India Between Rock and a Hard Place

[jk007]

Any chinese members or any other knowledgeable members. Please answer the following questions:
a) Why is china doing these incursions? What do they gain from it? Is it worth risking a huge Indian market.
b) China may loose indian market [with $50B trade surplus favouring china]. Is China willing to loose this?
c) Chinese companies will loose ability to participate in 5G bids in India. Is China willing to loose this?
d) China is pushing India into more and more alignment with USA & Japan. Is it in China's interests?
e) If there is a war, and if India defends itself, then it will be a big loss of face for China. Isn't it?

 

[ps3linux]

I want to discuss the current developing scenario from India's perspective.

Where India stands now?
Why India stands here?
What lies ahead?

To understand these three questions we need to visit the New World Order paradigm.

The idea of New World Order was to create an order of uni-polar world, with one (single) power controlling the world. The rest of the world was to be divided in different categories, as subservient to that single power. Controlling the energy resources, controlling the world trade and economics were the other aspects of this design.

India signed up to it about three decades ago and was given the task of controlling Pakistan and China. In return, she was promised a significant position on the table.

The crunch time has now come.

The powers that had promised India so much, had opened the gates of foreign investments to boost the economy, had offered everything in arms sales; are now demanding the action from India.

For her part, so far, India did what she was meant to do. An attack on Gilgit-Baltistan and neutralising the CPEC were on the cards.

But! suddenly, in the blink of an eye, the game has changed. The mighty dragon has placed the claw at the jugular. A two front war is certain. A three front war (with Nepal) is also a possibility, with loss of a significant fighting force of gurkhas. Sikhs are not too happy wither. Kashmir is boiling already.

My question is: what are the options for India?


@Horus @Agnostic @waz @Dubious @HRKMuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @Aamir Hussain @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
@ps3linux
@Verve @PakSword @Beast @beijingwalker @NA71

My friend options for them are getting limited by the day, as a nation they chose to walk the path of extremism/terrorism marginalizing minorities not juts small sized minorities significant sized ones first Sikhs, then Muslims and now Christians. There isn't a single country around india which enjoys good relationship with them, they have always been manipulating events, sponsoring terrorism and Pakistan is just one of them, remember Sri Lanka fought a long pitched war with indian sponsored terrorist, we are still fighting them.

They chose to vote for a political setup which is terrorist and extremist on very count, this is the path to self destruction, much as I detest and feel sorry, walking the same path I don't see India in its current geographical form couple of decades down the road. Had the disease of extremism and terrorism localized there would have been a chance of redemption but unfortunately it has spread throughout the country, majority of the population has become part of the same ideology, only people out of it are the minorities and a select few people who are now suffering from identity crisis.

 

[araz]

Its a united China-Pakistan front. There are no two fronts.

As long as there are 2 distinct countries there will always be 2 fronts. Much as people have a liking for China please remember that both countries have strategic interests which may or may not converge. We are currently together because we have interests and enemies that allign. This could change as future courses can take us along diverse routes.
I will finish off with a shair which is pertinent:
Aziz itna he rakho ke dil behel jai
Ab is qadar bhi na chaho ke dam nikal jai.
We need to be independent of ALL forces when charting OUR course. This is important as till such time that we have crutches to rely on we will not learn to walk and run
A

Now is the time Pakistan should up the ante. Why are we quiet on Kashmir front while India is gradually changing the equations in IoK!!

Mere words are not enough, Indians should be pressed and pressed hard.
Unfortunately, we have lost the initiative by not pressing hard enough in 2019. We have gone through that many times therefore, no point of repeating them.

One thing is certain that India would not stop, unless force is used to stop it.
If not today, tomorrow, we have to move to free Kashmir.
We should be ready for it. If we are not, those in control should be made responsible.

This is not a time for appeasing or worrying about the consequences.

Our narrative is dependent on foreign attention to what our polity has to say. As long as the region is quiet and the world has Corona Virus death toll on its mind, and whether industries will reopen, unfortunately no one gives two hoots about Kashmir. In many ways this is where the problem lies. Much as we shout about it, it all boils down to how much coverage our narrative gets on the international media and currently there is none.
Kashmir solution will have to be an indigenous effort as foreign intervention will lose all effective support for the narrative of the local populace and may bring in other opportunistic forces which might complicate matters even further. Kashmir is looking at Pakistan and unfortunately at this juncture Pakistan cannot intervene much as we want to. Even if by some flight of imagination we liberate Kashmir it will have to function as an independent state and that maybe no different to the current situation for Pakistan for reasons given above ie foreign forces/ interests stepping in to fill the void. These subtleties are where the root cause of all the effort or the lack of it lies.
My 2 pence worth to the discussion.
A

 

[crankthatskunk]

As long as there are 2 distinct countries there will always be 2 fronts. Much as people have a liking for China please remember that both countries have strategic interests which may or may not converge. We are currently together because we have interests and enemies that allign. This could change as future courses can take us along diverse routes.
I will finish off with a shair which is pertinent:
Aziz itna he rakho ke dil behel jai
Ab is qadar bhi na chaho ke dam nikal jai.
We need to be independent of ALL forces when charting OUR course. This is important as till such time that we have crutches to rely on we will not learn to walk and run
A


Our narrative is dependent on foreign attention to what our polity has to say. As long as the region is quiet and the world has Corona Virus death toll on its mind, and whether industries will reopen, unfortunately no one gives two hoots about Kashmir. In many ways this is where the problem lies. Much as we shout about it, it all boils down to how much coverage our narrative gets on the international media and currently there is none.
Kashmir solution will have to be an indigenous effort as foreign intervention will lose all effective support for the narrative of the local populace and may bring in other opportunistic forces which might complicate matters even further. Kashmir is looking at Pakistan and unfortunately at this juncture Pakistan cannot intervene much as we want to. Even if by some flight of imagination we liberate Kashmir it will have to function as an independent state and that maybe no different to the current situation for Pakistan for reasons given above ie foreign forces/ interests stepping in to fill the void. These subtleties are where the root cause of all the effort or the lack of it lies.
My 2 pence worth to the discussion.
A

The same goes for India. Are they hesitating!! No.
So why we bring bogus arguments and rationale all the time! Cowardice!!
Yes definitely.

There is only one solution. Might is right. Force, brutal force.

Otherwise, look at Palestine, whole world knew it, it was highlighted multiple times over decades.
Result!! Nada.

Look at the ramifications for the Arabs. Now all the Gulf Arab states are openly bowing down to Israeli and Palestinians are all alone.

Do we want same for Kashmiris!!

I hope not. Indian will learn only only language. They have learned from Israel. Are we gonna let the same fate befall on Kashmiris!!

 

[araz]

The same goes for India. Are they hesitating!! No.
So why we bring bogus arguments and rationale all the time! Cowardice!!
Yes definitely.

There is only one solution. Might is right. Force, brutal force.

Otherwise, look at Palestine, whole world knew it, it was highlighted multiple times over decades.
Result!! Nada.

Look at the ramifications for the Arabs. Now all the Gulf Arab states are openly bowing down to Israeli and Palestinians are all alone.

Do we want same for Kashmiris!!

I hope not. Indian will learn only only language. They have learned from Israel. Are we gonna let the same fate befall on Kashmiris!!

Let us wait and see what comes out of this. Fighting/arguing with each other is not going to help us. I understand your point of view and why you hold it. But unfortunately the world does not revolve the way we want it to revolve. Might is right has never been the motto of Islam, however, justifiable use of force has been. When the very definition of justifiable force comes from outside and you are made to abide by this dictum, then the problem is compounded. We can revert back to Islam but we are about as close to Islam as the Quresh of the jahilia. So what are the criteria on the basis of which you gather the necessary momentum to create the impetus for use of that force. Interestingly, one of the UN rules is even if you gain territory by use of aggressive force, you WILL be made to return it. Therein lies a second problem. Now one can bang his/her chest as much as you like but the right criteria must exist for you to wage that war that you talk about. Your current deficiencies are:
A. You are held to ransom by FATF.
B. Through the crazy policies of your Governments you are in debt to the world by 110 billion dollars and climbing.
C. Your reserves are to the tune of 16 billion dollars which are not enough for more than 2 weeks of war.
D. The nuclear element on both sides makes it a Zero sum game as whosoever is losing will utilize the MAD scenario and scorched earth or territory is no good for anyone.
E. A shift in power will allow opportunistic forces to step in and create more headache for you in the long term. This is one of the reasons an independent Kashmir has never been an attractive option to either India or Pakistan
So in essence, much as I hate myself for saying so,My analysis is that unless Indians make any aggressive moves beyond the border you will not be able to do anything to help the Kashmiri cause.
A

 

[hussain0216]

To top it all off hindutva extremism has divided India internally

Their is incredible poison amongst Indians at the moment

 

[Chanakyaa]

To top it all off hindutva extremism has divided India internally

Their is incredible poison amongst Indians at the moment

On contrary, post 1947 India has never been united before. Its not my openion, facts speak for themselves.

1. 303, Loksabha 2019
2. Modi popularity during covid 19

Look how quickly India, a poor country , with her limited resources is doing 1,00,000+ tests per day. While many nations have simoly given up.

 

[serenity]

In short, 100% correct. The NWO design for india is to contain and stiffle China. Hence the huge Western investments and arms transfers. So now india needs to contain China. If not then the West will eventually lose interest in india and then move on to the next prospect who they believe can take on China.

This is why things are unstable right now and no one knows where the ball shall roll. And for this reason too, China is wary of any conflict with India. It will become up to our leaders to discuss things behind closed doors. China doesn't want India to become USA's puppet and certainly doesn't want to waste time and material fighting a long war. All the wars the USA fought after Vietnam have slowly wearing it down in some areas. Of course it has given them a great war machine.

 

[Capt. Karnage]

I want to discuss the current developing scenario from India's perspective.

Where India stands now?
Why India stands here?
What lies ahead?

To understand these three questions we need to visit the New World Order paradigm.

The idea of New World Order was to create an order of uni-polar world, with one (single) power controlling the world. The rest of the world was to be divided in different categories, as subservient to that single power. Controlling the energy resources, controlling the world trade and economics were the other aspects of this design.

India signed up to it about three decades ago and was given the task of controlling Pakistan and China. In return, she was promised a significant position on the table.

The crunch time has now come.

The powers that had promised India so much, had opened the gates of foreign investments to boost the economy, had offered everything in arms sales; are now demanding the action from India.

For her part, so far, India did what she was meant to do. An attack on Gilgit-Baltistan and neutralising the CPEC were on the cards.

But! suddenly, in the blink of an eye, the game has changed. The mighty dragon has placed the claw at the jugular. A two front war is certain. A three front war (with Nepal) is also a possibility, with loss of a significant fighting force of gurkhas. Sikhs are not too happy wither. Kashmir is boiling already.

My question is: what are the options for India?


@Horus @Agnostic @waz @Dubious @HRKMuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @Aamir Hussain @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
@ps3linux
@Verve @PakSword @Beast @beijingwalker @NA71

Seriously, what did you smoke before writing this BS? Are one of those delusional illuminati believers?

 

[serenity]

Any chinese members or any other knowledgeable members. Please answer the following questions:
a) Why is china doing these incursions? What do they gain from it? Is it worth risking a huge Indian market.
b) China may loose indian market [with $50B trade surplus favouring china]. Is China willing to loose this?
c) Chinese companies will loose ability to participate in 5G bids in India. Is China willing to loose this?
d) China is pushing India into more and more alignment with USA & Japan. Is it in China's interests?
e) If there is a war, and if India defends itself, then it will be a big loss of face for China. Isn't it?

a) But can you also see how Indian media and members here cannot even agree what really is happening? Chinese media only have said border with India has issues and things can get out of control. So here you are saying China is doing incursions but this page alone is full of Indian members saying it is India who has gone into China and set some camp or somethings and China is too scared or something.

b) It will not lose this to be honest. Of course people can think differently but currently unless all everyday item and business necessities can be manufactured just as cheap in India or somewhere else, then the market if it gets lost becomes only lost slowly not in one or two months. If for example your government bans all Chinese products then will average Indian buy German product or Japanese? Okay if you want to set up production in India, then how come it has not happened. We can all make reasons and assumptions but the market and economic forces are not quite so simple. India will need to start gradually doing this now and in some years time, you will have benefits and in decades then India will be totally self reliant and require nothing imported except things it does not have.

c) It can lose 5G Indian contract. I don't think it cares that much. All trade is two way. Like above, it's not like China is only selling $1,000,000 Ferrari cars which you can actually not buy and be fine without. It usually sells things most businesses require at a certain price and quality that so far exceeds most offered in world but of course Thailand and many other places offer similar price and quality ratio but maybe not supply chain reliability when you calculate transportation for example. Supply chain management is easy to disrupt and kill small businesses and create major economic issues if changed suddenly. Anyway 5G brings many benefits like centralized city management which can involve driverless bus, cars, trains, boats, drones for deliveries. It can offer many times faster internet speeds and real time remote working even for controlling traffic lights or a bulldozer machine. Basically 5G is a technology that brings new technologies and businesses into reality and facilitate all these things. If India wants to purchase elsewhere they can. There are supposed to be certain extra costs and most technologist consider Huawei's 5G to be at least a little bit ahead. I know everyone will have opinions on this and guesses but who cares about that. Basically whatever India chooses, it is up to India to evaluate and choose.

d) Definitely not CCP's idea. They are asking for more enemies? It is up to USA and European influence on India and how Indian leaders respond. Chinese have very little or no influence. So again it is India's own choice and whatever choice we make in life, there are things foolish ones will ignore or pretend to be something it is not. So like consequences of above decisions, you can tell yourself there is nothing to it for example Huawei 5G is garbage fake junk so just buy Ericsson instead. Then if Ericsson product does not live up to expectation and more expensive, the attitude becomes well Huawei is shit anyway or becomes well it's all China's fault. Again we have agency ourselves and for this question, perhaps we should know the real facts which is question A. Then we can go from there and say if it is really CCP pushing into India or something else or maybe nothing at all and just pure drama.

e) Well if we go to war and India wins all the territories it claims, then yes CCP will lose face and Chinese people will demand victory or them to stand down. Will this happen though or I predict if war comes, it will be India says I shoot down 1000 jets and 100000 soldiers and China says something else. Even with question A, India's side is saying totally opposite things. But the good thing about reality is it does not care what lies are said. If India wins and China's lying about shooting down x and gaining territory, then it is still India's real material gain. Same if order is reversed.

 

[vishwambhar]

Chinese Ground Force Need 10 :1 ratio To do Anything in that terrain
Armour-ed conflict Limited.So is Air Offensive

Exactly.... things were totally different in 62..

On contrary, post 1947 India has never been united before. Its not my openion, facts speak for themselves.

1. 303, Loksabha 2019
2. Modi popularity during covid 19

Look how quickly India, a poor country , with her limited resources is doing 1,00,000+ tests per day. While many nations have simoly given up.

Yes considering our population and total Corona cases in country I must say India has done tremendous job....

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

This is why things are unstable right now and no one knows where the ball shall roll. And for this reason too, China is wary of any conflict with India. It will become up to our leaders to discuss things behind closed doors. China doesn't want India to become USA's puppet and certainly doesn't want to waste time and material fighting a long war. All the wars the USA fought after Vietnam have slowly wearing it down in some areas. Of course it has given them a great war machine.

EXACTLY! What you say is even more true considering the fact that China is a superpower that is all set to become the world's FIRST EVER Global hyper power.

 

[hussain0216]

On contrary, post 1947 India has never been united before. Its not my openion, facts speak for themselves.

1. 303, Loksabha 2019
2. Modi popularity during covid 19

Look how quickly India, a poor country , with her limited resources is doing 1,00,000+ tests per day. While many nations have simoly given up.

You are a country of 1.4 billion what's a hundred thousand tests?


And if you haven't seen the poison, hatred and divisions amongst Indians then you are blind

Our problem before used to be the insistence by Indians and Indian Muslims of a secular united India that they were all equal

What you have now is a India that is a communal shithole, a internal migrant crisis, crazy hate for each other and all stuck in one dysfunctional India

Indian hubris has ensured problems with most of its neighbours and internally it's divided

 

[A1Kaid]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...e-in-extra-troops-along-tense-disputed-border

Reports coming in several talks between China and India have failed. Both China and India sent additional troops to LAC, this is an escalation.

India may have to agree to surrender the territory it once held to appease Chinese for peace unless it wants to escalate.

 

[graphican]

I want to discuss the current developing scenario from India's perspective.

Where India stands now?
Why India stands here?
What lies ahead?

To understand these three questions we need to visit the New World Order paradigm.

The idea of New World Order was to create an order of uni-polar world, with one (single) power controlling the world. The rest of the world was to be divided in different categories, as subservient to that single power. Controlling the energy resources, controlling the world trade and economics were the other aspects of this design.

India signed up to it about three decades ago and was given the task of controlling Pakistan and China. In return, she was promised a significant position on the table.

The crunch time has now come.

The powers that had promised India so much, had opened the gates of foreign investments to boost the economy, had offered everything in arms sales; are now demanding the action from India.

For her part, so far, India did what she was meant to do. An attack on Gilgit-Baltistan and neutralising the CPEC were on the cards.

But! suddenly, in the blink of an eye, the game has changed. The mighty dragon has placed the claw at the jugular. A two front war is certain. A three front war (with Nepal) is also a possibility, with loss of a significant fighting force of gurkhas. Sikhs are not too happy wither. Kashmir is boiling already.

My question is: what are the options for India?


@Horus @Agnostic @waz @Dubious @HRKMuSliM @araz @airomerix @Arsalan @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @BHarwana @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Foxtrot Alpha @ghazi52 @Hodor @Irfan Baloch @Imran Khan @Jango @Knuckles @krash @LeGenD @Moonlight @Side-Winder @Socra @Aamir Hussain @Adam_Khan @Ahmet Pasha @Akh1112 @aliyusuf @ARMalik @Angry Easterling @assasiner @Blacklight @crankthatskunk @Cookie Monster @Counter-Errorist @Dil Pakistan @Falcon26 @Flight of falcon @FuturePAF @GriffinsRule @Gryphon @GumNaam @Haris Ali2140 @Hakikat ve Hikmet @HawkEye27 @I S I @Khanivore @khansaheeb @khanasifm @Liquidmetal @loanranger @Maxpane @Mirage Battle Commander @Microsoft @mingle @Mrc @mshan44 @Muhammad Omar @NA71 @Nasr @notorious_eagle @Pakhtoon yum @Pakistani Fighter @PAKISTANFOREVER @PakShaheen79 @Path-Finder @PDFChamp @PWFI @Rafi @Reichsmarschall @Riz @Safriz @Shane @Signalian @Starlord @Stealth @StormBreaker @The Accountant @TheTallGuy @Tank131 @Thorough Pro @TOPGUN @Tps43 @TsAr @Trango Towers @undercover JIX @Verve @ziaulislam @Zulfiqar
@ps3linux
@Verve @PakSword @Beast @beijingwalker @NA71

India is a stupid state, to say the least. They have created problems within through CAA and in Kashmir with literally zero gains for itself. Now two Nuclear powers are sitting on India's head squeezing it from two opposite directions and India can't confront either of the two being in control. The moment Kashmir LOC will open for war, Kashmir liberation movement with receive needful oil to blaze "Indian chita" to its full.

My analysis is we are witnessing last 10 years of existence of Hindustan - Insha'Allah.