India lower caste still removing human waste

[Sahasranama]

Wrong. As of today only $22,975 of equity in home under the federal exemptions. This too varies from state to state whether the state will allow a person to avail of federal exemptions or restrict him to state exemption. The states which allow for unlimited exemptions under state laws have been curbed by Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which limits the scope of filing for Chapter 7 bankruptcy claims and instead pushes them towards filing chapter 13 where in they are made to payback a certain portion of the debt from their equity or future income over a period of 5 years.

The new bankruptcy law and you - Oct. 17, 2005

Your OWN LINK says the new limit on homestead exemption is $125,000 in 2005 which is to be adjusted periodically (against inflation, one assumes). It is which is $155,675 as of 2014 (which is what I claimed in the first place). There is also a caveat which says "There is an exception if the property is “reasonably necessary for the support of the debtor and any dependent of the debtor.”

Your own link proves me right. Did you even read it ?

It is you who are being dishonest. They do not want immigrants. Europe especially is employing all sorts of curbs to restrict immigration. We are going towards the age of robots which will make for lesser and lesser employment opportunities and they do not want people flooding in. Their social security system is entirely outside the scope of our argument. By employing 10,000 scientists from India they are not going to make a difference to their social security system even by a jot. That third world talents are being employed by the West is because their own are very lazy to pick up the slack. So much for the HDI.

There is no evidence showing the west is lazy and Indians are not.

You are speculating while I am giving facts. This line of reasoning has reached its end.

Yes the argument started by me arguing that what keeps the Western banks solvent is the unlimited QE which made you bring in how it is perfectly reasonable for India too which made me point out the inflation it led too. Yes Unlimited QE.

You said "unreasonable QE" which has now become "unlimited QE" in the midst of the debate. Is that dishonesty ?

US is the ONLY country in the world who can print $ to keep up with demand. This is because the $ is the de-facto global currency of trade which is ensured by US military might. Just because you don't like it, its not going to change nor does it penalize the Americans for being unreasonable. The world is not a fair place. However this has nothing to do with Bank Leverage in Europe or India, which was the point being discussed to realize cheaper funds.

India has more than 50% of its population engaged in farming. How many deaths due to pesticides take place? Millions? So blame the poor farming practices or poor agricultural inputs from the state, not the lack of loans at cheap rates. Especially when the state has been waiving off loans like nobody's business.

There is dependency between the rising cost of agriculture and farmer loans.

In case of a bankruptcy the bank does lose money too. Only in India they are more honest and do not lend money for doubtful enterprise and secure the depositers wealth from scams after scams as happens in the West. Which is why Indian banks still pay 8% interest to its depositers and rewards savings unlike the Western banks which punishes savers and gives them no returns and pushes them towards an entirely rigged stock market.

LOL...ever heard of Sharada Scam ? How about Sahara (35,000 crores) ? How about PACL which has been asked to give back 50,000 crores to investors (10 Billion $)

On one hand you continue to insist India has the largest number of capitalists and entrepreneurs and OTOH you want govt. to provide high interest rates to depositors ...... sounds like eating the cake and wanting it too. You cannot have it both ways.

Either your society is capitalistic and has a dynamic free market and entrepreneurial sprit which means cheap credit needs to be given, or you have a risk averse society that puts money in banks and expect high returns for doing nothing and expect the few entrepreneurs to multiply their cash. Pick a side.

How is that even related to the topic of women empowerment which was supposed to raise the rate of divorce in this country?

The need and relevance of Gender specific law is not related to women empowerment ?

 

[Indrani]

Your OWN LINK says the new limit on homestead exemption is $125,000 in 2005 which is to be adjusted periodically (against inflation, one assumes). It is which is $155,675 as of 2014 (which is what I claimed in the first place). There is also a caveat which says "There is an exception if the property is “reasonably necessary for the support of the debtor and any dependent of the debtor.”
Your own link proves me right. Did you even read it ?

You should learn to read again. There are clear sentences written in literally all the links provided by me. It says federal homestead exemption amount is currently $22,975 where the state allows access to federal law. It is only those states where in there is unlimited exemption limit (eg. Florida) that the federal cap of $155,675 plugs in to protect forum shopping, ie, people moving in from states where there is limited exemption. Even in the cases of these few states the push is towards sending the person towards filing Chapter 13 rather than Chapter 7 via the Bankruptcy abuse prevention law.

How the Homestead Exemption Works
You must determine if the homestead exemption is large enough to protect the equity in your home. The equity in your home is the difference between your home's value (use current market value) and what you owe to the mortgage holder and all other lienholders. That is, if you were to sell your home, after you paid off the mortgage and lienholders, and subtracted the costs of sale and trustee's commission, would there be anything left over?

If the answer is yes, then the trustee is likely to sell your home and use the proceeds to pay your unsecured creditors. However, the trustee will give you the amount of equity that is covered by your homestead exemption.

If the answer is no, then the trustee will not sell your home.

If you are behind in your mortgage payments and cannot catch up quickly, even if your equity is protected, you are likely to lose your home through foreclosure. Because you can pay off a mortgage arrearage in Chapter 13 bankruptcy, you may be able to save your home by filing for Chapter 13 instead. Learn more about how Chapter 13 Bankruptcy Can Save a Home from Foreclosure.

There is no evidence showing the west is lazy and Indians are not.
You are speculating while I am giving facts. This line of reasoning has reached its end.

The very fact that Indians are landing jobs which should have in effect gone to a white local says that there is a deficiency of skilled employees there which proves my point rather than your. You need to catch up with reasoning.

You said "unreasonable QE" which has now become "unlimited QE" in the midst of the debate. Is that dishonesty ?
US is the ONLY country in the world who can print $ to keep up with demand. This is because the $ is the de-facto global currency of trade which is ensured by US military might. Just because you don't like it, its not going to change nor does it penalize the Americans for being unreasonable. The world is not a fair place. However this has nothing to do with Bank Leverage in Europe or India, which was the point being discussed to realize cheaper funds.

Unlimited QE is what I said which if you were to look at it is also unreasonable QE. As the economy grows there generally is monetary expansion which necessitates limited QE which is followed in normal times which is very different from the unlimited QE which was followed by US Feds, European Central Bank, as well as UPA govt in India. Got it?

Oh whether the dollar survives as the global reserve currency or not is a matter of speculation and a topic of different discussion altogether.

Who do you thinks buys the crap treasury bills of Europe if not USA and the treasury bills of USA if not Europe. India sadly cannot afford this and nor should it try to be part of the parasitical endeavor.

There is dependency between the rising cost of agriculture and farmer loans.

There is a dependency between everything. Welcome to the interconnected web of life.

LOL...ever heard of Sharada Scam ? How about Sahara (35,000 crores) ? How about PACL which has been asked to give back 50,000 crores to investors (10 Billion $)
On one hand you continue to insist India has the largest number of capitalists and entrepreneurs and OTOH you want govt. to provide high interest rates to depositors ...... sounds like eating the cake and wanting it too. You cannot have it both ways.
Either your society is capitalistic and has a dynamic free market and entrepreneurial sprit which means cheap credit needs to be given, or you have a risk averse society that puts money in banks and expect high returns for doing nothing and expect the few entrepreneurs to multiply their cash. Pick a side.

Was Sharada scam a bank scam? Or was it a chit fund scam? We are talking about normal banking here. Not chit funds and derivatives and what not.

India has the largest number of capitalists is a fact. India also has a healthy saving economy where its people manage to save 35% of its yearly GDP because of the good returns they get for their savings. This is the money they plow back into the market for growth. There is no contradiction here. It is a honest society and a self-reliant society. Not a ponzi scheme society like the Western societies. On the other hand what you are looking for is a scam-fed society which will fund all hare-brained schemes in the name of innovation. An artificial society with an artificial monetary expansion in the name of capitalism. It does not mean cheap credit. Why call yourself a risk taker if you are looking for "no-risk cheap credit." Where is the entrepreneurship in it when you want all the safety valves built in for your risks. That is making a mockery of the word risk.

The need and relevance of Gender specific law is not related to women empowerment ?

Hahaha. Your last statement had you lament yourself as a champion of gender neutral law and not gender specific law. Women empowerment had nothing to do with it. Handle your contradictions yourself.

 

[dravidianhero]

It is disgusting;I never heard of such thing.By the way don't people who have no toilets at home go out to open places to relieve themselves?how do these dry toilets look like?How often should they be cleaned?I think this practice is not prevalent in south India and is north specific.

 

[Sahasranama]

You should learn to read again. There are clear sentences written in literally all the links provided by me. It says federal homestead exemption amount is currently $22,975 where the state allows access to federal law. It is only those states where in there is unlimited exemption limit (eg. Florida) that the federal cap of $155,675 plugs in to protect forum shopping, ie, people moving in from states where there is limited exemption. Even in the cases of these few states the push is towards sending the person towards filing Chapter 13 rather than Chapter 7 via the Bankruptcy abuse prevention law.

How the Homestead Exemption Works
You must determine if the homestead exemption is large enough to protect the equity in your home. The equity in your home is the difference between your home's value (use current market value) and what you owe to the mortgage holder and all other lienholders. That is, if you were to sell your home, after you paid off the mortgage and lienholders, and subtracted the costs of sale and trustee's commission, would there be anything left over?

If the answer is yes, then the trustee is likely to sell your home and use the proceeds to pay your unsecured creditors. However, the trustee will give you the amount of equity that is covered by your homestead exemption.

If the answer is no, then the trustee will not sell your home.

If you are behind in your mortgage payments and cannot catch up quickly, even if your equity is protected, you are likely to lose your home through foreclosure. Because you can pay off a mortgage arrearage in Chapter 13 bankruptcy, you may be able to save your home by filing for Chapter 13 instead. Learn more about how Chapter 13 Bankruptcy Can Save a Home from Foreclosure.

Now we have jumped from chapter 7 to 13 ? FYI (2005 amount)

The very fact that Indians are landing jobs which should have in effect gone to a white local says that there is a deficiency of skilled employees there which proves my point rather than your. You need to catch up with reasoning.

I say shortage of people, you say Europeans are dumb. Let us agree to disagree.

Unlimited QE is what I said which if you were to look at it is also unreasonable QE. As the economy grows there generally is monetary expansion which necessitates limited QE which is followed in normal times which is very different from the unlimited QE which was followed by US Feds, European Central Bank, as well as UPA govt in India. Got it?

Oh whether the dollar survives as the global reserve currency or not is a matter of speculation and a topic of different discussion altogether.

Who do you thinks buys the crap treasury bills of Europe if not USA and the treasury bills of USA if not Europe. India sadly cannot afford this and nor should it try to be part of the parasitical endeavor.

I am sorry to say you seem to be opposing just for the heck of arguing with me.

Are you attempting to teach me what QE is ? I am not asking for India to be part of the US federal QE plan, I am demanding the GoI allow the Indian banks to increase its leverage ratio to provide more funds to the economy. That is how China could fund its massive infra projects while we still continue to scratch our heads as how to get FDI from highly leveraged economies rather than ease our own financial markets. You want quick growth ? there is no easy way out. You have to take risks when you are sure about implementing and executing a change.

Was Sharada scam a bank scam? Or was it a chit fund scam? We are talking about normal banking here. Not chit funds and derivatives and what not.

India has the largest number of capitalists is a fact. India also has a healthy saving economy where its people manage to save 35% of its yearly GDP because of the good returns they get for their savings. This is the money they plow back into the market for growth. There is no contradiction here. It is a honest society and a self-reliant society. Not a ponzi scheme society like the Western societies. On the other hand what you are looking for is a scam-fed society which will fund all hare-brained schemes in the name of innovation. An artificial society with an artificial monetary expansion in the name of capitalism. It does not mean cheap credit. Why call yourself a risk taker if you are looking for "no-risk cheap credit." Where is the entrepreneurship in it when you want all the safety valves built in for your risks. That is making a mockery of the word risk.

Sharada happened because it is easier to open a chit fund account rather than a bank account. BTW Sharada was a Ponzi scheme.

An even distribution of Risk works in everyone's favour. That is why Modi is now giving 5000 Rs over draft to new account holers. That is why credit cards all over the world is a great success. There is nothing heroic about taking high risk credit.

Hahaha. Your last statement had you lament yourself as a champion of gender law and not gender specific law. Women empowerment had nothing to do with it. Handle your contradictions yourself.

Need for gender specific laws and laws favouring a specific gender indicate the deficiency in women empowerment. Same goes for reservation. No contradiction as far as I can tell. Maybe I am just dumb.

 

[Indrani]

Now we have jumped from chapter 7 to 13 ? FYI (2005 amount)

No we have not jumped anywhere. Thanks for the chart. It just belabors my point. Chapter 7 is used primarily to discharge credit card loans which is basically un-secured loans. The exemption limit varies from state to state with the State of Alabama giving just as much as $5000 as exemption limit. Where the state allows people to opt for Federal exemptions, then an $22,975 exemption can be made. Some States like Florida and Texas have unlimited exemptions for Chapter 7. In these states if a person from another state with lower exemption limit moves in to take advantage of this exemption to protect his property from bankruptcy, then the Bankruptcy abuse prevention clauses kick in. Hope you are with me so far. Then in these cases in states like Florida and Texas a Federal exemption limit $155,675 comes in. Even otherwise, people are encouraged to move towards Chapter 13 to save their non-exempt properties.

Now while you may believe in tooth fairy and Santa and think that the creditors will be left holding the bag while the debtor goes free, that is not the case.

The bankruptcy filing does not erase debts like alimony, child support, student loan, etc., etc. That you need to keep paying or go to jail.

Now let us look at Chapter 7 actually in Texas, the state with unlimited exemptions.

Texas Chapter 7 bankruptcy information
In a Chapter 7 bankruptcy you wipe out your debts and get a “Fresh Start”. Chapter 7 bankruptcy is a liquidation where the trustee collects all of your assets and sells any assets which are not exempt. (seeTexas Exemptions) The trustee sells the assets and pays you, the debtor, any amount exempted. The net proceeds of the liquidation are then distributed to your creditors with a commission taken by the trustee overseeing the distribution.

Certain debts cannot be discharged in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, such as alimony, child support, fraudulent debts, certain taxes, student loans, and certain items charged. (see Texas Non-Dischargeable Debts) In most Chapter 7 cases, the debtor has large credit card debt and other unsecured bills and very few assets. In the vast majority of cases a Chapter 7 bankruptcy is able to completely eliminate all of these debts.

You may keep certain secured debts such as your car or your furniture or house by reaffirming those debts. To do so, you must sign a voluntary “Reaffirmation Agreement”. If you decide that you want to keep your house or your car or your furniture, and you reaffirm the debt, you cannot bankrupt (or wipe-out) that debt again for eight years. You will still owe that debt and you must continue to pay it just as you were obligated to continue to pay it before you filed bankruptcy. In order to reaffirm the debt, you must also bring it current. In other words, if you are three or four months behind, then you must pay the back payments which are due in order to reaffirm it. You can selectively reaffirm your debts – you can state that you wish to keep the house and the furniture, but that you want the car and the jewelry to go back to the respective Creditors.

Reaffirmation agreements can be set aside during the earlier of 60 days after the agreement is filed with the Court, or upon the Court’s issuance of an Order of Discharge.


That means you have to still pay off the mortgage and the car loans and the creditor retains the right to sell your secured property to recover his loan.


Now tell me in which world would you secure loans for business without collateral other than credit cards. So if your business goes kaput and you are not current with your debt payment, the banks will seize the property and sell it to recover their money unless you keep paying off the debt. You cannot wriggle out of it with a bankruptcy claim.

I am sorry to say you seem to be opposing just for the heck of arguing with me.
Are you attempting to teach me what QE is ? I am not asking for India to be part of the US federal QE plan, I am demanding the GoI allow the Indian banks to increase its leverage ratio to provide more funds to the economy. That is how China could fund its massive infra projects while we still continue to scratch our heads as how to get FDI from highly leveraged economies rather than ease our own financial markets. You want quick growth ? there is no easy way out. You have to take risks when you are sure about implementing and executing a change.

You contested my "unlimited QE claim" and I answered to that. No we cannot go the way of China because we have a far more transparent banking system than China has and we cannot have slave labor pool the way China did.

Sharada happened because it is easier to open a chit fund account rather than a bank account. BTW Sharada was a Ponzi scheme.
An even distribution of Risk works in everyone's favour. That is why Modi is now giving 5000 Rs over draft to new account holers. That is why credit cards all over the world is a great success. There is nothing heroic about taking high risk credit.

See it gets tiring arguing with you because you bring in all irrelevant stuff. I am talking about banking system and you talk of chit funds. Where is the co-relation? No it is not hard to open a bank account or a post office account.

Giving microcredit to poor is vastly different than the kind of risk you were talking about. The poor generally pay back for a good measure so that they can continue to have access to that money. So the return rate is quite good.

Credit cards are a success because they suck the blood out of the payers. To maintain a high credit score, people continue paying over their nose in excess of 34% per annum. Now that is loan sharking. Also count in the late fees and all other myriad fees.

Need for gender specific laws and laws favouring a specific gender indicate the deficiency in women empowerment. Same goes for reservation. No contradiction as far as I can tell. Maybe I am just dumb

No it does not indicate a deficiency in women empowerment rather it indicates the corrective measures taken to redress the deficiency. Which having been taken is assumed to have redressed that deficiency and so such deficiency no longer exists. If laws are indicative of deficiency then perhaps we should do away with laws going by your reasoning.

That India has gone overboard with gender specific law has to do with hyperfeminism and the dumb head NGOs who were involved in making up those laws and nothing else.

 

[Sahasranama]

No we have not jumped anywhere. Thanks for the chart. It just belabors my point. Chapter 7 is used primarily to discharge credit card loans which is basically un-secured loans. The exemption limit varies from state to state with the State of Alabama giving just as much as $5000 as exemption limit. Where the state allows people to opt for Federal exemptions, then an $22,975 exemption can be made. Some States like Florida and Texas have unlimited exemptions for Chapter 7. In these states if a person from another state with lower exemption limit moves in to take advantage of this exemption to protect his property from bankruptcy, then the Bankruptcy abuse prevention clauses kick in. Hope you are with me so far. Then in these cases in states like Florida and Texas a Federal exemption limit $155,675 comes in. Even otherwise, people are encouraged to move towards Chapter 13 to save their non-exempt properties.

Now while you may believe in tooth fairy and Santa and think that the creditors will be left holding the bag while the debtor goes free, that is not the case.

The bankruptcy filing does not erase debts like alimony, child support, student loan, etc., etc. That you need to keep paying or go to jail.

Now let us look at Chapter 7 actually in Texas, the state with unlimited exemptions.

Texas Chapter 7 bankruptcy information
In a Chapter 7 bankruptcy you wipe out your debts and get a “Fresh Start”. Chapter 7 bankruptcy is a liquidation where the trustee collects all of your assets and sells any assets which are not exempt. (seeTexas Exemptions) The trustee sells the assets and pays you, the debtor, any amount exempted. The net proceeds of the liquidation are then distributed to your creditors with a commission taken by the trustee overseeing the distribution.

Certain debts cannot be discharged in a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, such as alimony, child support, fraudulent debts, certain taxes, student loans, and certain items charged. (see Texas Non-Dischargeable Debts) In most Chapter 7 cases, the debtor has large credit card debt and other unsecured bills and very few assets. In the vast majority of cases a Chapter 7 bankruptcy is able to completely eliminate all of these debts.

You may keep certain secured debts such as your car or your furniture or house by reaffirming those debts. To do so, you must sign a voluntary “Reaffirmation Agreement”. If you decide that you want to keep your house or your car or your furniture, and you reaffirm the debt, you cannot bankrupt (or wipe-out) that debt again for eight years. You will still owe that debt and you must continue to pay it just as you were obligated to continue to pay it before you filed bankruptcy. In order to reaffirm the debt, you must also bring it current. In other words, if you are three or four months behind, then you must pay the back payments which are due in order to reaffirm it. You can selectively reaffirm your debts – you can state that you wish to keep the house and the furniture, but that you want the car and the jewelry to go back to the respective Creditors.

Reaffirmation agreements can be set aside during the earlier of 60 days after the agreement is filed with the Court, or upon the Court’s issuance of an Order of Discharge.

That means you have to still pay off the mortgage and the car loans and the creditor retains the right to sell your secured property to recover his loan.

Your are flogging a dead horse. You are only reconfirming that the house is exempt from the debtors. Only IF there is a home loan the debtor has to keep paying that EMI. Is that so radical ?

Now tell me in which world would you secure loans for business without collateral other than credit cards. So if your business goes kaput and you are not current with your debt payment, the banks will seize the property and sell it to recover their money unless you keep paying off the debt. You cannot wriggle out of it with a bankruptcy claim.

LOL....its called a Business Loan, where your business becomes the collateral. If that collateral shrinks in value then no new collateral is added.

Then there is something called an Overdraft. which is again standard practice of providing running capital for businesses.

Then there is priority state funding for projects like solar plants etc. which is issued without a collateral.

You contested my "unlimited QE claim" and I answered to that. No we cannot go the way of China because we have a far more transparent banking system than China has and we cannot have slave labor pool the way China did.

And you accuse me to bring in unrelated topics

See it gets tiring arguing with you because you bring in all irrelevant stuff. I am talking about banking system and yo talk of chit funds. Where is the co-relation? No it is not hard to open a bank account or a post office account.

Giving microcredit to poor is vastly different than the kind of risk you were talking about. The poor generally pay back for a good measure so that they can continue to have access to that money. So the return rate is quite good.

Credit cards are a success because they suck the blood out of the payers. To maintain a high credit score, people continue paying over their nose in excess of 34% per annum. Now that is loan sharking. Also count in the late fees and all other myriad fees.

Giving micro-credit to 1 billion people is certainly more risky than providing large amounts to a stable organization. Which is why banks do not go for micro credits in the first place. Its cost to benefit ratio is the smallest. A strong credit score also makes your eligible for larger credit line in the future. That is how risk is distributed.

No it does not indicate a deficiency in women empowerment rather it indicates the corrective measures taken to redress the deficiency. Which having been taken is assumed to have redressed that deficiency and so such deficiency no longer exists. If laws are indicative of deficiency then perhaps we should do away with laws going by your reasoning.

That India has gone overboard with gender specific law has to do with hyperfeminism and the dumb head NGOs who were involved in making up those laws and nothing else.

Call it whatever you want, the fact remains that affirmative action works.


Now I have observed that we have reached the end of the line and since no new facts are forth coming and we are only trading opinions let us stop this and not go further. You can have the last word if you wish

 

[Indrani]

Your are flogging a dead horse. You are only reconfirming that the house is exempt from the debtors. Only IF there is a home loan the debtor has to keep paying that EMI. Is that so radical ?

Unsecured loans carry the same risk everywhere in the world. A credit card company cannot confiscate property in India too. So too the millions of defaults from various unsecured loan that happen everyday. Only we do not term it as bankruptcy. The house and other properties are not exempt from debtors when it has been collateralized which is how generally people raise funds for business ventures from banks. I hope your argument of bankruptcy was not just limited to defrauding the credit card companies and friends and family from whom one has borrowed but on a much boarder level extended to all sort of business losses.

LOL....its called a Business Loan, where your business becomes the collateral. If that collateral shrinks in value then no new collateral is added.
Then there is something called an Overdraft. which is again standard practice of providing running capital for businesses.
Then there is priority state funding for projects like solar plants etc. which is issued without a collateral.

Of course in those cases banks take the risk of loses too. In case of default of any unsecured loan the banks cannot confiscate any personal property from the individual even in India for the simple matter that it is not enforceable, except for initiating a case of fraud in case they suspect any wrongdoing on part of the debtor.

And you accuse me to bring in unrelated topics

Wow. Both those statements were merely in reply to your accusations and examples given. Both introduced by yourself.

Giving micro-credit to 1 billion people is certainly more risky than providing large amounts to a stable organization. Which is why banks do not go for micro credits in the first place. Its cost to benefit ratio is the smallest. A strong credit score also makes your eligible for larger credit line in the future. That is how risk is distributed

You are wrong again. As you stated elsewhere people in general are honest and to keep availing the benefit they will generally repay the amount which is neither too big nor too expensive to return. 1 billion people do not need the overdraft of Rs. 5000. The aim was to target those who do not have a bank account. So they are targeting 10 crores, that is 100 million. Again, microfinance has been a huge hit with a whole lot of people getting into it, only they turned it into loan sharking. So the govt stepping in with regulations and transparency and the added benefit of a bank account is a good thing. What Modi's govt is banking on is the scale of the enterprise which is staggering and microfinance has a history of having good returns.

How micro-finance institutions beat nationalised banks « Swaminomics

The biggest defaults happen with bigger corporations. It holds true to the maxim, "If you owe your bank a $100, you have a problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem."

Now I have observed that we have reached the end of the line and since no new facts are forth coming and we are only trading opinions let us stop this and not go further. You can have the last word if you wish

How generous of you.