Ilyushin 400, offers a cost effective Option for PIA

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well there is international politics involved in sales of craft it has nothing to do with capabilities of the plane it self.

It's one thing to say PIA was pressurized but , for people of PIA in higher ranks to make such none-sense decisions is worthy of Prison time. (These kind of decisions are punished in China by Hanging or Imprisonment)

The issue is not that Government of Pakistan did not give PIA funds , Government gave them 2.8 Billion , but instead of getting 60 Brand new Planes with Life time of 25 years from a reputable country like Russia , we purchase a mere 7 planes.

Colossal overlook on judgement

Due to bad judgement (No one has gone to prison for it yet), now they are stuck with Wet/Dry lease schemes , selling off assets or loosing routes. Worse of all crying crocodile tears over having no planes.

Safe plan would have been get your 60 Brand new planes (for same money) , start making profits and flying in and out (On Time and improve your international Reputation). Secure the company for 25 years with 60 brand new planes (No loans involved full purchase)

People would care about profits and loss if it was run like business entity but its not that is why they opted for "Expensive" option rather then "realistic" one to maximize profits

The issue is not Resources / Money , the issue is purchasing and making decisions wrong ones , for short term (kick backs)

If the management cared about retired employees or current employees it would have done immediate steps to get sixty (60 comparable) planes for same amount of money.

 

[SHAMK9]

PK isn't getting a380 or ilyushin 400 period.

 

[Armstrong]

PK isn't getting a380 or ilyushin 400 period.

Please I want an Ilyushin !

Please.....please....please !

Wait this 'Ilyushin' is the name of a beautiful ballerina from Moscow....right ?

Or are you talking about something else ?

 

[T-123456]

Please I want an Ilyushin !

Please.....please....please !

Wait this 'Ilyushin' is the name of a beautiful ballerina from Moscow....right ?

Or are you talking about something else ?

 

[airmarshal]

Russian planes require more maintenance and their customer service is total shit. Dont compare Russian Il-96 to 777.

777 has technology and performance very few planes including Airbus 330-340 series cant match, what to talk about Russians!!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

The question is not what is Technically Advanced aircraft.

We know Boeing & Airbus lead the pack. However the question is what can PIA get for their buck or money had they spent it wisely

THE MONEY BELONGED TO PEOPLE , if PIA was private company who cares , if it goes makes losses?

a) Only 5-7 planes by Boeing for 2.8 Billion Dollars , with fuel efficiency ?lol
b) 60+ Strong Fleet with Ilyushin-96 for same 2.8 Billion dollars.

For every 1.4 Million made by 7 Boeing 777 Planes , 60 Russian planes would have generated 598 Million dollars (Explained in earlier posts the full calculation and explained fully why the marginal fuel economy argument is not that influential - those marketing gimmicks work on Parliamentarians)


Pakistan got the Boeing planes in 2006

What did PIA do between 2006 to 2014 ?
2006 -> Reported Losses ( Excuse : We have no planes)
2007-> Reported Losses ,Received European Ban ( Excuse : No planes or engine broke down)
2008-> Reported Losses ( Excuse : We have no planes, planes not working , late, bad)
2009 -> Reported Losses ( Excuse : We have no planes, issues with engines, repairs)
2010 -> Reported losses ( Excuse : We have no planes, delays, missed flights, bad days)
2011-> Reported losses ( Excuse : We have no planes, no money , workers lazy)
2012 -> Reported losses ( Excuse : We have no planes, people collecting pay checks)
2013 -> Reported losses ( Excuse : We have no planes)

Now imagine in 2002 , they placed order for 60 Brand new Russian Planes same capacity How much money would PIA have generated from 2006 - 2014??? Instead of putting order for Boeing and wasting Pakistani funds

Just imagine Fleet , size of 80 planes in PIA with Russian plane purchase
2006 ->Profits 500 Million Dollars (No Bailout) -> 150 Million Tax Collected
2007-> Profits 500 Million Dollars (No European Ban) -> 150 Million Tax Collected
2008-> Profits 500 Million Dollars (No Bailout)-> 150 Million Tax Collected
2009 ->Profits 500 Million Dollars (No Bailout) -> 150 Million Tax Collected
2010 ->Profits 500 Million Dollars (No wet/dry lease) -> 150 Million Tax Collected
2011->Profits 500 Million Dollars (No Bailout) -> 150 Million Tax Collected
2012 ->Profits 500 Million Dollars (No Bailout) -> 150 Million Tax Collected
2013 ->Profits 500 Million Dollars (No Bailout) -> 150 Million Tax Collected

Total Tax Payable to Pakistan = 1.2 Billion Dollars

In 2014 , PIA would have generated 4.0 Billion US Dollars in Profits
which ironically is same number/amount of money we begged IMF for to bail our economy

Strangely now IMF with that loan will force PIA to close or sell off

Pakistan's whole economy gets bail out of 4 Billion , and PIA could have generated and saved that much in their private Bank!!


Why because they put all their money into getting few planes vs 60 Strong fleet and this
Pakistani Foreign Exchange & Poor people of Pakistan have to take IMF loan to fix the issues from the mess

Possible Benefits that could have occurred

a) PIA problems fixed till Year 2030 at least with 60 planes.
b) No more yearly "Funding" of PIA from National budget.
c) For once the employees hired for work would actually do some work with 60 planes to maintain.
d) PIA flights would leave and arrive on Time in Europe and with brand new planes there would have been no objections.


Now, if there was some kick backs involved , to sign a deal with Boeing for mere 2-3 planes , up to 9 now
we have to see.

But as a business decision it was a very bad decision for PIA.

By all means if PIA has funding for 40 Billion dollars they can go ahead and by Boeing its a known platform but the problem is
PIA is really bankrupt and sooner or later they need to stop shedding tears and peaceful TANK UP or get sold to private owners who can buy planes for Low cost and improve fleet numbers

Cockpit looks great

As far as European standards are concerned

Avionics

The airplane has the following systems installed, providing compliance with ICAO
International Civil Aviation Organization recommendations and Eurocontrol requirements:

• Integrated communication and navigation control panel and flight management system
• Upgraded EFIS with LCD indicators
• Inertial navigation system
• Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System
• TCAS
• SELCAL
• Weather radar
• ACARS with satellite communication.
• Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorder

The only thing missing was no Kickbacks

2.8 Billion would have given PIA 60 , brand new 400 passenger capacity planes
but they decided to get 7 planes with Kick backs

I mean if it was me in charge I would have put all people involved in wasting 2.8 Billion in Jail and not getting 60 Brand new planes



If a mechanic , that repairs Honda , comes and tells me he can't figure out a Toyota , I would say he is not a good mechanic , or knows about cars.

Same with PIA if they say they can't repair Ilyushin because , they like repairing old Boeing planes tough luck they need to train new engineer force

It's called Training your engineering team to learn new System and for that you hire new engineers !!! (More politics in PIA here)

For every 1 Boeing , Pakistan could get 7-8 of Ilyushin-96 platform comparable passenger capacity planes

Plus lets not forget its Russia

• Who were first to be in Space
  
• First to land anything on Moon
• First to Space walk (Human)
• First to land anything on Venus and no one has ever landed on it and survived except russians
  
• First to launch a satellite in Space

 

[PakPrinciples]

IL-96

range: 12,000 km (6,479 nmi)
pax regular: 312
fuel burn: 11.18 l/km
Speed: 900KM/h
price: 50,000,000 (50 Million Dollars)
Freight: 13.235

777-200ER

Range: 10.730-16.870
pax regular: 370
fuel burn: 10.34l/km
Speed: 890 km/h
price: 320,000,000 (320 Million Dollars)
Freight:17.810

It burns more fuel than the 777 !!!!!!!!

Bro, the Boeing 777-200ER is the superior jet. You are looking at this from a single perspective (the initial purchase price) instead of taking everything else into consideration.

To start we need to clarify a few things because a lot of the information you presented appears to be wrong based on Ilyushin and Boeing's own websites.

The Boeing 777-200ER has a single class carrying capacity of 440 while the IL-96-300 (the version of this model they advertise as a passenger jet) has a single class carrying capacity of only 300 (so right off the bat the Boeing 777-200ER can carry 140 more people per flight). Furthermore, the fuel consumption of the Boeing 777-200ER is 11.96 liters per KM versus the IL-96-300 which consumes 11.11 liters per KM

Boeing: 777-200/-200ER Technical Characteristics
http://www.ilyushin.org/en/aircrafts/passenger/1174/

Now I couldn't find the price for the IL-96-300 advertised anywhere on the Ilyushin website (so I will assume what you pulled is correct) but Boeing actually lists the 777-200ER at an average cost of $261.5 million in 2013 not $320 million (though prices can change depending on the options you get) as listed on Wikipedia or wherever you pulled the information from (I cant imagine it costs almost $60 million to deliver unless the additional cost has something to do with providing technical support and repairs for however many years).

Boeing: Jet Prices

According to the IATA (International Air Transport Association) and Airlines for America fuel accounted for 30 to 33% of an airlines total operating cost. To give you a real life example look at page 4 of Emirates annual financial statement for 2012-2013 which states that "jet fuel cost continues to be the single largest cost element of the total operating cost" representing 39.6% of the total operating budget.

IATA - Products and Services Release: The Airline Industry Story for 2012
High airline jet fuel costs prompt cost-saving measures - Today in Energy - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)
http://www.theemiratesgroup.com/system/aspx/download.aspx?id=tcm:409-1206240

Now the IL-96 is a fifth the price of the Boeing 777-200ER and consumes 0.85 liters less per KM of flight so you would think it has an advantage but recall it has a drastically smaller carrying capacity in comparison to the Boeing 777-200ER which can accommodate 140 more passengers making a large difference considering the jets need to be flying for the next 20 to 25 years.

Say we had two round trip flights from London to Islamabad (12200 km) one of the jets is a Boeing 777-200ER while the other is an IL-96-300 and taking note of current jet fuel prices at $2.936 as per the IATA. The PIA currently has tickets for a round trip flight that route costing $899. Assuming both planes charged the same rate (assuming both employed the single class configuration for simplicity) and filled to capacity if we were to use the Boeing 777-200ER we would earn about $95413 more per round trip.

From the company link I cited earlier The IL-96-300 has an operational lifespan of 70,000 hours and since the jet travels at a speed of 900 KM per hour each round trip would take approximately 13.5 hours that means a total of about 5164 flights (Boeing states the 777-200ER can travel at a cruising speed of 1029 km per hour). If we assume they both have about the same lifespan going the same route the Boeing 777-200ER earns more than $492 million more over the course of its lifespan (assuming we do not take into consideration maintenance costs since these figures weren't listed) equivalent to the cost of almost ten IL-96-300 jets.

That is why, as far as I can tell, the Boeing 777-200ER is the superior jet.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Wrong Ilyushin 96 has released a 400 class version , that takes up to 486 passengers.
Even with 320 capacity , the 60 brand new planes give a GREAT boost to PIA

The question is not about fuel , its about number of new planes, 60 vs 3-7 planes for same
amount of money. The amount of money 2.8 Billion wasted on buying 7-8 Boeing would have been better spent buying 60 Ilyushin 96 (400 class) planes

I will also say this again the question is not about which plane is superior Boeing and Airbus have advantage. However , Russian plane gives Pakistan 60 brand new 400+ passenger capacity planes and that is huge !!

If the price of both planes was equal then you look at fuel economy , but when Russia offers you 60 planes , you can't beat that by buying 3-4 Boeing planes and saying its good deal
It's really not


2.8 Billion -> 60 Ilyushin-96 , 400 class (Yes there is a class for it comparable capacity to boeing)
vs 6-7 Boeing 777 (Allegedly fuel efficient planes)

Specifications on the 400 Class are on Ilyushin pages which demonstrate capacity is very close to Touted Boeing 777 class


Price of Boeing from Boeing's own website
Boeing: Jet Prices

777-300ER 320.2 Million Dollars

I am sorry but expensive toys like Boeing are not for Pakistan

Its really like a man who sells , peanuts getting a BMW ,that too on his future income from penut sales and he is only getting BMW because every one else gets BMW too

And when that man gets the BMW he realizes he has no money to buy fuel or maintain it and starts begging people for money so he can fuel his BMW , and that is what PIA has become

 

[KingCobra]

Actually OP makes sense...
Illusion seems to be more sensible for PIA as per the profits that can be gained.
Not sure why people are opposing his opinion!!!


I like the figures he brought up...Hope Air India goes with illusion and comes back to profit...

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

PS not to mention it has 4 engines , unlike the two engine planes if one of the engines goes out , better say your prayers.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

India would have been the first customer of any good aircraft Russia bring up good. It might have some problems regarding it. Maybe the life cycle cost of the aircraft is damn too high. For boeing they have local distributors and sale support all over the world. I do not think Illushin have this.

 

[trident2010]

Even Russia itself has only few of IL-96s. I don't think they are as good as trusted Boeings and Aisbuses.

 

[livingdead]

PS not to mention it has 4 engines , unlike the two engine planes if one of the engines goes out , better say your prayers.

why dont other countries buy it then.. whats the catch?
PIA is cash starved, it should not try to do any adventure, just buy normal planes and give good customer service.

 

[Darth Vader]

@AZADPAKISTAN2009 My Friend Lets Just Say If PIA had bought These 60 planes
Now will PIA be operational the next day ?
Not So much because its a tottaly different From the Boeing Which Pakistan is been using For years PIA Have alot of experience on that our pilots air crew engineers have alot of experience on them, so lets just say its a User friendly air craft for PIA
60 Planes Is not a small number
You need huge infrastructure and alot of man power, to just 2 only handle them not even operate them
For these 60 it have taken months or years before they could be operational Because they Pakistan wont be able you use all these 60 air crafts in 1 day because they cant just transfer crew of smaller aicrafts to these They have to go to basics which takes Years To train

In The Long Run illy 96 could be more profitable If we have trained crews which were ready for these 60 aircrafts Which we dont have and it would have only costed more money for years So the best way instead of getting a huge bunch of air crafts buy the workhorse when you have money You can add more numbers

 

[PakPrinciples]

Wrong Ilyushin 96 has released a 400 class version , that takes up to 486 passengers.

2.8 Billion -> 60 Ilyushin-96 , 400 class
vs 6-7 Boeing 777 (Allegedly fuel efficient planes)

Bro, there is no such thing as an IL-96 with a 400 passenger capacity at least not as far as Ilyushin's website goes.

They do list a IL-96-400T but state that it is just a slightly longer IL-96-300 passenger jet modified for carrying cargo. There could have been talks at one time to produce such a jet but Ilyushin probably abandoned the idea because of a lack of capital or possibly even if it existed there was doubt it would compare favorably with the 777-300ER considering the major performance difference between the 777-200ER versus the IL-96-300 resulting in poor sales unable to cover R&D costs.

Aircraft | OJSC "Ilyushin Aviation Complex"

The question is not about fuel , its about number of new planes, 60 vs 3-7 planes for same
amount of money

If the price of both planes was equal then you look at fuel economy , but when Russia offers you 60 planes , you can't beat that by buying 3-4 Boeing planes and saying its good deal
It's really not

777-300ER 320.2 Million Dollars

As confirmed by the sources I referenced in my previous post, fuel accounts for over a third of an airlines operational cost so it is extremely important.

Now that I get how you are approaching this issue I will provide an explanation that will make a lot more sense to you and other readers that happen to come across this.

Let me demonstrate how the IL-96-300 is impractical in comparison to the Boeing models...

Assume a round trip flight from London to Islamabad (12200 km) with fuel prices at $2.936 per liter.

1. The IL-96 uses 11.11 liters per km so with a 300 passenger capacity you would need to charge $1326.5 per ticket to break even.
2. The Boeing 777-200 ER uses 11.96 liters per km so with a 440 passenger capacity it would need to charge $973.63 per ticket to break even.
3. The Boeing 777-300ER uses 15.40 liters per km so with a 550 passenger capacity it would need to charge $1002.94 per ticket to break even.

Now assuming an operational life of 5160 flights along the route described above the final break even ticket price that would allow us to recoup the cost of the specific jet in question would be:

1. IL-96 = $1358.80
2. 777-230ER = $1088.81
3. 777-330ER = $1115.77

When we start to include other fees that need to be factored in to the above prices and the fact that with the Boeing's require fewer pilot hours, maintenance staff hours, stewards and stewardesses hours, etc... in comparison to the IL-96-300 because of their added carrying capacity (meaning less flights to service the same number of customers which also produces less wear and tear) the Boeing's should earn significantly more (particularly the 777-300ER) over the life of the jets which explains why airlines flocked to these larger models (though it appears jets with larger engines and smaller bodies are being cited as the future - ex. A350XWB).

Conclusion:
Even if you could get 100 IL-96-300 for the price of a single 777-200ER or 777-300ER what PIA would have to charge per ticket would not be competitive with airlines that use the Boeing jets and in the end PIA is going to wind up losing customers and business so the investment in the IL-96-300s would have been for nothing.

The only way what you suggested works is if:

1. The other airlines that service Pakistan or any of the other international cities the PIA flies to pay their pilots, stewards and maintenance crew so much more that any benefits they attained from the lowered operational costs due to fuel savings, decreased pilot hours, maintenance crew hours and on flight steward hours is no longer applicable and ticket prices wind up being the same or their tickets are costlier.
2. PIA is able to secure jet fuel at lower prices other airlines were incapable of attaining them at which is highly unlikely considering most of the major airlines we would be competing against are major oil and gas producers (ex. Emirates and Qatar)
3. The other airlines would need to be so severely overbooked customers had no choice but fly PIA at the extra cost.

It appears that the PIA might have to lay off staff if what you stated about them having too many employees and not enough jets, cargo and passengers to service is correct and re-hiring as business picks up in the future. Otherwise, they need to start buying or leasing more jets and I am particularly interested in the 777X series of jets or the new Airbus A350XWB which some are touting as the future of passenger jets and are stated as significantly reducing operational costs (meaning increased profits).

I am definitely not an expert but based on the information I found I just do not see a way for the IL-96-300 to compete with the Boeing's and could explain why so few of the Ilyushin's were produced (i.e. just not competitive). Well that is assuming maintenance costs for the IL-96-300 are significantly lower over the life of the jet in which case I would be with you in supporting the purchase but I personally do not have access to this information.

**As a side note I appreciate the fact that you took the time to do some research into the topic instead of just blurting an opinion and not even trying to defend it with actual evidence.