India joining Quad will do more harm than good

[Sanchez]

China does not consider India an enemy because you are too weak！Does it hurt？I hope not！

 

[Joe Shearer]

Whehter you like it not .. china will leave no opportunity to harm india and it's interest either directly or through its pets.
On the other hand joining a quad is also not a good option. With so much vagueness over the exact nature of alliance and the benefits it's better to tread cautiously. Best option to grow partnership with japan and usa on case to case basis.


Do you think chinese will respect indian interests ?

No, I don't. But I also don't think that kicking sand in their faces is going to impress them very much.

As a minor poet wrote,"Draco dormiens, numquam tittilandum."

 

[punit]

No, I don't. But I also don't think that kicking sand in their faces is going to impress them very much.

As a minor poet wrote,"Draco dormiens, numquam tittilandum."

We are not kicking sand in their face !Not yet.

 

[randomradio]

And keeping the world's largest and potentially best army on its toes? That is also a Good Thing?

The "world's largest and potentially best army" is going to need more money to stay that way. And that puts pressure on their shaky economy.

Right now, we don't need to play the American game. But if the Chinese become more belligerent, we will have the option of upping the game without any major investment.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...lations-trump-donglang-beijing/1/1090061.html

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Don't know about the others, but definetly good for Pak.....

Pak has become like a double edged sword for the Indian geopolitical moves - the grander the move, no matter which direction it is, the higher the benefit for Pak....

I have to admit the Congress folks were much more adept in "isolating" Pak and constraining her room to manuever. Is it due to their capability to understand the Muslim mindsets better?????

 

[kadamba-warrior]

No, I don't. But I also don't think that kicking sand in their faces is going to impress them very much.

As a minor poet wrote,"Draco dormiens, numquam tittilandum."

Respectfully disagree. I don't have much to comment on the Quad, it is early days and nothing is clear about it's charter.

But on the contrary, it is the Chinese that have been kicking sand in India's face without any provocation. These are the same people who routinely go out of their way to block resolutions against UN-designated Pakistani terrorists that continue to cause mayhem in India. These people act like insecure bunch of hypocrites when it comes to One-China policy, but wouldn't think twice about bulldozing, literally, their way through the other part of Kashmir that India, legitimately, claims!

They chose to transgress into Indian territory even as their President was enjoying Indian hospitality.

This is the country that went out of their way to deny India an NSG high-seat, even knowing fully well that NSG membership was merely symbolic and any attempt to block it will only antagonize India. You know as well as me what their views are with regard to India's UNSC membership application.

I am amazed at people who try to portray India as the needless aggressor vis-à-vis China. But they completely forget that India doesn't even have a choice. I don't know if the Chinese have been working on some grand game plan, but it has been a regular pattern seeing them poking India at every available opportunity without provocation.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Don't know about the others, but definetly good for Pak.....

Pak has become like a double edged sword for the Indian geopolitical moves - the grander the move, no matter which direction it is, the higher the benefit for Pak....

I have to admit the Congress folks were much more adept in "isolating" Pak and constraining her room to manuever. Is it due to their capability to understand the Muslim mindsets better?????

There is nothing called a Muslim mindset. Please try to emerge into the nineteenth century; it would help in various ways.

The "world's largest and potentially best army" is going to need more money to stay that way. And that puts pressure on their shaky economy.

There was a Panchatantra story about a hungry fox, that suddenly saw a very large bull passing by. "Those two bits of meat are bound to fall off any minute now", thought the fox, and decided to follow the bull till that glad moment happened. It finally died of starvation. Verb. sap., or, as you are a revisionist and proud of it, samajhdaron ke liye ishara...and all that.

Right now, we don't need to play the American game. But if the Chinese become more belligerent, we will have the option of upping the game without any major investment.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...lations-trump-donglang-beijing/1/1090061.html

And the Americans will hang around in the waiting room, patiently waiting for their token number to be called out. Interesting thought. Is there a mindset (there's a somewhat intellectually challenged and flowery language using gent already using 'mindset' as a feature common to all Muslims) called Indic?

Respectfully disagree. I don't have much to comment on the Quad, it is early days and nothing is clear about it's charter.

But on the contrary, it is the Chinese that have been kicking sand in India's face without any provocation. These are the same people who routinely go out of their way to block resolutions against UN-designated Pakistani terrorists that continue to cause mayhem in India. These people act like insecure bunch of hypocrites when it comes to One-China policy, but wouldn't think twice about bulldozing, literally, their way through the other part of Kashmir that India, legitimately, claims!

They chose to transgress into Indian territory even as their President was enjoying Indian hospitality.

This is the country that went out of their way to deny India an NSG high-seat, even knowing fully well that NSG membership was merely symbolic and any attempt to block it will only antagonize India. You know as well as me what their views are with regard to India's UNSC membership application.

I am amazed at people who try to portray India as the needless aggressor vis-à-vis China. But they completely forget that India doesn't even have a choice. I don't know if the Chinese have been working on some grand game plan, but it has been a regular pattern seeing them poking India at every available opportunity without provocation.

This is a reasonable point of view, and not one that I disagree with. My point is that joining a nebulous group such as Quad will merely achieve provocation without any increase in our capacity to withstand Chinese pressure.

IMO it is much better to start at the very beginning, bottom up, and concentrate on providing the basic necessities of life to our poorest sections, radically reforming ourselves to re-orient our administration, our legislative programme and our judicial structure to support them; that includes turning our health-care system upside down, putting our heads down and re-creating our educational system from the primary stage upwards, allowing the tertiary system to grow on its own, subject to strict adherence to norms and disciplines, and systematically focussing on mass employment opportunities.

Similarly on defence, it would be necessary to start from the ground up, without disturbing present systems, with a mass-conscription/ national service based military backing the existing professional volunteer army, navy and air forces, and with arms and ammunition at a basic level, entirely designed and built in India. We already have the design and development capabilities for building stores at such a basic level, including the experience of building aircraft engines, marine engines and terrestrial engines. That would be a far more formidable array of strength and a deterrent than today's well-organised and well-staffed and led forces with peculiar, lop-sided gaps in its equipment, deficiencies in its doctrine and confusion created by a political class with no knowledge or experience of international relations and of putting together teams across foreign servicemen, civil servants and the military.

If we have to live a peaceful, undisturbed existence, it is true that we should not seem or be in any way vulnerable to Chinese interference, as we should not be in any way vulnerable to soldier-less warfare by other enemies. The way to achieve that is not through shallow, gimmicky 'alliances' that don't exist or are one military cooperative manoeuvre deep; the way to achieve it is through first building up our economy, making our people sufficiently well-fed, housed and clothed not to be miserable, and putting together systems and institutions that will give us a firm national base.

 

[randomradio]

There was a Panchatantra story about a hungry fox, that suddenly saw a very large bull passing by. "Those two bits of meat are bound to fall off any minute now", thought the fox, and decided to follow the bull till that glad moment happened. It finally died of starvation. Verb. sap., or, as you are a revisionist and proud of it, samajhdaron ke liye ishara...and all that.

Good thing we are a different bull.

The Chinese are slowing down.
https://www.ft.com/content/8a4ae6de-c9d5-11e7-ab18-7a9fb7d6163e

The fact is China cannot afford India as an enemy, and vice versa.

America wants us to be enemies in order to alleviate their situation in the east. But, as I said, if China becomes belligerent, we have backup. If China doesn't become belligerent, then we have no need for American backup. But if we do have American backup, the potential for China to be belligerent towards India actually reduces. Catch 22.

We literally have to do nothing except improve our economy and modernize the military. China will decide for us. After all, we will stay friendly with China as long as they want to be friendly with their neighbours. The Chinese will decide whether they want to remain friendly or not.

We'll cross the bridge when it comes.

And the Americans will hang around in the waiting room, patiently waiting for their token number to be called out. Interesting thought.

They don't have a choice. What else do you think they can do?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Good thing we are a different bull.

The Chinese are slowing down.
https://www.ft.com/content/8a4ae6de-c9d5-11e7-ab18-7a9fb7d6163e

The fact is China cannot afford India as an enemy, and vice versa.

America wants us to be enemies in order to alleviate their situation in the east. But, as I said, if China becomes belligerent, we have backup. If China doesn't become belligerent, then we have no need for American backup. But if we do have American backup, the potential for China to be belligerent towards India actually reduces. Catch 22.

We literally have to do nothing except improve our economy and modernize the military. China will decide for us. After all, we will stay friendly with China as long as they want to be friendly with their neighbours. The Chinese will decide whether they want to remain friendly or not.

We'll cross the bridge when it comes.



They don't have a choice. What else do you think they can do?

Don't wait for those two pieces of meat, just stick to ensuring daily daal and chawal, or you will face the prospect of dying of starvation.

The Chinese economy may be slowing down; they can afford it, they are at a level where even a very small percentage growth keeps intact a handsome absolute amount of growth. Meanwhile, the ugly reality is that thanks to the Indian supreme leader's bungles and publicity-driven blunders, we are not catching up.

Today, and through till 2050 at the least, China will continue to be stronger militarily. They do not get drawn into border skirmishes or risk anything on the outcome of such incidents. When they mean business, they prepare for six months ahead. So the bridge, when it comes, will be as difficult to cross as it was in 1962; the differentials remain the same. It is for that reason that irritating the Chinese is likely to be as bad a decision as caving in to the PLA.

America's role, as a power in decline, is irrelevant.

 

[randomradio]

The Chinese economy may be slowing down; they can afford it, they are at a level where even a very small percentage growth keeps intact a handsome absolute amount of growth. Meanwhile, the ugly reality is that thanks to the Indian supreme leader's bungles and publicity-driven blunders, we are not catching up.

No, they can't afford it. They are slowing down as a middle income country, not as a rich country. They needed another decade of high growth.

As for India, we only need to continue doing as we are. We don't need to catch up, we only need to keep up, they will slow down enough for us to catch up eventually. The power of compounding works for us as well.

Since Modi came to power, India has added $500-600B to its GDP.
Since 2014, China has added $600B to its GDP.

Today, and through till 2050 at the least, China will continue to be stronger militarily. They do not get drawn into border skirmishes or risk anything on the outcome of such incidents. When they mean business, they prepare for six months ahead. So the bridge, when it comes, will be as difficult to cross as it was in 1962; the differentials remain the same. It is for that reason that irritating the Chinese is likely to be as bad a decision as caving in to the PLA.

You are assuming two extremes. Either total peace or total war. The reality is somewhere in between.

What you are proposing is the next time we have Doklam, we should simple keel over and let the Chinese do whatever they want. We can't have that.

 

[Cherokee]

This move is wrong on so many levels. Lets hope modi loses next elections or we are shafted up where-sun-doesn't-shines.

India and China have existed for thousands of year without attacking each other. Right now both China and India are trying to play the game of poker but at the end of the day India has more to lose if China goes all in.

ALSO N E V E R T R U S T A M E R I C A N S.

 

[Kinetic]

I think this is a mind-numbingly stupid idea. What does India get from it? Military cooperation and a mutual self-defence pact? Sharing of military technology? Mutual aid, other than military aid, strengthening the foundations of military power? And, on the other hand, what does India stand to lose?

Will the four act as one self-defence entity? If the Japanese are attacked in the Ryu Kyu Islands, will India retaliate by attacking in Nathu La?

Will the US give us the F 35? Just as it has given it/ will give it to her allies, Australia, and Japan? Help us to set up manufacturing lines to manufacture home-grown aircraft? Tanks, ships, even missiles, some day?

How about a common market to encourage trade, strengthen the foundations of development, enable the partners to build a stronger, most robust system?

It sounds as if the answer is negative in all three cases. No mutual pact, no military technology, no economic links. Just more selfie opportunities. AND the guaranteed resentment of China. The Quad is also genetically weak; who can trust the Australian racists? They will be quick to get away and kiss the largest muscle on the Chinese body, at the slight hint of trouble. As they did last time.

The situation looks like a replay on a hugely extended scale of Athens vs. Sparta, Athens unbeatable at sea, Sparta unbeatable on land. But the Indian Navy is nowhere near being in a position to rule the waves and baulk the Chinese, who have roughly three times the ship-building capacity of India.

All in all, a BAD idea. Very Modi in being superficial, self-glorifying and infructuous.

Its pre-requisite for Asian allied power (democracy) like WW-II against Nazi Germany (now China).