Indo US relations .

Your behaviour certainly doesn't behove that of a great power .It's more similar to the western tropes of the Chinese being a cowardly nation full of crafty conniving cunning people who will never strike one on his chest but in his back .

There is nothing of the self confidence or swagger or even braggadacio of a great power (you ought to learn something from your iron brother here in these departments) in the way your nation conducts itself or you yourself .

But your nation seems to be riddled with self doubts .Perhaps the scars of those hundred years of humiliation & those self inflicted wounds haven't healed thoroughly enough.Maybe in a few more generations , you'd confidently say - bring it on.But yours will continue to whine about what your opponents like India do.

But being from a nation which is your spiritual guru - let me paraphrase a Fable from the Panchatantra to you .

A rishi after years of meditation , acquiring great yogic powers went to meet his wife who bemoaned the fact that they were childless .
The rishi chances upon a mouse & turned her into a bonny lass .In due course she came of the age to be married .The Rishi took her to be married to the sun , the moon , the highest mountain , the most handsome man & the richest king all of whom his adopted daughter refused as being too hot , too cold , too still , too vain & too greedy accumulating a fortune respectively .
Which made the exasperated Rishi ask her whom did she want to marry then,??!! The daughter happened to see a mouse frolicking about with joy & pointing her finger at the mouse , she asked her father - the rishi to change her into a mouse so that she could live the rest of her life with joy with that mouse.

Moral being - irrespective of the station we achieve in life we can't change out innermost self .

This parable is not for you .Both you & me know that .This is for those who wonder why does your country & by extension you & your countrymen in this forum behave the way they do with respect to India.

 

[Nilgiri]

So called "TTA" cant even read the basic premise of the LEMOA.

It has become another bogeyman in his arsenal of trolling.

Basic fact: Both sides need advance permission of the other for use of a base logistically under LEMOA.

Apparently this "TTA" has less mental acumen than that of a small child to read basic facts.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Why are you insecure about the LEMOA or any other treaty that India signs with the US or any other country ?

China is responsible for Pakistan's entire nuclear arsenal & delivery systems .As well as that of North Korea too. I haven't seen any Indian play the same tune as a broken record does ( like you & your country men do) on every single thread concerning Indo Pak , Indo China or Indo US relations .

Your behaviour certainly doesn't behove that of a great power .It's more similar to the western tropes of the Chinese being a cowardly nation full of crafty conniving cunning people who will never strike one on his chest but in his back .

There is nothing of the self confidence or swagger or even braggadacio of a great power (you ought to learn something from your iron brother here in these departments) in the way your nation conducts itself or you yourself .

But your nation seems to be riddled with self doubts .Perhaps the scars of those hundred years of humiliation & those self inflicted wounds haven't healed thoroughly enough.Maybe in a few more generations , you'd confidently say - bring it on.But yours will continue to whine about what your opponents like India do.

But being from a nation which is your spiritual guru - let me paraphrase a Fable from the Panchatantra to you .

A rishi after years of meditation , acquiring great yogic powers went to meet his wife who bemoaned the fact that they were childless .
The rishi chances upon a mouse & turned her into a bonny lass .In due course she came of the age to be married .The Rishi took her to be married to the sun , the moon , the highest mountain , the most handsome man & the richest king all of whom his adopted daughter refused as being too hot , too cold , too still , too vain & too greedy accumulating a fortune respectively .
Which made the exasperated Rishi ask her whom did she want to marry then,??!! The daughter happened to see a mouse frolicking about with joy & pointing her finger at the mouse , she asked her father - the rishi to change her into a mouse so that she could live the rest of her life with joy with that mouse.

Moral being - irrespective of the station we achieve in life we can't change out innermost self .

This parable is not for you .Both you & me know that .This is for those who wonder why does your country & by extension you & your countrymen in this forum behave the way they do with respect to India.

Who is complaining? Why would Chinese and Pakistanis complain when India willingly chose to surrender their own sovereignty to America?

We are just thankful that our leaders are not such traitors to sign something like the LEMOA.

Basic fact: Both sides need advance permission of the other for use of a base logistically under LEMOA.

And if the US military chooses not to leave Indian soil, India can't do a damn thing about it. Not a single Indian weapon system can reach American soil, they can pound you into the stone age and you couldn't even scratch them in return.

All you can count on now is the "good will" of Westerners to not do that. That is your definition of sovereignty.

 

[Nilgiri]

And if the US military chooses not to leave Indian soil, India can't do a damn thing about it. Not a single Indian weapon system can reach American soil, they can pound you into the stone age and you couldn't even scratch them in return.

It has already been established and proven you have not read the LEMOA (or you are just extremely ignorant) ....so you talking about it in any detail is just comical.

It is not a basing agreement at all. If you don't know the difference between permanent basing and transitory logistical use (port calls)...then I am afraid we have hit a brick wall in communication here.

Though it seems to be an excellent deal in one particular context: the heartburn generated among the butthurt CPC "TTAs" like you....desperately flailing around with all sorts of definitions and judgements of what the LEMOA is without actually having read the damn thing. "Made in China" quality for all to see basically.....ignorance mixed with butthurt anger/desperation. Good comedy and I hope you spend more time on this thread crying and braying.

Thanks for the negative rating btw, it generates more interest in the post's content given many people are interested to know where and who I got them from given they are just a few. Personal butthurt backfiring for information promotion and spread is a good thing.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

It has already been established and proven you have not read the LEMOA (or you are just extremely ignorant) ....so you talking about it in any detail is just comical.

It is not a basing agreement at all. If you don't know the difference between permanent basing and transitory logistical use (port calls)...then I am afraid we have hit a brick wall in communication here.

Though it seems to be an excellent deal in one particular context: the heartburn generated among the butthurt chicom "TTAs" like you....desperately flailing around with all sorts of definitions and judgements of what the LEMOA is without actually having read the damn thing. "Made in China" quality for all to see basically.....ignorance mixed with butthurt anger/desperation. Good comedy and I hope you spend more time on this thread crying and braying.

Thanks for the negative rating btw, it generates more interest in the post's content given many people are interested to know where and who I got them from given they are just a few. Personal butthurt backfiring for information promotion and spread is a good thing.

You are very welcome.

And you are the one flailing about, trying to prove why India has not sold its sovereignty. Though you know it has, if China pulled the same stunt you would definitely agree.

Allowing the US military to use your bases is basically the same thing as having US military bases on your soil. The only difference is that logistics agreements more cost efficient for America, since the vassal country has to pay for all the maintenence and upkeep of those bases.

You can spin it all you want, the US military can now use Indian military bases on Indian soil.

And you have no capability to make them leave. You can only ask and beg and hope that the Western military forces will leave, that is your definition of sovereignty.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

Who is complaining? Why would Chinese and Pakistanis complain when India willing chose to surrender their own sovereignty to America?

We are just thankful that our leaders are not such traitors to sign something like the LEMOA.

No .your leaders are true nationalists .From L Bo Xilai to Xi Jinpeng .Here is a good example of your patriotic leadership.While it doesn't implicate Xi Jinping , it certainly has a lot to say about his immediate extended family .Since Bloomberg is banned in PRC , I can fetch other articles too.Not for you .But about your enlightened purer than white leadership for the benefit of the rest of your country cousins who post in this forum.Do go through the full article -

Xi Jinping Millionaire Relations Reveal Fortunes of Elite

Bloomberg News
June 29, 2012 — 1:02 PM IST
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Xi Jinping, vice president of China, visits the China Shipping terminal at the Port of Los Angeles in Los Angeles, California, U.S., on Thursday, Feb. 16, 2012. Source: Bloomberg

Xi Jinping, the man in line to be China’s next president, warned officials on a 2004 anti-graft conference call: “Rein in your spouses, children, relatives, friends and staff, and vow not to use power for personal gain.”

As Xi climbed the Communist Party ranks, his extended family expanded their business interests to include minerals, real estate and mobile-phone equipment, according to public documents compiled by Bloomberg.

Those interests include investments in companies with total assets of $376 million; an 18 percent indirect stake in a rare-earths company with $1.73 billion in assets; and a $20.2 million holding in a publicly traded technology company. The figures don’t account for liabilities and thus don’t reflect the family’s net worth.

And if the US military chooses not to leave Indian soil, India can't do a damn thing about it. Not a single Indian weapon system can reach American soil, they can pound you into the stone age and you couldn't even scratch them in return.

All you can count on now is the "good will" of Westerners to not do that. That is your definition of sovereignty.

I think you're confusing India for your iron brother or perhaps ROC.

 

[Nilgiri]

You are very welcome.

And you are the one flailing about, trying to prove why India has not sold its sovereignty. Though you know it has, if China pulled the same stunt you would definitely agree.

Allowing the US military to use your bases is basically the same thing as having US military bases on your soil. The only difference is that logistics agreements more cost efficient for America, since the vassal country has to pay for all the maintenence and upkeep of those bases.

You can spin it all you want, the US military can now use Indian military bases on Indian soil.

And you have no capability to make them leave. You can only ask and beg and hope that the Western military forces will leave, that is your definition of sovereignty.

Anyone thats actually interested in it, can read the LEMOA themselves (something you clearly have not done) and read the specific permission and transitory clauses....rather than jumping to biased butthurt conclusions like you clearly have (without even reading the text of the agreement which goes to show how much of a "TTA" you really are).

Now you can cha ching as many 5 cent CPC troll posts as you want on this thread. I got better use for my time.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @anant_s check this "TTA" out lol

He thinks "Allowing the US military to use your bases is basically the same thing as having US military bases on your soil." completely ignoring the word permission or what transitory logistics are.

But then again this is the guy that stringently claims Buddha is Nepali and not "Indian"....without even reading where the word Nepal comes from and what it means

Seems to have a reading problem in general I suppose.

 

[Indiran Chandiran]

Bandar ke haath mein talwaar De diya @Nilgiri

Anyone thats actually interested in it, can read the LEMOA themselves (something you clearly have not done) and read the specific permission and transitory clauses....rather than jumping to biased butthurt conclusions like you clearly have (without even reading the text of the agreement which goes to show how much of a "TTA" you really are).

Now you can cha ching as many 5 cent CPC troll posts as you want on this thread. I got better use for my time.

@Abingdonboy @MilSpec @PARIKRAMA @anant_s check this "TTA" out lol

He thinks "Allowing the US military to use your bases is basically the same thing as having US military bases on your soil." completely ignoring the word permission or what transitory logistics are.

But then again this is the guy that stringently claims Buddha is Nepali and not "Indian"....without even reading where the word Nepal comes from and what it means

Seems to have a reading problem in general I suppose.

@Chinese-Dragon is basically a good child .He requires an Indian Guru to teach him Dhyan = Chan = Zen .It's help him gain greater self control.Not his fault.Basically Confucian / Dao philosophy lacks the power to train the mind .That's the reason why they lapped up Buddhism .To fill in the lacunae in their spiritual quest for inner peace.Do you want me to guide you to a few good mediation centres ? To calm those frayed nerves of yours @Chinese-Dragon .You'd lose your fear or at least come to terms with LEMOA.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

He thinks "Allowing the US military to use your bases is basically the same thing as having US military bases on your soil." completely ignoring the word permission or what transitory logistics are.

But then again this is the guy that stringently claims Buddha is Nepali and not "Indian"....without even reading where the word Nepal comes from and what it means

Both of those things are correct.

India has sold their sovereignty to the US military by signing the LEMOA. India has no capability to make them leave if they don't want to, you have to rely on the good will of these Western militaries.

And yes, Buddha was from what is now modern-day Nepal, long before India was created by the Western colonialists (British India). And Nepal was never even a part of British India, let alone the Republic of India.

 

[American Pakistani]

We need to have a similar agreement with Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Trust me Pakistan will welcome China with open arms in Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean.

China should send it's aircraft carrier fleet in the region. You can always use Gwadar as nearest land.