Illegal detainees

[Irfan Baloch]

Hi,

The millitary must not infringe into domain held by the police---that is a no no----if their is to be any respect for ORDER in the society---then the millitary has to be subversive to the police force---. What right and authority does a millitary officer has over a police officer---we have made our millitary officers as sacred cows---they are not untouchables---.

A police officer is a law enforcement officer----his authority and powers must supercede those of any other personal in uniform---that is the standards of a civilized society.

-.

yes I agree with what you are saying

even army gives away the name of the absconders to the local police stations so that they can be caught and put in civil jail.
this incident is heavy handedness from army side and they should have gone through proper procedure to get him from poliec and try themselves.
I am of the view that Army has learned the lesson to be careful about its public image after so many backlashes (e.g. Mushy vs Iftikhar) etc. its even careful by not releasing the pictures of the terrorists it kills in combat fearing that it will be used by the pro-taliban elements to cause more hatred among people towards it and then this?

maybe it would have gotten away with it in last two decades but not now. there are a lot of forces that are practically hounding it for any mistake it does so that it can be spread all over the media so in this case I think the commanding officer is responsible.
I think Gen Athar Abbas should call the CO and make him a murgha

while the affected police officers should be offered some kind of compensation and apology.

here is my recommendation about compensations

1. 2012 Army calenders and diaries
2. Rs 1000 vouchers for Garrison Bakery
3. A rare Singed photo graph of "Smiling Gen Kyani"


come on now anyone will be tempted with this sort of bribe erm I mean compensation

 

[Irfan Baloch]

[/COLOR]shouldnot the agency head by punished for illegal detention ??? or is it not a crime ?? shouldnt a separate case be filled to see where the guys in uniform are exceeding their limits?

that will be a first in the history of the world.
I cant find any example of security people getting punished for detention and torture.

the Badgram airbase is still working with full capacity and so is camp X ray and numerous in-transit camps across the world that are run by CIA against its targets.

Rhetoric aside, first the constitution needs to define the nature and scope of the intelligence agencies. security agencies by their very name and nature word beyond the normal boundaries otherwise they cant exist.

blackops, espionage, counter subversion and covert ops all work under the cloak and dagger and they have existed before even the human history started to get written. its very fancy and trendy to cry a river over the ISI. ok lets do away with the agency, lets disband it and have all its officers and personal shot and cremated.
but then again

tell us if the ASI of Satellite town Rawalpindi would have been to identify and capture KSM on his own?

 

[Leader]

that will be a first in the history of the world.
I cant find any example of security people getting punished for detention and torture.

the Badgram airbase is still working with full capacity and so is camp X ray and numerous in-transit camps across the world that are run by CIA against its targets.

Rhetoric aside, first the constitution needs to define the nature and scope of the intelligence agencies. security agencies by their very name and nature word beyond the normal boundaries otherwise they cant exist.

blackops, espionage, counter subversion and covert ops all work under the cloak and dagger and they have existed before even the human history started to get written. its very fancy and trendy to cry a river over the ISI. ok lets do away with the agency, lets disband it and have all its officers and personal shot and cremated.
but then again

tell us if the ASI of Satellite town Rawalpindi would have been to identify and capture KSM on his own?

ISI has admitted illegal detention for the first time today, 4 out of these 11 detainees are killed through torture in custody, they were Pakistani citizens...

choose law:

1) Army own special Law

2) PPC

 

[Irfan Baloch]

ISI has admitted illegal detention for the first time today, 4 out of these 11 detainees are killed through torture in custody, they were Pakistani citizens...

choose law:

1) Army own special Law

2) PPC

well thats a first and I think Pakistan is making history

I hope that army hatred is set aside and the law is followed without emotions to reach a judgement that can serve as a guideline for us and other countries too.

I am not an expert in law so I cant comment which law should apply but there is provision in both to pass the judgement on such cases (note I am not talking about Punishment because I am not a judge, let the judge decide after hearing the circumstances and the actual events)

 

[salmakh84]

The army has more than 2000+ detainees ILLEGALLY held. I hope these 7 will be set free.

IF they are involved (the missing persons) in cases, try them. IF courts are weak, STRENGTHEN it. Kidnapping citizens is NOT an excuse, especially for people who are working FOR the LAW/CONSTITUTION. Otherwise there is no difference between terrorists and army. (which till now, there isn't)

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 PM ----------

The army has more than 2000+ detainees ILLEGALLY held. I hope these 7 will be set free.

IF they are involved (the missing persons) in cases, try them. IF courts are weak, STRENGTHEN it. Kidnapping citizens is NOT an excuse, especially for people who are working FOR the LAW/CONSTITUTION. Otherwise there is no difference between terrorists and army. (which till now, there isn't).

Imagine, when an ARMY JAMADAAR (sweeper, a.k.a Saleem Masih) was held by police, a SWEEPER for God's sake, the army came in full force (50+ men) to the station, thrashed police officers and took their man away, what command a General holds!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Imagine, when an ARMY JAMADAAR (sweeper, a.k.a Saleem Masih) was held by police, a SWEEPER for God's sake, the army came in full force (50+ men) to the station, thrashed police officers and took their man away, what command a General holds!

so whats is the issue? do you think a Sweeper is less of a human than an average Pakistani? I see that the Army cares for all its men despite of their ranks, religion or social standing.

I agree though that this incident is condemnable because this was highhandedness by the army. the CO must be made responsible because he was the one who would have given orders to go ahead with the raid.

re 2000 detainees. I cant make a sweeping statement out of spite against the army.
if they include who have beheaded our civilians and soldiers, have been active members who took part or facilitated in organizing terrorism then I have no sympathy for them. they can rot for all I care.

our courts have such a lackluster record when it comes to punishing the culprits. here the serial mass killers are let out with full honour and they even get away with threatening the judges and the witnesses, yes I know that thats not an excuse for detaining people without trial but tell me if you want to see the movie stars of Swat massacre who beheaded men and women near your place where you live?

oh by the way

I consider that army Jamadar Saleem Masih deserves as much respect as any other citizen of the country. I can proudly say that despite belonging to an elite tribal family, I have been a regular host of the low cast people and have eaten together with them and offered them same food in same plates and cutlery that I use for myself.

 

[Jango]

Weather is not fit for airlifting from Parachinar: ISI lawyer

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------

Transportation by road from Parachinar to Islamabad won't be possible within court time. ISI lawyer...

---------- Post added at 03:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------

Given the excuses presented, prisoners will be presented before court on Monday....

---------- Post added at 04:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 PM ----------

well I hope they dont get any further time, or CJ may use danda to fix some nut heads !!

---------- Post added at 04:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------

case adjourned til Monday...

3 prisoners being shifted from a government hospital in Peshawar in an ambulance.

Well the fact that they were in a hospital kind of goes with the version of the military lawyer, that the prisoners were most of the time battered internally by the poor living conditions they lived in, and already had medical problems beforehand, and the army gave them proper medical treatment in CMH's and civil hospitals, and the three prisoners were in a government hospital in Peshawar.

 

[Jango]

If the people who have been involved in terror activities been held by security agencies then no problem.

BTW, IB also has a hand in doing some cases, wonder why it never gets a mention!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

If the people who have been involved in terror activities been held by security agencies then no problem.

BTW, IB also has a hand in doing some cases, wonder why it never gets a mention!

hey hey
I am not actively involved in security operations. I only provide indirect support.
so I dont want to be on the hit list of pro Taliban Anchor like Hamid Mir and the ultra Liberal
بال کٹی ماسی مسیبتے lawyer , sorry forgot her name

 

[Jango]

hey hey
I am not actively involved in security operations. I only provide indirect support.
so I dont want to be on the hit list of pro Taliban Anchor like Hamid Mir and the ultra Liberal
بال کٹی ماسی مسیبتے lawyer , sorry forgot her name

LOL.

Well by IB i referred to Intelligence Bureau, the civilian intelligence agency!!!

 

[salmakh84]

so whats is the issue? do you think a Sweeper is less of a human than an average Pakistani? I see that the Army cases for all its men despite of their ranks, religion or social standing.

I agree though that this incident is condemnable because this was highhandedness by the army. the CO must be made responsible because he was the one who would have given orders to go ahead with the raid.

re 2000 detainees. I cant make a sweeping statement out of spite against the army.
if they include who have beheaded our civilians and soldiers, have been active members who took part or facilitated in organizing terrorism then I have no sympathy for them. they can rot for all I care.

our courts have such a lackluster record when it comes to punishing the culprits. here the serial mass killers are let out with full honour and they even get away with threatening the judges and the witnesses, yes I know that thats not an excuse for detaining people without trial but tell me if you want to see the movie stars of Swat massacre who beheaded men and women near your place where you live?

oh by the way

I consider that army Jamadar Saleem Masih deserves as much respect as any other citizen of the country. I can proudly say that despite belonging to an elite tribal family, I have been a regular host of the low cast people and have eaten together with them and offered them same food in same plates and cutlery that I use for myself.

Do you think our army/politicians do the same? For them, is a sweeper and some other guy equal. In our army, the lowest "rank" is of the sweeper, so do you seriously think the sweeper and the COAS get the same respect?

Don't turn the argument towards whats it not. I also respect sweepers etc. its not about that. Its about How High and Mighty our agencies are. Above the LAW and Everyone else.

50 people came for a sweeper. If a police wala had caught a major red handed, 100 army walas would have beaten the hell out of the police!
If God Forbid it was a General, don't you think All the police wala's would have been fired?

3 prisoners being shifted from a government hospital in Peshawar in an ambulance.

Well the fact that they were in a hospital kind of goes with the version of the military lawyer, that the prisoners were most of the time battered internally by the poor living conditions they lived in, and already had medical problems beforehand, and the army gave them proper medical treatment in CMH's and civil hospitals, and the three prisoners were in a government hospital in Peshawar.

Oh wow. They are young men. 20s or 30s. All of them got terminal diseases? Please don't tell me you seriously think they got ILL on their own accord? They can't walk, have been BRUTULLY tortured and are in hospitals so they can get better and then BE TORTURED again.

Please don't fool yourself sir, I know you are intelligent. And do search about HOW MANY people NEVER came into hospitals but their tortured bodies were found?

 

[Rafi]

I hope this salmakh AQ sympathizer shows the same outrage over his scumbag friends blowing innocent Pakistanis to death, it is thanks to Intel that the mainland has seen a dramatic decline in suicide bombings.

 

[Pioneerfirst]

I am sure if Supreme court gets some evidences then many more can be located.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

its in the court as well, I think today a report was to be submitted by MI with respect to missing persons...

however, it is true that CJ could have pulled strings, but he hasnot so far... not in a single instance so far...

The CJ's priorities are correct - the government and various civilian institutions need to be made effective and de-politicized on a priority basis.

Only when the government and law enforcement institutions are reformed and start performing their jobs will they receive public support and be able to enforce their SOLE right to enforce law and order.

Currently every thug and powerful institution gets to do whatever they like because the government and law enforcement are pretty much non-existent.

Think about it, if the government was functioning properly and the Attorney General and Law Enforcement institutions were de-politicized, would they have not already raised this issue in the courts and tried to recover these people?

Why does the CJ have to take Suo Moto notice? Why were these cases not already being pursued?

It is because the government is broken and corrupt and therefore has no standing to challenge other powerful institutions that are also engaging in allegedly unlawful activities.

The whole system is broken, and until we start fixing the CORE of the system, the government and various law enforcement and judicial institutions, the rest of the system will be impossible to reform and fix.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

BTW, has the GoP passed that anti-terrorism legislation yet?

Liberals chew out the CJ and the courts for releasing alleged terrorists when they are taken to trial, but the fact of the matter is that the Jiyala and Nawaz-worker filled FIA and police can't really make an airtight case and argue it in front of the court.

The inability of the current police and legal system to convict suspected terrorists is probably a major factor in the Security Forces taking the 'law into their own hands'.