India Jaguar fighters face upgrade challenges

[ashok321]

Jaguar airframe will reach its limit rather than upgrading these planes the money could've been used to buy more su-30mki or invest it on the super sukhoi program..

They want to stretch it thin, while the air frame is same, they are adding more dead weight, pushing the envelope. The airframe might disintegrate in mid air down the road.

 

[GuardianRED]

They want to stretch it thin, while the air frame is same, they are adding more dead weight, pushing the envelope. The airframe might disintegrate in mid air down the road.

And the troll is still speaking !!!... pal ... already frames with new engines have been tested by Honeywell and Rolls Royce in the presence of IAF !!!

 

[ziaulislam]

Please read up on the upgrade!!!... The engines , both rolls royce and honeywell engines have a drop fit design with minimum or no structural changes !!! thus quick turn around (there is a nice videos on this on youtube)

Darin 3 upgrade is add-on to already inducted Darin 2 upgrade. So to upgrade is in existing frames and short time.

The Su30 is a Primary a Air dominance fighter and the LCA is primary a Point defence! All have there role including the Jags

su 30 is multi-role fighter, LCA is multi role fighter (LCA was envision is a multirole fighter, su 27 was an air dominance though)

Darin 3 update prototype just rolled out without the engines upgrades(correct me if wrong), the program is at least 10 years behind schedule(atleast meaning still work is left in finalizing the pro-type), once this is done it would take another 5 years to complete the upgrade so best case scenario is time line of 2025 which is 15 years behind schedule
as jaugaur were meant to be updated by 2015 and leave by 2030

now IAF is throwing up another punch line that instead of retiring them by 2030 (which seems idiotic why retire just after 5 years of upgrade, they are pushing it from 2035 onward, this would end up another bison story where over 1 billion dollars were spent on upgrade without realizing the end of their structural life

jauguar is 1950 era training fighter bomber, LCA outclass it in every department(Range, payload, weapons)

what india is essentially doing is complete overhaul of jaugers, such an overhaul would have been too expensive even if it had been done 10 years ago, now its idiotic

problem is when some body in planning department pitches an idea, its followed through without thinking,
originally Darin III never had an engine upgrade that was brought in after it was found the extensive upgrade would be too heavy for previous engines, instead of scraping the whole deal, it was decided to add more to it, which would have made some sense(it has been done to Mirage5 by South africa for example) but now that porgram is well over 10 years late and LCA/su 30MKI is ready its purely idioitc

 

[GuardianRED]

su 30 is multi-role fighter, LCA is multi role fighter (LCA was envision is a multirole fighter, su 27 was an air dominance though)

Darin 3 update prototype just rolled out without the engines upgrades(correct me if wrong), the program is at least 10 years behind schedule(atleast meaning still work is left in finalizing the pro-type), once this is done it would take another 5 years to complete the upgrade so best case scenario is time line of 2025 which is 15 years behind schedule
as jaugaur were meant to be updated by 2015 and leave by 2030

now IAF is throwing up another punch line that instead of retiring them by 2030 (which seems idiotic why retire just after 5 years of upgrade, they are pushing it from 2035 onward, this would end up another bison story where over 1 billion dollars were spent on upgrade without realizing the end of their structural life

jauguar is 1950 era training fighter bomber, LCA outclass it in every department(Range, payload, weapons)

what india is essentially doing is complete overhaul of jaugers, such an overhaul would have been too expensive even if it had been done 10 years ago, now its idiotic

problem is when some body in planning department pitches an idea, its followed through without thinking,
originally Darin III never had an engine upgrade that was brought in after it was found the extensive upgrade would be too heavy for previous engines, instead of scraping the whole deal, it was decided to add more to it, which would have made some sense(it has been done to Mirage5 by South africa for example) but now that porgram is well over 10 years late and LCA/su 30MKI is ready its purely idioitc

Pal... Military planner will decided which aircraft is capable of doing what and what role will suit them the most .. NOT BROCHURES

Again, you really need to read up on the Upgrade program. The DARIN 3 is a 3rd Stage program that was decided at the end of DARIN 2 program. The First fight of the DARIN 3 was in 2012 , with the IOC in 2015 and FOC in 2017.So yes it is couple of years late ... NOT 15 YEARS late!!!

The Re-engine program was always separate from the DARIN upgrades, thus the DARIN 3 will continue still its completion. The signing for new engines is to be done this year, and as mention in the earlier post there are minimum or no structural changes to the frame. So its completion will be on depends on the delivery of these engine

Bison story??? structural life???? .... very sad - you don't know that an audit is always done even before any upgrade program + and that only later variants ie - MiG21 Bis will be upgraded and other variants will be retired once new frames of the MKI/Rafale/LCA are added. Till then they will be flying . No problems there.

Jaguar is 1950era??? ... again , lack of knowledge on the jaguar is showing... The jaguar joined the RAF in 1973 and join the IAF in 1979 (old RAF frames for training, then return) with HAL built frames in 1981/82... with the last batch ordered in 2001/02 - please read up

Trying to understand the logic behind this .... first only 69 frames are marked for DARIN 3, this will be completed by 2025???? ... ok??!!! ... and the IAF will retire all 69 in 2030??? what is the logic behind that??? These are stated to fly to 2034/35 and that timeline isn't fixed in stone, so lets see

What is really sad that you conveniently forget that the IAF has options other than MKIs, LCA, Jaguars to perform Strike missiles ... Ie the MiG27UPG, MIG29UPG and Mirages 2000I. So depending on the mission requirements , the IAF will make the decision

Here for fun

 

[ziaulislam]

Pal... Military planner will decided which aircraft is capable of doing what and what role will suit them the most .. NOT BROCHURES

Again, you really need to read up on the Upgrade program. The DARIN 3 is a 3rd Stage program that was decided at the end of DARIN 2 program. The First fight of the DARIN 3 was in 2012 , with the IOC in 2015 and FOC in 2017.So yes it is couple of years late ... NOT 15 YEARS late!!!

The Re-engine program was always separate from the DARIN upgrades, thus the DARIN 3 will continue still its completion. The signing for new engines is to be done this year, and as mention in the earlier post there are minimum or no structural changes to the frame. So its completion will be on depends on the delivery of these engine

Bison story??? structural life???? .... very sad - you don't know that an audit is always done even before any upgrade program + and that only later variants ie - MiG21 Bis will be upgraded and other variants will be retired once new frames of the MKI/Rafale/LCA are added. Till then they will be flying . No problems there.

Jaguar is 1950era??? ... again , lack of knowledge on the jaguar is showing... The jaguar joined the RAF in 1973 and join the IAF in 1979 (old RAF frames for training, then return) with HAL built frames in 1981/82... with the last batch ordered in 2001/02 - please read up

Trying to understand the logic behind this .... first only 69 frames are marked for DARIN 3, this will be completed by 2025???? ... ok??!!! ... and the IAF will retire all 69 in 2030??? what is the logic behind that??? These are stated to fly to 2034/35 and that timeline isn't fixed in stone, so lets see

What is really sad that you conveniently forget that the IAF has options other than MKIs, LCA, Jaguars to perform Strike missiles ... Ie the MiG27UPG, MIG29UPG and Mirages 2000I. So depending on the mission requirements , the IAF will make the decision

Here for fun

so were later versionof PG brought in 2002, does that answer the question that due to older techiniques of manufacturing life is still limited to 3000 hrs or 30 years?
its still 1960 era plane
and no Bison had lots of issues
IAF chief is on record that Darin 3 will make already under pwoered aircraft too heavy and thus will absolutely need an engine update
no sir, nothing is as simple as simple swap, it would take months and likely years of testing to get the new engine certified for Darin 3 update

you misunderstood me, what i said originally they were intended to retire in 2025 but after the upgrade beng delayed IAF are going to push them to 2035 which again is still stupid, assuming the upgrade will take atleast 5 years thats just 10 years, darin 3 will be cost effective if its a mid life upgrade not a "near end life" upgrade, if it doesn't add 20 years its not cost effective

if you are in denial than its fine, but dont be surprised that another CAG report is out a decade later saying exactly what i said.

remeber DArin 1 went through 1990s, darin 2 through 2000s and darin3 was meant to;

• planned 2009
• prototype & IOC 2011-12
• completion of first 50 by 2015/16

its already 7 years behind and is going to fall back even more because of lack of parts, including engines etc

 

[GuardianRED]

so were later versionof PG brought in 2002, does that answer the question that due to older techiniques of manufacturing life is still limited to 3000 hrs or 30 years?
its still 1960 era plane
and no Bison had lots of issues
IAF chief is on record that Darin 3 will make already under pwoered aircraft too heavy and thus will absolutely need an engine update
no sir, nothing is as simple as simple swap, it would take months and likely years of testing to get the new engine certified for Darin 3 update

you misunderstood me, what i said originally they were intended to retire in 2025 but after the upgrade beng delayed IAF are going to push them to 2035 which again is still stupid, assuming the upgrade will take atleast 5 years thats just 10 years, darin 3 will be cost effective if its a mid life upgrade not a "near end life" upgrade, if it doesn't add 20 years its not cost effective

if you are in denial than its fine, but dont be surprised that another CAG report is out a decade later saying exactly what i said.

remeber DArin 1 went through 1990s, darin 2 through 2000s and darin3 was meant to;

• planned 2009
• prototype & IOC 2011-12
• completion of first 50 by 2015/16

its already 7 years behind and is going to fall back even more because of lack of parts, including engines etc

so were later versionof PG brought in 2002, does that answer the question that due to older techiniques of manufacturing life is still limited to 3000 hrs or 30 years?
its still 1960 era plane
and no Bison had lots of issues
IAF chief is on record that Darin 3 will make already under pwoered aircraft too heavy and thus will absolutely need an engine update
no sir, nothing is as simple as simple swap, it would take months and likely years of testing to get the new engine certified for Darin 3 update

you misunderstood me, what i said originally they were intended to retire in 2025 but after the upgrade beng delayed IAF are going to push them to 2035 which again is still stupid, assuming the upgrade will take atleast 5 years thats just 10 years, darin 3 will be cost effective if its a mid life upgrade not a "near end life" upgrade, if it doesn't add 20 years its not cost effective

if you are in denial than its fine, but dont be surprised that another CAG report is out a decade later saying exactly what i said.

remeber DArin 1 went through 1990s, darin 2 through 2000s and darin3 was meant to;

• planned 2009
• prototype & IOC 2011-12
• completion of first 50 by 2015/16

its already 7 years behind and is going to fall back even more because of lack of parts, including engines etc

How is a aircraft built in 1979 become a 1960 era ( first it was 1950 ) ??? what is the logic in that??? that is a 19 years difference .... you are funny!!!

Bison has lots of issues??? ... that it ..... just one line ???

Structural Technics?? apart from fabrication and metallurgy... assembly is pretty almost the same... plenty of videos available .... again have you read up on what constituted the DARIN program??? not only there are avionics upgrades it ALSO includes electrical, communications and structural changes + HAL is licensed to built and overhaul the both the structure and well as the engines for the jags when needed

Where is the denial???, It is a FACT that it was during the DARIN 2 upgrade which by the way was completed in 2009 and with the planning for the Darin 3 , that an engine upgrade would be needed BUT this was kept separate and a stand alone proposal ie the DARIN3 works will continue irrespective of the engine. Didn't a FOC Darin 3 frame fly or was it grounded ???

The engine... again if you bother to do some research as well as see the presentation which is available on youtube from both honeywell and Rolls Royce - excellent videos btw - where they installed 2 new engines in abt 2 -3 hours or more and even tested the aircraft the same day with no mods or structural changes. Even before the RFP was released , both engine manufactures installed new engines on existing jags frames and test it in presence of the IAF - please do look it up and ALSO one certify the engine for the Frame and weight has nothing to do with the DARIN 3 + you did read up on the DARIN 2 frames flying all the way to ALASKA red flag yes or no?? and reports release gave a 100% availability rate

Yes there is a delay - DARIN 2 was completed in 2009 , DARIN 3 was planned around the same time ... first phototype flew 2012 yes or no?? IOC 2015 yes or no? FOC 2017 yes or no?? -so that is 7- 8 years late NOT 15 years.

CAG report ....lol.... the report ONLY talked abt the issues with the autopilot which is a serious issues and hope it gets solved, nothing was mentioned in the so called lack of spares or engines -with such a large fleet, they would have found something by now yes or no??

Now again lack of spare parts ....lol... has any jaguar been grounded do to lack of spare parts or engine issues or lack of engines???? talk some sense. if you are talking abt the so called free jags frames from france?? please show was some official source from the french govt.+ the practice of buying frames for spare parts is normal (heck even the PAF bought frames from spain for the Mirages 3), if they come or don't come - this will not hither the operation of the Jags Fleet

Where is this mentioned this so call retire by 2025??? with the last frame delivered in 2005 , how the heck it becomes the near end of life?? Audits are always done to assess the flying hours of the frame THAT will decided the technical life of a frame NOT because you FEEL like IT and with the DARIN 3 upgrade - it is reported that it will extend the life by 15 - 20 years