If India makes more longrange ICBMs, Beijing may help Pakistan do the same, says Chinese state media

[Indx-techs]

How do you know Pakistan doesn't produce turbo fans?

http://mtcr.info/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/MTCR_Annex_Handbook_ENG.pdf

India is listed for global turbofan production which are used in cruise missiles. Pak isn't.

I know for sure you are not an expert in anything, so don't try to be one.

Control yourself, you have no idea who's behind this anonymous name.

@Horus @Oscar @Manticore @TaimiKhan @WAJsal @waz @WebMaster @Jungibaaz @Zaki
I would like to report this poster for spreading propaganda.

My propaganda? It's usual for Pakistanis to swallow up anything which brings them "at neck with India" without questions.

No NAVAREA, no NOTAM, distance between Pakistan and Indian Ocean, it's still not propaganda.
If mods can allow me, I can open a thread for discussing all these technical issues analysis.

I have asked proof of his arguments that he specially mentioned were included in a document from MTCR which I have gone through personally and found no arguments there that he attributed to the document.

Wait, le'me start sorting out entire document.

(And before all of that, I'm saying, with an R&D budget of barely $2 billions, you must not be surprised.)

 

[shah1398]

There is no such thing as a static new world order. Nothing is static. Power balances change constantly. These changes affect the world order constantly as well.

Should Vietnam become capable of targeting every part of China using ballistic missiles, it would bring about a big change in the existing balance of power in the region (East Asia).

Should Japan remove the pacifism (happening already) from its constitution and start arming itself with Ballistic missiles, it would bring about a big change in the existing balance of power of that region.

We can do to China what China is doing to us - arm India's only enemy in South Asia - Pakistan. China has much more enemies in East Asia than we have in South Asia.

India also knows Statecraft. Our Government for the last decade was weak. That is no longer the case.

Again my main query was unanswered as how is India going to help Vietnam in developing anything having range and beyond beyond limits specified by MTCR as Vietnam aint a signatory of MTCR till now? Secondly I didnt mention any STATIC world order as I was referring to situation o ground at that very particular time in future. Thirdly if Japan and any other country take some step then U dont suppose that China will just be doing running at the spot for them to catch up with it as China is way ahead in field of defence than almost all of its contemporaries in the region, I repeat In The Region. Fourth that do You really think that Japan is fool enough to provocate China in current circumstances? All Japan would do is go for such a level of self defence that it no longer requires presence of any foreign troop on its soil esp Uncle Sam. Laslty India is not at all fool enough to provocate China by crossing a specific threshold and as a matter of fact try doing something of military help in nature with Taiwan, wud India something like that? Ofcourse not.

India is listed for global turbofan production which are used in cruise missiles. Pak isn't.

Pakistan is not a signatory of MTCR so it aint bound to provide all info that MTCR seeks from Pakistan but on the contrary India is suppose to provide every info to them. Works fine for us.

 

[Indx-techs]

Pakistan is not a signatory of MTCR so it aint bound to provide all info that MTCR seeks from Pakistan but on the contrary India is suppose to provide every info to them. Works fine for us.

If you give some attention, India became it's member very recently but that report is at least 5-7 years old (2010).
They don't include you till you test that technology. No country is bound to share whatever project it has, they automatically come to know with your test.
At first place, you quoted me for Turbofan, so if you can share something about Pakistani Turbofan project, I will appreciate.
You may or may not agree but Pakistani R&D budget and manpower readily falls short for carrying out research on projects like Turbofan and every technolgy to come "at neck with India". No intention for nationalistic chest thumping but I hope you won't deny it either. R&D budget is nuts.
Anyway, waiting for details of Pakistani Turbofan project (as per you).

 

[shah1398]

If you give some attention, India became it's member very recently but that report is at least 5-7 years old (2010).
They don't include you till you test that technology. No country is bound to share whatever project it has, they automatically come to know with your test.
At first place, you quoted me for Turbofan, so if you can share something about Pakistani Turbofan project, I will appreciate.
You may or may not agree but Pakistani R&D budget and manpower readily falls short for carrying out research on projects like Turbofan and every technolgy to come "at neck with India". No intention for nationalistic chest thumping but I hope you won't deny it either. R&D budget is nuts.
Anyway, waiting for details of Pakistani Turbofan project (as per you).

First MTCR only knew it when India shared it with them but still at that time India wasnt bound to reveal this capability to them as is current case with us. Secondly there are lots of stuff that we keep under the carpet and that keep on prompting me to say "I just love the way Pak Armed Forces keep things secret" n one such example is SMLCM Babur III, which was already kicking off for many years but world only came to know about it when we told them.

Regarding R&D, I ll only say that we seriously dont believe in reinventing the wheel rather grab whatever is available in the market and go ahead with that and that is why that we have made so many strides in field of esp cruise missiles (U can deduce anything from my this statement but that wud not be an inch closer to what U wud think, just a tip, its got nothing to do with China) but India even having collaboration of Russia in Brahmos, have miserably failed in bringing Nirbhay in some good shape. Other examples of Tejas,Nishant etc etc are in front of us. So thank U so much but we dont want such R&D as yours here.

Luckily a thread is already running on how we run the show.

https://defence.pk/threads/incremental-upgrades-in-pakistani-nuclear-missiles-over-the-years.472457/

 

[Indx-techs]

First MTCR only knew it when India shared it with them but still at that time India wasnt bound to reveal this capability to them as is current case with us.

Many facilities have been tracked from Indian Industrial Complexes and missile tests. India never delivered reports itself.

You may or may not agree, Pak has to import more sorts of equipment than India which automatically reveals.
Plus, you can't hide your missile tests, NOTAMs and NAVAREAs reveal everything.

Secondly there are lots of stuff that we keep under the carpet and that keep on prompting me to say

As if Indians don't, not on this forum, but an ongoing electromagnetic railgun project from Mumbai, NBC bunkers, laser project from Balasore (now open) and ASAT preparations and simulations, last one occurred in September 8th, 2016. India too has a lot of still in cover even after being from MTCR because MTCR only abides you from their proliferation to other countries, not keeping them private.

Plus, above report from 2010, since then, India has developed things like Scramjets and HGV prototypes too.

"I just love the way Pak Armed Forces keep things secret" n one such example is SMLCM Babur III, which was already kicking off for many years but world only came to know about it when we told them.

You know, I have a great issue with it.

Other examples of Tejas,Nishant etc etc are in front of us.

Thanks for your appreciation but they are having problems because they neither meet Army's criteria nor they are from experienced hands, I can still list up some technologies from India used there Pak may like to have.
On main note, India took two decades to make a dud helo and later came up with potent fleet, from a comedian OPV making capability to shipbuilding industry making some of world's largest guided missile destroyers, transporting satellites on Bullock carts to what we do them with today, taking 10 years to make small ballistic missiles to making and operationalizing ICBMs in 3 years, no problem with these things too, first attempts.
It's best to have last laugh.

(U can deduce anything from my this statement but that wud not be an inch closer to what U wud think, just a tip, its got nothing to do with China)

I don't need any tip either, it uses Soviet NPO engines bought in bulk by Pakistan around 70s and 80s.
In fact, I already know that Pak doesn't have any turbofan engines, I just wanted to troll you.

Look mate, I'm not trying to prompt you (nor turbofan engine is anything which any government needs to hide), I'm reminding you that India has R&D budget double of Pakistan's total budget.
As we invest in labs & research institutions like crazy b*tches, you may surely find a lot which others can't have.

we have made so many strides in field of esp cruise missiles

Ya, we have strides in fields in which Pakistan has not even kept it's feet.

 

[mourning sage]

Doesn't effect India much. Pakistan already has the capability to hit most of India. But this action by china will violate International proliferation laws.

Reciprocate your words with actions. You might claim that it doesnt affect India much but a single 'bogus' test of a SLCM threw you shooting off the roof.

 

[shah1398]

Many facilities have been tracked from Indian Industrial Complexes and missile tests. India never delivered reports itself.

You may or may not agree, Pak has to import more sorts of equipment than India which automatically reveals.
Plus, you can't hide your missile tests, NOTAMs and NAVAREAs reveal everything.

If they had tracked such things without the consent of the government then I call it breach of security as from launches only some info can be just guessed while core capabilities and sensitive tech used arent exposed.

I have already said that we do not believe in reinventing the wheel so yes we buy quite many things from the market that are readily available but when it comes to sensitive tech then how can we be so careless as not to develop it on own as we really do not know when would sanctions hit us.

Regarding missile tests then considering tests of Nasr and now Babur III we can deduce two main things.

1: These missiles' first flight was successful one.

2: These are stealthy enough not be picked up by any source when then were being tested prior to the public trial.

Plz decide it yourself.

As if Indians don't, not on this forum, but an ongoing electromagnetic railgun project from Mumbai, NBC bunkers, laser project from Balasore (now open) and ASAT preparations and simulations, last one occurred in September 8th, 2016. India too has a lot of still in cover even after being from MTCR because MTCR only abides you from their proliferation to other countries, not keeping them private.

Plus, above report from 2010, since then, India has developed things like Scramjets and HGV prototypes too.

Whatever India develops, it is out in the public even before its development is complete. So all these things U have mentioned majority if not all were already out in the public even that KAALI something thing is bragged about before its completion. Plus regarding MTCR, it has its own criteria and rules like U said so if being a member U satisfy those then its ok with them.

Thanks for your appreciation but they are having problems because they neither meet Army's criteria nor they are from experienced hands, I can still list up some technologies from India used there Pak may like to have.
On main note, India took two decades to make a dud helo and later came up with potent fleet, from a comedian OPV making capability to shipbuilding industry making some of world's largest guided missile destroyers, transporting satellites on Bullock carts to what we do them with today, taking 10 years to make small ballistic missiles to making and operationalizing ICBMs in 3 years, no problem with these things too, first attempts.
It's best to have last laugh.

If they didnt meet the requirements then howcome they were even inducted? And am sure U are being sarcastic when U pointed at "Non experienced hands".... My point was that most of these stuff U are talking about were made with foreign assistance one way or the other and now being claimed as Only yours. Even your ISRO was struggling with many issues and were deadlocked at one point in 80s but thanks to then USSR it came to help. So plz do give some credit to those who help U in development of these but yes I would admit it with open heart that India has absorbed all such TOT and tech quite well and making most from it.

Look mate, I'm not trying to prompt you (nor turbofan engine is anything which any government needs to hide), I'm reminding you that India has R&D budget double of Pakistan's total budget.
As we invest in labs & research institutions like crazy b*tches, you may surely find a lot which others can't have.

India is a big country and its requirements are huge so to compare it with Pakistan...it wud be totally inappropriate. On the contrary how can U tell that we do not invest in R &D when it comes to military esp missile tech and can U give some estimates to me that what is our budget in this very field? Can U even guess it? ofcourse not as its covered by special funds which are not open to general public. Howcpome U came out with miniature nuke for Nasr? Howcome we were able to bring in many improvements in out missile tech and delivery systems? Do U think these come only at cost of peanuts?

Ya, we have strides in fields in which Pakistan has not even kept it's feet.

Ofcourse U have because U prioritized those fields while we were busy fighting war of survival. But things are changing here so get ready to see many surprises from Pakistan every now and then.

 

[Indx-techs]

If they had tracked such things without the consent of the government then I call it breach of security as from launches only some info can be just guessed while core capabilities and sensitive tech used arent exposed.

Are you serious? India spends close to $50 billions (not defence budget) on research and development, makes even dedicated cities for civil & strategic assets and won't be tracked? It's so much to hide.

India is known for making a particle observatory with four times bigger than CERN. Do you know why it's "known"? because it can't be hidden.

Plus, a lot more international students/professors are here in India, its obvious.
For soft image, India usually publicizes a lot of test but even demonstrated weapons are only a fraction of it has. (You know, I just got details for Indian ASAT and EM gun projects after struggling for 7 years).

Whatever India develops, it is out in the public even before its development is complete.

No, something else is publicised to cover it up and look from your post we got successful.

So all these things U have mentioned majority if not all were already out in the public even that KAALI something thing is bragged about before its completion.

KALI is not weapon! it's for research purpose, funny thing is that India continuously tested Aditya, Dazzler & CHESS etc. laser weapons in 2014, 15 & 16 continuously and people are still calling KALI a weapon.

This is one, I have a lot more.

Go out for details (available now) in public, if things go okay, India may be fourth Nation to have operational Directed Energy Weapons after USA, Russia and PRC.

If they didnt meet the requirements then howcome they were even inducted? And am sure U are being sarcastic when U pointed at "Non experienced hands".... My point was that most of these stuff U are talking about were made with foreign assistance one way or the other and now being claimed as Only yours.

It's not that much of foreign assistance as you are asserting, India scores 14th in WIPO, 11th in USPTO, among top 5 as of MTCR annex report I provided and has a big R&D budget. Nothing wrong in taking initiation from some other place if we are ready to carry out further research work ourselves. China did the same.

Even your ISRO was struggling with many issues and were deadlocked at one point in 80s but thanks to then USSR it came to help.

Which? Just asking, because all I know that initial vehicle support was provided by USSR, for rest, we have either been collaborating with Europe (and so is China, they got a lot of tech & expertise from there) or doing R&D (wasting our 10 precious years on a rocket but really, fire is set on heart when it's done).

So plz do give some credit to those

Never denied!

who help U in development of these but yes I would admit it with open heart that India has absorbed all such TOT and tech quite well and making most from it.

I don't think so, we couldn't gain as much as we could.
Let me give you an example of semiconductor industry. When Semiconductor OEM's were moving to Asia Pacific, two countries (China & India) were trying to provide R&D facilities.

China already riding high on economic growth got TOT & manufacturing meanwhile India imposed with sanctions had to start own program.
China has now got manufacturing capability of 28 nm semiconductor chips meanwhile India had to struggle first to develop 320 nm, then, 180 nm and now 90 nm. Nowhere near required 10 nm advanced (yes, China also doesn't "manufacture" smartphones instead assembles like India but a larger scale, no matter how much Chinese members brag and troll Indians about it , they also import chips from NE Asia or west when it comes to make something for daily life).
Don't wanna talk over rest of your post.

 

[shah1398]

Are you serious? India spends close to $50 billions (not defence budget) on research and development, makes even dedicated cities for civil & strategic assets and won't be tracked?

Yes I am serious. If U cant keep your secrets well guarded then whats the fun of spending billions of USD on such labs when U know enemy has the access and can play hell with anything it wants I guess thats the main reason why sensitive stuff like military Uranium landed in hands of bad guys.

KALI is not weapon!

Surf this very forum and even here U wud find lots of Indian enthusiasts who have graded it as a weapon. Again as expected i see this same phrase with IF.

if things go okay

 

[Indx-techs]

Yes I am serious. If U cant keep your secrets well guarded.

You can keep things secret to some extent, not completely.
I think I must also control myself (though I don't think if me & you know something, that's left secret).

 

[shah1398]

It's not that much of foreign assistance as you are asserting, India scores 14th in WIPO, 11th in USPTO, among top 5 as of MTCR annex report I provided and has a big R&D budget. Nothing wrong in taking initiation from some other place if we are ready to carry out further research work ourselves.

But what I see is that when something out there meets consistent failures then its labeled as "Technology Demonstartor". Same was case with Kaveri and now some officials are asserting the Nirbhay be treated as same.

You can keep things secret to some extent, not completely.
I think I must also control myself (though I don't think if me & you know something, that's left secret).

Well lets call it a day then. Thank You for your patience and humble replies.

 

[Indx-techs]

Surf this very forum and even here U wud find lots of Indian enthusiasts who have graded it as a weapon.

Ignore those fanboys, I have busted and made this myth extincted on Indian Defence Forums.

Again as expected i see this same phrase with IF.

Till, you decare a project operational, "if" is always there, be it US, Russia, China or the newbie India.
Eventually, this if too will be removed. Reaching this stage isn't a small thing either.

At first place, I exactly don't know "if" this project is still in development or operational after 80% of work done.

Some things are definitely behind the curtain we may known later.

But what I see is that when something out there meets consistent failures then its labeled as "Technology Demonstartor".

How about watching a lot of BMs, reconnaissance satellites, warships (because you guys don't talk civil products we make )?
Do you have AUVs? Clearly, India has to do steps because India tries.

Same was case with Kaveri

I think you must think over it again.

India has made turbofans & cores means it has crossed most designing & technical challenges. China is still struggling, USA & Russia also take time when making a new engine.
Problem India is facing is "hot corrosion" caused by repeated aircraft operations.
That's why making an aircraft engine for India was a more difficult job than making rocket engines. India is working on nickel based single crystal superalloys. And India will succeed soon too, agree or not.

For now, Kaveri already provides 80-85kN against required 90-100kN so you are not supposed to call it failure either. India has indeed done a good job in first attempt.

Now, connect the dots, India is about to complete superalloy project, it will design a new engine and modify old one, a French consultancy is coming for "consultancy" at same time. So, you will entire credit to them!

and now some officials are asserting the Nirbhay be treated as same.

You have so much trust in media? Nirbhay project is alive and previous abort was" intended" (really).

Well lets call it a day then. Thank You for your patience and humble replies.

Thanks to you to set my mood, I was tired from arguing with some retards on some other forum.