India baby girl deaths 'increase'

[Malang]

The thing what Cheetah may be pointing out is that, if it was in Pakistan... Ooh just imagine if it was Pakistan, the whole world would be equating us to minions from hell.
India? As you said it "it is a social problem in India and India needs to deal with it".
It's a non-Muslim's world.

Hello Asim,

The same is applicable to India.. The western news agency tirelessly portray India as a poor and backward country(3rd world - it is by definition since its non aligned)..

Such biases are common.. I remember reading a news article a while back which said people in western natiosn identify India with poverty and Taj Mahal....

Pakistanis on an average have a lower opinion of India than the westerners.. and I won't even come to Hinduism bashing and cow piss... this will invariably blamed upon Hinduism by some Pakistani members.. though the Jatt caste Sikhs are the worst when it comes to this cardinal sin..

So in that its a non-Subcontinental world...

You CAN ignore if you don't have anything to contribute
About India's problem... Well there should be respect metted out to all human beings. Taking lives should never be so easy. Government can do its part by shutting down these rag tag abortion clinics used for gender selection infanticide.

This problem is peculiar to North-West India esp amongst the less educated class .. This region is a male dominated society(cultural and religious reasons).. and unlike people of UP-Bihar they realise the importance of a smaller family(better standard of living etc.).. but not the importance of a girl child..

Put an end to the dowry system. As men, Vinod, you should REFUSE dowry even if its offered. Once the well off people eliminate dowry the poor would see no reason to make it a social status symbol.
I wish you guys the best. It requires hardwork.

Dowry is a complex system.. through centuries of interactions with Europeans and Islamic culture.. Indians (of all religion) have generally accepted dowry system as a part of their religion.. It also fits in with the Indian family tradition practises..

In villages dowry is generally a given thing but its not as bad or the demands as exorbitant (may be a cycle or mobile in dowry etc).

In the cities esp with the lower middle class its a big problem ....

Amongst the upper middle class and educated class its generally a mere formality...

PS: I plan to never work and a marry a rich girl.. what would I do if I refuse dowry ;-)

 

[Flintlock]

^^^^Erm...so the portrayal of India as poor and backward has nothing to do with the fact that India is, um, poor and backward?

 

[Malang]

Vinod
its a pitty Indians want to beat any topic against Pakistan and China to death on the forum but when it comes to India you guys even the old chap resort to cheap shots.
but anyway
The obsession in India for having a boy led to killing of hunderds of innocent unborn baby girls in India among the Hindus.
The women fetuses are found in heaps of garbage in India.
the fact is not hidden from anyone.
I wonder if it has to do the centuries-old Hindu tradition of killing the baby girls by burrying them alive in the Arab world.
Indeed its a new form of that tradition.
May God blessed the baby girls

Salam Janaji.

This is not a problem with Hindus or Hinduism.. the worst sinners of this crime are Sikhs.. the fact is people generally prefer smaller families and in that smaller families a non male child is an issue with certain tribes(for eg. Jatts, Rajputs etc.) who are about as Hindu as Shoaib Akhtar is Muslim ;-)...

as for Arabs and Hindu connection, Can you extol on it?

 

[Malang]

^^^^Erm...so the portrayal of India as poor and backward has nothing to do with the fact that India is, um, poor and backward?

People cannot look beyond poverty and backwardness... They can't believe India is doing good.. A typical response would be its the 1% elite rest 99% live in poverty.. etc. etc...

Frankly India is not too poor, nor too backward... certain sections or people of the society are and this is always highlighted...

The blacks were being persecuted for eg. in US uptil 60-70s.. and in India they had their dynasties and were looked upto.. (Habshi Dynasty) .. Parsis have been in India for millenia w/o incident etc. when they were persecuted by their own brethren etc..

 

[Vinod2070]

Good to see you back Malang.

Hope you are doing good.

 

[Flintlock]

People cannot look beyond poverty and backwardness... They can't believe India is doing good.. A typical response would be its the 1% elite rest 99% live in poverty.. etc. etc...

Well the ratio is closer to 30-70, but it still doesn't change the overall picture.

But I get your point. The Image of India has changed. Hell, we are all contributing to it by opening Gurgaon threads and all that.

My argument is that India really was a very poor country till very recently, so naturally the west would have that impression. Nothing to do with Non-Aligned Movement.

 

[Malang]

Well the ratio is closer to 30-70, but it still doesn't change the overall picture.

Which statistics are you relying upon?
80% of India's labour is outside the gambit of statistics..
India has a massive underground economy..
India's gini co-efficient is pretty normal..

Let me give you an example.. if you want to buy a piece of land..
the registration will reflect a tenth of the value.. the balance is all black dealings.. on top of that twice as much as the registry amount is given as bribes in some cases...

A poor farmer with 2 bigha of land is a "lakhpati"... in most parts of India..

But I get your point. The Image of India has changed. Hell, we are all contributing to it by opening Gurgaon threads and all that.
My argument is that India really was a very poor country till very recently, so naturally the west would have that impression. Nothing to do with Non-Aligned Movement.

India was a poor country thanks to the stupid policies.. and 3rd world refers to nations not with US or USSR... AFAIK... and they were generally poor at the time...

 

[Malang]

Good to see you back Malang.

Hope you are doing good.

Yep I am great.. how about you?? I have some free time over the weekend so though will drop in..

 

[Vinod2070]

I am good too.

Just served a month long sentence....

 

[Awesome]

This problem is peculiar to North-West India esp amongst the less educated class .. This region is a male dominated society(cultural and religious reasons).. and unlike people of UP-Bihar they realise the importance of a smaller family(better standard of living etc.).. but not the importance of a girl child..

Girls are responsibility in our culture upon the men, all things considered.

All brothers have picked up a fight or two, because of a snarky comment about their sisters at some point in their lives. Fathers have to earn enough money to pay for exhorbitant marriages.

Then the dowry system.

Dowry is a complex system.. through centuries of interactions with Europeans and Islamic culture.. Indians (of all religion) have generally accepted dowry system as a part of their religion.. It also fits in with the Indian family tradition practises..

Dowry by no means is an Islamic thing and I doubt it has its roots in Western tradition either.

It is largely an Indian thing seeped into the Indian subcontinent all over. For example expecting something from the bride is foreign in Arabic customs, rather it is obligatory for the men's side to be giving dowry (known as mehr), to the woman.

Of course marriage payments have their origins in every culture and in antiquity, but much like today it was a thing of the the royalty and the ****** rich. It was a way to perhaps show off.

It is a mandatory show-off. I've seen many guys in my family refused to accept dowry however the bride's family strongly insists upon accepting it since they don't want anyone to talk.

I imagine the poor have similar notions as well, but they just can't afford it.

In villages dowry is generally a given thing but its not as bad or the demands as exorbitant (may be a cycle or mobile in dowry etc).

Thats just the stuff on top. What about the gold, the Sarees, the new clothes for family members, the TV, the new bed? List goes on.

In the cities esp with the lower middle class its a big problem ....

Civilized folks in Pakistan usually term it as a "laanat" (damnation).

 

[Malang]

Are you dissing Indians in isolation or Indian subcontinentals in general?

Girls are responsibility in our culture upon the men, all things considered. All brothers have picked up a fight or two, because of a snarky comment about their sisters at some point in their lives.

Rather than responsibility it is considered possessivenes and chauvinism..

if girls were responsibility in "our" culture, then why does Janaji prefer wearing Burkhas when passing through certain towns?
why is "our" culture male-dominated??

Fathers have to earn enough money to pay for exhorbitant marriages
Then the dowry system.

I don't think the fathers toil only for marriages of their daughters... and I believe have some sense of building their asset base and saving some for the rainy day..

if an only child, girl is marrying into a richer family.. a beyond the mean wedding may not be uncommon for example.. under then that I am pretty sure people try to make their wedding their memorable not try to break the bank..

dowry system? its neither obligatory nor required.. it depends on the brides family, if the grooms family demands for something then that bride's family is stupid to marry into that family..

The laws in India are generally very pro-woman and its not rare to find men being falsely arrested for dowry etc. cases..

Dowry by no means is an Islamic thing and I doubt it has its roots in Western tradition either. It is largely an Indian thing seeped into the Indian subcontinent all over. For example expecting something from the bride is foreign in Arabic customs, rather it is obligatory for the men's side to be giving dowry (known as mehr), to the woman.

haven't heard of dowry system being an "Indian" thing.... its not mentioned in the scriptures nor in historical texts.. its a newer invention..

Mehr like custom is also mentioned in Kautilya Arthashashtra where a voluntary gift is given to the bride by the groom's family..

Of course marriage payments have their origins in every culture and in antiquity, but much like today it was a thing of the the royalty and the ****** rich. It was a way to perhaps show off.
It is a mandatory show-off. I've seen many guys in my family refused to accept dowry however the bride's family strongly insists upon accepting it since they don't want anyone to talk.

Voluntary gifts are okay... demands are not... "doolan hee dhehj hai" bride is the dowry..

I imagine the poor have similar notions as well, but they just can't afford it.

They do whatever they can afford.. for eg.. my servant who was recently married.. gave the girl quite a lot of jewellery a cell etc. since she was quite the catch and he didn't want to lose her to other suitors..

in the bania community the opposite happens, there "bids" on eligible grooms... an iit and iim grad will probably get several crore worth dowry..

its a peculiar phenomena to every community and then on their class.. Biharis from grooms side try to outdo each other in giving the maximum shagan..

The black income culture in India have made weddings the only way to show off, a swanky car, a posh residence attracts the authorities.. though things are changing....

Thats just the stuff on top. What about the gold, the Sarees, the new clothes for family members, the TV, the new bed? List goes on.

the groom also spends.. the number of functions are equally divided and the grooms family is not unknown to shower gifts and buy homes etc.. so it goes both ways...

Civilized folks in Pakistan usually term it as a "laanat" (damnation).

if you have it flaunt it.. don't curse it.. I love attending weddings...

PS: dowry system is not much of a problem IMO....

 

[Cheetah786]

If it was in Pakistan as usual Islam would have gone on trial. And Pakistanis all over the world would have been held responsible

Thats exactly is my point if it was in any Muslim country all hell would have broken by now and Islam is this and Islam is that would have been every news source.

And seeing how most Indians are getting upset with this iam sure they to realize when there close friends keep singing the same tune about Muslims it gets annoying. so next time my Indian friends wanna call Pakistanis terrorist with the help of there friends i hope they realize just cause it didn't make the world news they aren't perfect.

 

[Flintlock]

One must differentiate between the symptom and the cause.

Dowry is just a symptom, not the cause. The real reason behind this is the perception that males are superior to (or more useful than) women, hence male children are desirable over female children.

 

[Vinod2070]

I suggest the merger of this thread with:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/theology/11189-female-foeticide.html

May help avoid the reinvention of the wheel. And give a chance to members to look at what has already been discussed.

 

[Spring Onion]

Salam Janaji.

This is not a problem with Hindus or Hinduism.. the worst sinners of this crime are Sikhs.. the fact is people generally prefer smaller families and in that smaller families a non male child is an issue with certain tribes(for eg. Jatts, Rajputs etc.) who are about as Hindu as Shoaib Akhtar is Muslim ;-)...

as for Arabs and Hindu connection, Can you extol on it?

Walakum Assalam Malang


now as far keeping small familes well i dont consider this argument worth buying and a reason for killing the baby girls.
If one wants to have small family there are family planning option.

the killing of unborn baby girls in India must have some reasons and be it social status, poverty or any other but it is definetly not the desire to have a small family.

If it was then why they do not kill unborn boy babies ?

As far the prevailing of sitauation among certain tribes in India is concerned well if you can come up with authentic sources which claims that Sikhs are in the practice