India | A Democracy Soaked In Blood.

[vK_man]

You ladies come over here, hurl insults at us all the time, abuse our country, our people, our leaders and our religion and desire that we should simply bow in obedience. It is not going to happen mademoiselles. We will hit back and respond - of-course while remaining within the forum rules.

Your JCO Bana was a brave soldier. I have no qualms about acknowledging that. But if you think that there are whimpies here on this side - you all are mistaken. We don't underestimate or overestimate our enemies.

May I ask where were the brave JCO Bana like Sikh worriers when the Indian Army invaded and destroyed the sacred Sri Harmandir Sahib. My ancestors living near jullundhar saved a great guru of yours from the mughals - yes we were Muslims then as well. But where were your Sikh warriors when your holiest place was desecrated.

This is what this OpEd writer is probably saying. Instead of releasing your Sikh anger on us Pakistanis, learn to safeguard what is yours in a land that belongs to you.

The Hindus dont even accept that Sikhs have a separate religion. They say that it is just an off-shoot of Hinduism. Two Sikhs killed Indra Gandhi - Over three thousand Sikhs were killed and burnt alive only in Delhi alone. The terrorist Modi from Gujarat did the same with Muslims. They are doing the same in Kashmir, in North East India and in many other places because the minorities are not Hindu and they don't have a place in Indianized Kingdom.

You think you don't have a Stalin - who is Modi of Gujarat. For those who don't know Russians hate Stalin for killing millions of Russians because he had the power. Have your Stalins and kill as many Indians that you want to, because you have a democracy soaked in blood of your own people.

Stalin is one of most respected guys in Russia Today,Sir. And Stalin was responsible for 700,000 deaths not the millions of fake deaths the west claims and was deliberate propaganda .Modi is no where close to what Stalin achieved.
Joseph Stalin voted Third Best Russian | NowPublic News Coverage

 

[Jinx1]

Ladies ..... Ladies, we are discussing India here and not Pakistan. While explaining the Indian situation you start trashing Pakistan and then you start saying things against our religion. This is your problem. Instead of blaming others please sort out your own problems. See, others don't kill your own people as much as you kill your own through oppressive use of your security forces.

In Canada, people in Quebec Province speak French and they want to form an independent country. Every now and then they hold a referendum and vote for it. They have so far been defeated with narrow margins. Yet they don't kill the people who want to secede from Canada.

Why don't you guys allow such referendums in all those Indian States where people want to secede like civilized people. You don't do this and instead use oppression. This further fuels the freedom movements and insurgencies result. Whatever the level of violence, these movements have increased in number and the hatred against India grows by the day.

Please stop blaming others for the mistakes you commit, and invite Stalins who you say killed 700,000 Russians to make Russia powerful. WoW what an argument.

 

[Sashan]

Well, the number of such movement was quite high during early period but has gone down a lot due to democracy and federalism.
Previously too much power was centered at delhi but now state capitals are the centres of power. With more devaluation of power to villages, such movements will go down.

A very rational posting.

Written by Khan A. Sufyan is a Lahore-based defence analyst....

Enough said .........

I read his other articles briefly. His analysis were well-researched and very sensible.

 

[Jinx1]

I read his other articles briefly. His analysis were well-researched and very sensible.

I agree with you. His earlier pieces were pretty good.

The current one is also very good where he highlights a perpetual problem which India faces. And if treated in the manner as it is being treated, it is bound to get out of hand - that is if has already not gotten out of hand.

 

[Jinx1]

Dr. Subramanian Swamy is the President of a well known political party known as Janata Party. And this is what he says about one such genocide. This is just tip of the iceberg. This has happened again and again and again. The Indians can keep on blaming others for the genocides carried out by their own. I don’t think this is a mere fanboy thing!

Hashimpura massacre and PC?s role in it

Hashimpura massacre and PC’s role in it
14 Jul 2012

Author: Subramanian Swamy (president of the Janata Party)

Excerpts from the piece …………..

During the early hours of May 22, 1987, trucks of the Uttar Pradesh Provincial Armed Constabulary (PAC) arrived in a mixed Hindu-Muslim Meerut mohalla named Hashimpura, populated by labourers and weavers. This mohalla was peaceful despite protracted communal clashes in Meerut since April 1987. The opening of the locks of the Babri Masjid by the Rajiv Gandhi government was the point of conflagration.

Nineteen PAC men with their commanding officer, had been ordered to surround the Hashimpura mohalla, to wake up the residents and then segregate them as Hindus and Muslims. Thereafter, they separated Muslim women and elderly men from the youth. Of these youth, the PAC constables picked young boys aged between 15 and 35 years, and ordered them to board two of their trucks.

The trucks then drove 20 Km to Gang Neher, a canal near Murad Nagar and to Hindon canal. At the two places, the youth were ordered to disembark one by one. As each young man got down, he was shot in the head by a PAC jawan, and his body kicked into the canal. Only three survived, one of them was to die later. In all, 42 were killed in that pre-dawn, execution-style massacre.

A few days later on May 26, 1987, Syed Shahabuddin, then a Janata Party MP, called me up in a highly emotionally charged voice to explain what had happened and asked me to do something.

I therefore visited Hashimpura and spoke to the residents. I took some of the Hindus aside and asked for confirmation of what Shahabuddin had narrated to me. They confirmed the account. I also visited Gang Neher and saw the tell tale marks of blood and flesh, and also inhaled the stench from the rotting blood clots.

By then I was in a shock. I thought atrocities in the 1975-77 Emergency was the rock bottom to which the modern Indian nation could sink in terms of State sponsored terror. But this was right out of the Nazi Holocaust. ...

I therefore I called up Shahabuddin and promised that I would do something. At that time the Prime Minister was Rajiv Gandhi and who was also my friend, and therefore I had unlimited access to meet him.

Thus a meeting between Rajiv and me took place. He of course knew about the matter. So I urged him to set up an inquiry. He told me he would, but his tone was not assuring. Several months passed but nothing happened.

Then Shahabuddin and I decided that the Janata Party would launch an agitation. By then Chandrashekhar had handed over the party presidentship to Ajit Singh, but both were supportive. A number protest meetings and a long walk from Hashimpura to Vijay Chowk in New Delhi took place. But there was no response from Rajiv on our demand except sympathy for our cause.

By then officials, Home Minister Buta Singh and even the UP CM, Vir Bahadur Singh. began speaking to me in confidence about what happened. They said that Rajiv will not order an inquiry because the then Minister of State for Home P Chidambaram (the current Indian Home Minister) was the one whose idea it was to “teach a lesson to Muslims, as Congress did with the Sikhs”. So Rajiv feared that his name too would be dragged in if an inquiry is held.

I learnt on May 18, 1987 that Chidambaram, along with Vir Bahadur Singh, conducted an aerial survey of Hashimpura, Malliana, and other riot-affected areas of Meerut. This the government confirmed on the floor of Rajya Sabha, when I had raised the matter.

However, the Government went on the offensive when I stated in the Rajya Sabha that soon after Chidambaram had held a closed door meeting in Meerut of officials and PAC officers. The MP of Meerut, Mohsina Kidwai, should have been invited to this meeting, but instead she was put on de facto house arrest in the Dak Bungalow to prevent her from turning up. There, at that meeting, Chidambaram (the current Indian Home Minister) gave the genocide order: “Kill about 50 Muslim youth”.

Irrespective of the religious colour of this genocide, we cannot allow the Hashimpura genocide slip into oblivion. For the sake of the nation’s pride in democracy, we must avenge this State — sponsored genocide.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Pakistan telling India about democracy is the same as India telling Pakistan about the hudood ordinance or military junta!

As to the blood soaked part, only recently pakistani ex general from the 1971 war has come clean on the genetic engineering through rape and slaughter of millions by pak fauj in east pakistan. So there we recognize pakistan's absolute authority and vast experience on the subject.

 

[Nassr]

@Jinx1
Good post buddy. It amply exemplifies what Sufyan Khan has already stated in his piece. I think it may - just may, open the eyes of Indian posters here now that one of their own, a well known political leader, says the same thing.

Dr. Subramanian Swamy says that it is State Sponsored Genocide by India against her own people. What a shame indeed.

Pakistan telling India about democracy is the same as India telling Pakistan about the hudood ordinance or military junta!

As to the blood soaked part, only recently pakistani ex general from the 1971 war has come clean on the genetic engineering through rape and slaughter of millions by pak fauj in east pakistan. So there we recognize pakistan's absolute authority and vast experience on the subject.

Sir, we are discussing India and not Pakistan.

You ought to think again when you accuse others for your own doings. Your own political leader is accusing your government of State Sponsored Genocide. Oh well, the poor guys massacred were Indian Muslims - it doesn't matter to you does it.

I don't think so, as Indian Democracy Is Soaked In The Blood Of Her Own People.

 

[Sashan]

@Jinx1
Good post buddy. It amply exemplifies what Sufyan Khan has already stated in his piece. I think it may - just may, open the eyes of Indian posters here now that one of their own, a well known political leader, says the same thing.

Dr. Subramanian Swamy says that it is State Sponsored Genocide by India against her own people. What a shame indeed.



Sir, we are discussing India and not Pakistan.

You ought to think again when you accuse others for your own doings. Your own political leader is accusing your government of State Sponsored Genocide. Oh well, the poor guys massacred were Indian Muslims - it doesn't matter to you does it.

I don't think so, as Indian Democracy Is Soaked In The Blood Of Her Own People.

No one denies the Hashimpura massacre and many Indians are all for justice to the victims. As for Dr. Swamy supporting the justice for the victims, you should know Dr. Swamy is slammed by many pseudo secularists as hindutva supporter for his extreme political views. In short, that defines Indian democracy for you. India as a democracy is pretty lenient but when it comes to voices of secession, the crackdown will be brutal and innocent people get affected as collateral damage. Many Indians like Swamy irrespective of their views do not condone such behavior and try to sweep it under the carpet. Else the author who had written the article will not know about what is going on.

As for the author quoting almost 50% of the land not under Indian government control, it is a fig of imagination on his part which shows the lack of research similar to what he has done in many of his other articles. Maoism is the most severe threat to India but if Maoism is such an extreme threat to India, Indian army would have been unleased by now instead of police forces fighting the battle with Maoists.

 

[vK_man]

No one denies the Hashimpura massacre and many Indians are all for justice to the victims. As for Dr. Swamy supporting the justice for the victims, you should know Dr. Swamy is slammed by many pseudo secularists as hindutva supporter for his extreme political views. In short, that defines Indian democracy for you. India as a democracy is pretty lenient but when it comes to voices of secession, the crackdown will be brutal and innocent people get affected as collateral damage. Many Indians like Swamy irrespective of their views do not condone such behavior and try to sweep it under the carpet. Else the author who had written the article will not know about what is going on.

As for the author quoting almost 50% of the land not under Indian government control, it is a fig of imagination on his part which shows the lack of research similar to what he has done in many of his other articles. Maoism is the most severe threat to India but if Maoism is such an extreme threat to India, Indian army would have been unleased by now instead of police forces fighting the battle with Maoists.

unleashing the army will make the situation way worse.The tribal revolt which the govt loves to dub as maoism is very popular due to the govt's insanely corrupt and stupid mining policies and corporate bribery of politicans and disregarding the tribal way of life.The simple solution of handing mining rights to the tribals will solve the issue as the govt has proven too corrupt and has disregarded the tribal ways of life and forcibly trying to drive them out so that their land can be exploited by the likes of Vedenta.

The only solution to this:
1) give the tribals mining rights(similiar policy in USA where ownership of mineral rights is private)
2) respect the tribal way of life.

this will dissipate the tribal rebellion.Anything else will make it way way worse. and yes 40% of land is naxal yellow zone. Which govt has only partial control.

 

[Sashan]

unleashing the army will make the situation way worse.The tribal revolt which the govt loves to dub as maoism is very popular due to the govt's insanely corrupt and stupid mining policies and corporate bribery of politicans and disregarding the tribal way of life.The simple solution of handing mining rights to the tribals will solve the issue as the govt has proven too corrupt and has disregarded the tribal ways of life and forcibly trying to drive them out so that their land can be exploited by the likes of Vedenta.

The only solution to this:
1) give the tribals mining rights(similiar policy in USA where ownership of mineral rights is private)
2) respect the tribal way of life.

this will dissipate the tribal rebellion.Anything else will make it way way worse.

The highlighted portion is the very reason why Indian army is not sitting there in the Maoist affected regions. I agree that tribals were exploited which made these Maoist leaders from outside sit there and cause trouble. If the 2 points you highlighted is the solution, so be it.

 

[Nassr]

No one denies the Hashimpura massacre and many Indians are all for justice to the victims. As for Dr. Swamy supporting the justice for the victims, you should know Dr. Swamy is slammed by many pseudo secularists as hindutva supporter for his extreme political views. In short, that defines Indian democracy for you. India as a democracy is pretty lenient but when it comes to voices of secession, the crackdown will be brutal and innocent people get affected as collateral damage. Many Indians like Swamy irrespective of their views do not condone such behavior and try to sweep it under the carpet. Else the author who had written the article will not know about what is going on.

As for the author quoting almost 50% of the land not under Indian government control, it is a fig of imagination on his part which shows the lack of research similar to what he has done in many of his other articles. Maoism is the most severe threat to India but if Maoism is such an extreme threat to India, Indian army would have been unleased by now instead of police forces fighting the battle with Maoists.

Let me quote from this article

Hashimpura massacre and PC

I learnt on May 18, 1987 that Chidambaram, along with Vir Bahadur Singh, conducted an aerial survey of Hashimpura, Malliana, and other riot-affected areas of Meerut. This the government confirmed on the floor of Rajya Sabha, when I had raised the matter.

However, the Government went on the offensive when I stated in the Rajya Sabha that soon after Chidambaram had held a closed door meeting in Meerut of officials and PAC officers. The MP of Meerut, Mohsina Kidwai, should have been invited to this meeting, but instead she was put on de facto house arrest in the Dak Bungalow to prevent her from turning up. There, at that meeting, Chidambaram gave the genocide order: “Kill about 50 Muslim youth”.

The Hashimpura massacre occurred in UP and was not part of a secessionist movement. Yet, the PCs carried out the massacre on the apparent orders of Chidambaram to “Kill about 50 Muslim youth”. This counters your theory that India as a democracy is pretty lenient and only brutalizes secessionists. What about the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat by Modi – even Vajpai was shocked. And many other such horrifying incidents elsewhere in India.

Even you people should understand that the brutalities are symptomatic in Indian system which Sufyan Khan identifies as neo-colonial attitude. Or is it to teach a lesson to the Indian minorities that we have the power and we will brutalize you, even to the extent of carrying out a genocide unless they fall in line and live like slaves of Hidutva ruled majority.

I agree, Subramanian Swamy is well known for his views and I was surprised by his article, which may have political undertones. But that’s not the point. It is routine and massive human rights violations that are being committed by Indian security forces against their own people which creates doubts about the veracity of India being a tolerant multi-ethnic and multi-cultural and multi religious entity. And there is too much evidence that it is not.

Regarding the possibility of 40-50% of India being covered by these insurgencies is a moot point. Lets agree to disagree on this.

 

[Sashan]

Let me quote from this article

Hashimpura massacre and PC

I learnt on May 18, 1987 that Chidambaram, along with Vir Bahadur Singh, conducted an aerial survey of Hashimpura, Malliana, and other riot-affected areas of Meerut. This the government confirmed on the floor of Rajya Sabha, when I had raised the matter.

However, the Government went on the offensive when I stated in the Rajya Sabha that soon after Chidambaram had held a closed door meeting in Meerut of officials and PAC officers. The MP of Meerut, Mohsina Kidwai, should have been invited to this meeting, but instead she was put on de facto house arrest in the Dak Bungalow to prevent her from turning up. There, at that meeting, Chidambaram gave the genocide order: “Kill about 50 Muslim youth”.

The Hashimpura massacre occurred in UP and was not part of a secessionist movement. Yet, the PCs carried out the massacre on the apparent orders of Chidambaram to “Kill about 50 Muslim youth”. This counters your theory that India as a democracy is pretty lenient and only brutalizes secessionists. What about the massacre of Muslims in Gujarat by Modi – even Vajpai was shocked. And many other such horrifying incidents elsewhere in India.

Even you people should understand that the brutalities are symptomatic in Indian system which Sufyan Khan identifies as neo-colonial attitude. Or is it to teach a lesson to the Indian minorities that we have the power and we will brutalize you, even to the extent of carrying out a genocide unless they fall in line and live like slaves of Hidutva ruled majority.

I agree, Subramanian Swamy is well known for his views and I was surprised by his article, which may have political undertones. But that’s not the point. It is routine and massive human rights violations that are being committed by Indian security forces against their own people which creates doubts about the veracity of India being a tolerant multi-ethnic and multi-cultural and multi religious entity. And there is too much evidence that it is not.

Regarding the possibility of 40-50% of India being covered by these insurgencies is a moot point. Lets agree to disagree on this.

Here is something I posted in response to the news yesterday in another thread.

Hashimpura maybe the handiwork of PAC but I do not think Chiddu is involved in the massacre. Swamy has been going against Chiddu in a dogged manner in 2G case as well this one. Swamy is a brilliant mind who was the brain behind the 1991 reforms though MM took the credit. He was instrumental in 2G case as well. This being the case, he could not succeed against Chiddu which only shows he has a vendetta against him.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/member...slims-p-chidambaram-s-role.html#ixzz20hgUwons

 

[Nassr]

Here is something I posted in response to the news yesterday in another thread.

Hashimpura maybe the handiwork of PAC but I do not think Chiddu is involved in the massacre. Swamy has been going against Chiddu in a dogged manner in 2G case as well this one. Swamy is a brilliant mind who was the brain behind the 1991 reforms though MM took the credit. He was instrumental in 2G case as well. This being the case, he could not succeed against Chiddu which only shows he has a vendetta against him.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/member...slims-p-chidambaram-s-role.html#ixzz20hgUwons

Look, I already said that swamy's views may have political undertones. That is not in contention here.

What surprises me is the matter of fact way in which such massacres are taken. And there are so many known examples of such massacres having been undertaken again and again with quite apparent Indian government nod. Lets see how long does it last. The oppression always ends in counter oppression and almost always ends in some form of revolt. The brutalities committed by Taliban in Afghanistan is one such example.

 

[Sashan]

Look, I already said that swamy's views may have political undertones. That is not in contention here.

What surprises me is the matter of fact way in which such massacres are taken. And there are so many known examples of such massacres having been undertaken again and again with quite apparent Indian government nod. Lets see how long does it last. The oppression always ends in counter oppression and almost always ends in some form of revolt. The brutalities committed by Taliban in Afghanistan is one such example.

Massacres have happened in India and there is no denying the fact. But let me assure you, majority Indians are not proud of this and they want justice. India is different in the aspect that post-incident voices are not suppressed. And the voices are very shrill so nothing can be hidden as well. So there is no opportunity for revolt.

 

[Nassr]

Massacres have happened in India and there is no denying the fact. But let me assure you, majority Indians are not proud of this and they want justice. India is different in the aspect that post-incident voices are not suppressed. And the voices are very shrill so nothing can be hidden as well. So there is no opportunity for revolt.

Sir, you surprise me at times. It is not the majority Indians who are massacred, it is the minorities and some others who want to secede and are fighting for secession. These people are in majority in their own areas and not overall in India. The Hashimpura massacre happened in 1987 and what has happened since then - shrill voices of Swamy - have a heart.

The Iron Lady, who is on hunger strike since last 12 years and then what! I can continue and continue naming a lot of such known incidents. Discovery of 2000 mass graves. Sir in which country such massive and large scale atrocities are committed by their security forces - name one. Swamy quotes Nazis. So should we compare the Indian Army and other security forces with Nazi forces.

Sir, you people need to understand that such massacres and genocides can not be carried out in perpetuity.