India Lifts Ban on Denel

[sancho]

Well as long as we are gaining the know how by building it here,who gives a damn where it was developed

Because the one gives you the know how, how to produce it, the other how to develop it. We will produce GE 414 engines in India, which doesn't mean we can develop a similar engine. We will produce Rafale, doesn't mean we can develop it.
And we shouldn't fall to the naive idea to believe that the gun is Indian, only we provided the platform for it. Tata is the owner of the platform, might add some subsystems for the gun and either they or an Indian partner will licence produce the gun, but if they know and understand how to develop the same is another point. Look at OFB and Dhanush, which is based on decade old know how of the Bofors gun. That's exactly why the PR of the BJP to icrease the manufacturing side in India, which then should make India less dependent on imports is so silly. The TATA howitzer is dependent on importing the howitzer, no matter if it's produced in India.
What we actually need is more co-developments, in the line of Brahmos, Barak 8, Maitri SAM, FGFA, MTA..., that will actually give us the know how and experience for the production AND later developments.

 

[Echo_419]

Because the one gives you the know how, how to produce it, the other how to develop it. We will produce GE 414 engines in India, which doesn't mean we can develop a similar engine. We will produce Rafale, doesn't mean we can develop it.
And we shouldn't fall to the naive idea to believe that the gun is Indian, only we provided the platform for it. Tata is the owner of the platform, might add some subsystems for the gun and either they or an Indian partner will licence produce the gun, but if they know and understand how to develop the same is another point. Look at OFB and Dhanush, which is based on decade old know how of the Bofors gun. That's exactly why the PR of the BJP to icrease the manufacturing side in India, which then should make India less dependent on imports is so silly. The TATA howitzer is dependent on importing the howitzer, no matter if it's produced in India.
What we actually need is more co-developments, in the line of Brahmos, Barak 8, Maitri SAM, FGFA, MTA..., that will actually give us the know how and experience for the production AND later developments.

What i was trying to say when they manufacture it here by making all of it's components here & not just act as a screw driver girl maybe over the years they can learn to produce better quality components themselves & next time they bid,they bid with a gun developed in India.

 

[sancho]

What i was trying to say when they manufacture it here by making all of it's components here & not just act as a screw driver girl maybe over the years they can learn to produce better quality components themselves & next time they bid,they bid with a gun developed in India.

I know, but that's why I said, the basic production alone doesn't help here, since we don't know if they will produce all parts here, or also assemble important parts, that are produced abroad. A joint development instead, gives you access to all the techs during the development itself and gives you much more know how. The only other way is, to do it like the Kalyani group has done it, take over foreign companies and also their know how and then produce things in India, based on that know how.

 

[Echo_419]

I know, but that's why I said, the basic production alone doesn't help here, since we don't know if they will produce all parts here, or also assemble important parts, that are produced abroad. A joint development instead, gives you access to all the techs during the development itself and gives you much more know how. The only other way is, to do it like the Kalyani group has done it, take over foreign companies and also their know how and then produce things in India, based on that know how.

Then i hope Kalyani group wins the artillery competition

 

[sancho]

Then i hope Kalyani group wins the artillery competition

I hope not, at least not because they now will be considered to be the indigenous solution, because that can't be a factor in deciding competitions! If they offer a suitable gun under the best conditions, at reasonable costs, then they should win.

 

[Echo_419]

I hope not, at least not because they now will be considered to be the indigenous solution, because that can't be a factor in deciding competitions! If they offer a suitable gun under the best conditions, at reasonable costs, then they should win.

Yes,i was hoping they would win under those conditions

 

[sancho]

Yes,i was hoping they would win under those conditions

So far I think they only can bid for towed howitzers and there they are in competition to the Dhanush howitzer. The alternative to M777 is only under development and might come too later and I can't recall that they teamed up with anyone for the self propelled howitzers.

 

[Echo_419]

only can bid for towed howitzers and there they are in competition to the Dhanush howitzer. The alternative to M777 is only under development and might come too later and I can't recall that they teamed up with anyone for the self propelled howitzers.

Let's see if they can deliver anything comparable to M-777 they should be selected we can't depend forever on imports

 

[sancho]

Let's see if they can deliver anything comparable to M-777 they should be selected we can't depend forever on imports

I don't think waiting for an indigenous option, without knowing what the performance might be is good for the security of the country. We need the light howitzers the sooner the better and if the US can change things to comply to the offset requirements, we need to buy the M777 fast.

 

[Echo_419]

I don't think waiting for an indigenous option, without knowing what the performance might be is good for the security of the country. We need the light howitzers the sooner the better and if the US can change things to comply to the offset requirements, we need to buy the M777 fast.

Well perhaps we can go for both of them or better yet offer Kalyani to manufacture these things

 

[MST]

Because the one gives you the know how, how to produce it, the other how to develop it. We will produce GE 414 engines in India, which doesn't mean we can develop a similar engine. We will produce Rafale, doesn't mean we can develop it.
And we shouldn't fall to the naive idea to believe that the gun is Indian, only we provided the platform for it. Tata is the owner of the platform, might add some subsystems for the gun and either they or an Indian partner will licence produce the gun, but if they know and understand how to develop the same is another point. Look at OFB and Dhanush, which is based on decade old know how of the Bofors gun. That's exactly why the PR of the BJP to icrease the manufacturing side in India, which then should make India less dependent on imports is so silly. The TATA howitzer is dependent on importing the howitzer, no matter if it's produced in India.
What we actually need is more co-developments, in the line of Brahmos, Barak 8, Maitri SAM, FGFA, MTA..., that will actually give us the know how and experience for the production AND later developments.

I don't think Russia has given Ramjet engine technology for Brahmos nor Israel has given the seeker technology for Barak 8. So how are these any different from Bhim. Its foolish to think anyone will give such sensitive technology. Unless Indian Labs focus on R&D on core materials level we will continue to assemble products.

What Modi govt is trying to do is to build India as a manufactured base so that even if don't have the technology others can come and use India as a base. Similar to Automobile industry. Thats a big step forward from the Congress Policy.

 

[sancho]

Well perhaps we can go for both of them or better yet offer Kalyani to manufacture these things

What for? Only because it's indigenous? Again that has no importance, if it's not avaiable now. We have the requirement of a certain number today and splitting that requirement makes the M777 only more expensive.

So how are these any different from Bhim.

Bhim is no joint development, we only integrated the Denel gun that already was available, into the chassis of the Arjun. So licence producing the gun doesn't give us the right to modify as we need, that's something that we can do with Brahmos, since we co-own it.

Its foolish to think anyone will give such sensitive technology.

They don't give it unless they have to, if they can't sell us their techs like in the past, they have to open up. That's why Russia went from basic exports, to licence production and today even to joint developments with India, or why the US went from non selling, to offering nearly all that is available for exports and continue to change rules and regulations to comply to our demands (CISOMA, offsets and hopefully soon also the ToT demands). We are in the position to demand today and more importantly, have full access to all sides, because we are not limited to any specific defence cooperation.

What Modi govt is trying to do is to build India as a manufactured base so that even if don't have the technology others can come and use India as a base. Similar to Automobile industry. Thats a big step forward from the Congress Policy.

Not really, what they try is to increase the number of jobs in India, that requires a larger manufacturing industry, but that doesn't make India more self reliable, because it doesn't force the foreign vendors to divert critical ToT and they know it, that's why they did limited FDI to 49% just as the former DM had done it too, just as I showed here:

Indian firms tool up for defense orders on Modi's 'buy India' pledge


there is no difference in policy to the former MoD other than the corrections in the banning under corruption charges, which is a welcomed move though.

 

[MST]

Bhim is no joint development, we only integrated the Denel gun that already was available, into the chassis of the Arjun. So licence producing the gun doesn't give us the right to modify as we need, that's something that we can do with Brahmos, since we co-own it.

I still see no difference between Bhim and lets say Barak 8.

Bhim -> India brings chassis. Denel provides gun. It can be manufactured in India (Denel will provide the manufacturing specification).

Can we make a new better gun. NO.

Barak 8 -> India brings Dual pulse motor. Israel brings seekers. It will be manufactured in India.

Does it mean can we make a better seeker or a better missile (e.g. improve our AA missile): NO
The only thing in this case that will happen is that we will get some revenue. Looking at the Brahmos example and requirements of India itself I doubt that is happening anytime soon.

They don't give it unless they have to, if they can't sell us their techs like in the past, they have to open up. That's why Russia went from basic exports, to licence production and today even to joint developments with India, or why the US went from non selling, to offering nearly all that is available for exports and continue to change rules and regulations to comply to our demands (CISOMA, offsets and hopefully soon also the ToT demands). We are in the position to demand today and more importantly, have full access to all sides, because we are not limited to any specific defence cooperation.

I will believe it when it happens. Other wise its theoretical. All the examples are of assembly. Sometimes Indian components (e.g. guidance systems in Brahmos or dual pulse motor in Barak 8) are added. But I still have to see a full TOT (at the material level) critical things like radar, engine.

Not really, what they try is to increase the number of jobs in India, that requires a larger manufacturing industry, but that doesn't make India more self reliable, because it doesn't force the foreign vendors to divert critical ToT and they know it, that's why they did limited FDI to 49% just as the former DM had done it too, just as I showed here:

Indian firms tool up for defense orders on Modi's 'buy India' pledge


there is no difference in policy to the former MoD other than the corrections in the banning under corruption charges, which is a welcomed move though.

Increasing number of jobs is a pretty important thing I would say.

The difference between the congress and nda govt policy is huge. Don't know how you can't see it. Let me try that with Maruti example.

The Congress defence policy was equivalent to auto policy of indian govt in 1970s. Where they got suzuki to transfer tech (some basic level tech and rest imported) to Maruti (a govt owned company today equivalent to HAL) to produce cars for indian market. Now NDA policy (or atleast what they are trying to do) is like the auto policy today. Where various international companies set up manufacturing for local as well as global market.

Don't focus too much on the 49% number. The govt will increase it if they feel its required to achieve the goals.
Self sufficiency will only come if our govt or companies spend massivly in core R&D. That will come once money comes in.

 

[sancho]

Does it mean can we make a better seeker or a better missile (e.g. improve our AA missile): NO

YES! Because we are involved in the development itself, have access to all techs and gain from experience too, not to mention that we include our requirements in the development stage itself, while the Denel gun was developed for their requirements and we have to take the performance we can get, not the one we might want.
So for any further development or modification of the howitzer, we remain dependent on Denel, while we can modify Barak 8 if we feel the need too. Just as the access to techs and experience will make us more capable to develop a future SAM on our own, while the basic production know how, which in most cases includes only assembly of parts produced abroad, won't help us in future developments.

Looking at the Brahmos example and requirements of India itself I doubt that is happening anytime soon.

It already happend several times. We upgraded the software constantly on our own, we developed the pylons for the air launched version, we modified it for landbased or submerged launch...
The joint development of Brahmos M will include the new development of the engine, possibly even completely by DRDO with Russian assistance, while the long term prospect is the hypersonic Brahmos. Compare all than with the Nirbhay development and you will understand how far we lack behind and how long it might take, to develop Brahmos M or even the Hypersonic Brahmos on our own. That's the advantage of joint developments, it cuts development time, because we gain from foreign know how. That gives us the chance to catch up faster, which we otherwise can't as the LCA development sadly has proven. We might have had success in certain fields, but can't do it alone.

I will believe it when it happens. Other wise its theoretical. All the examples are of assembly. Sometimes Indian components (e.g. guidance systems in Brahmos or dual pulse motor in Barak 8) are added.

And what the problem with that anyway? We have such an dismissal against projects where we only provide subsystems. Look around, most of the developing and even many advanced nations does it like that and are happy. Rafale's SPIKE was initially developed by Germany, Turkey's TAI 129 combat helicopter is based on an Italian helicopter, with US engines and guns, the Japan has made their own version of the F16, Brazilans are modifying Exocet missiles with own propulsions...
We would do much better to develop indigenous AESA and Kaveri engine for Mig 29K upgrades, than for LCA, because the former would be more independent and is the more capable platform, while LCA can't afford more delays by waiting for these techs to be available. But our pride is limiting us, to make our forces more capable and develop our industry faster.

But I still have to see a full TOT (at the material level) critical things like radar, engine.

That's what we now are up to at MMRCA and most likely at FGFA, the first time that we got such deals, since even MKI included only assembling of radars. Now is the time and the chance for us to get so many benefits, we just need to use our advantage now.

Increasing number of jobs is a pretty important thing I would say.

Sure it is, but then the BJP should be honest about it and not claim nonsense things like making Indian independent from imports. Manufacturing parts in India that are not interesting for Indian forces, or not include critical techs to improve our industry, won't make us any better.

The difference between the congress and nda govt policy is huge...

...Where various international companies set up manufacturing for local as well as global market.

Please check the links I provided! It was the UPA that initiated the involvement of local industry it was UPA that increased industrial benefits through higher offset and ToT demands, it was the UPA that aimed on making India to a defence production hub...
You can take the MMRCA competition alone, which even if not finished, brought in nearly all major aero companies to establish either relations to Indian industry or even set up own facilties in India (Boeing on production hubs and deep relations to TATA, HAL and now Reliance, Airbus R&D hubs, ties to HAL or L&T...).
All these things are already available and just use them to gain more with the FDI increase now, but it's far away from being something new.

Self sufficiency will only come if our govt or companies spend massivly in core R&D

If that would be true, China would not need to copy so much foreing stuff, would not be dependent on Russia for engines and would not require Russian and Europeans for 90% of their helicopters. Or the otherside, if money is the only key for successful developments, countries like Israel, S. Africa or Sweden would not be that good in the defence field, since their investments are far lower.