IDEAS 2012 Pakistan International Defence (Nov 7-11)

[Kompromat]

@RescueRanger How big of a deal it would be to convert, this to .45ACP calibre ? - 9MM is now outdated for CQB.

 

[MilSpec]

@RescueRanger How big of a deal it would be to convert, this to .45ACP calibre ? - 9MM is now outdated for CQB.

IMO, bigger barell, re positioned breach and a stronger spring. Thats all it should take with minor mod in the frame

 

[RescueRanger]

@RescueRanger How big of a deal it would be to convert, this to .45ACP calibre ? - 9MM is now outdated for CQB.

Good question, for the experts at POF, not a big issue at all

Whilst the .45ACP is not officially supported by HK on the Mp5 platform, that bracket was filled with the Universal Machine Pistol. However KH offers the MP5 40 and MP5/10, the MP5 is the weapon of choice for LE which supports the powerful 10mm Auto cartridge, hence the name. The weapon is virtually identical to the standard 9mm mp5, which slight variations in receiver and magazine, barrel and rifling being a 6 grove right twist, the recoil spring is the from the HK53, compared to the 9mm "F" spring in the standard MP5.

In addition to the 10mm/40 S&W conversion kit, there are after market conversion kits available online that can convert a standard 9mm MP5 to fire 40/.45 and 10mm.

Professional Arms Mk5 9mm, .40, .45 conversions - YouTube

 

[Kompromat]

@RescueRanger : It might be the best option for us, to either convert or build new SMGs for .45ACP round or another strong cartridge, 9MM is useless in CQB now.

 

[RescueRanger]

@RescueRanger : It might be the best option for us, to either convert or build new SMGs for .45ACP round or another strong cartridge, 9MM is useless in CQB now.

Yes, i totally agree. Back in early 2000 there was a massive debate WRT the stopping power of a 9mm, hollow points are good and all, but 9mm is now nothing more than a self defense round. I think, POF (will/should) come up with a variant, almost every tactical LE unit has now switched over to rifles such as the G36C, Sig550 or Colt/Armalite variants.

That said, i have a deep respect for the MP5 (never had to double check the safety), it was one of the first true SMGs i ever trained on and based solely on personal experience i find it to be a very comfortable weapon, compared to the SMG 7.62. That said, i totally agree with you that we need more power in our punch.

 

[Armstrong]

Yes, i totally agree. Back in early 2000 there was a massive debate WRT the stopping power of a 9mm, hollow points are good and all, but 9mm is now nothing more than a self defense round. I think, POF (will/should) come up with a variant, almost every tactical LE unit has now switched over to rifles such as the G36C, Sig550 or Colt/Armalite variants.

That said, i have a deep respect for the MP5 (never had to double check the safety), it was one of the first true SMGs i ever trained on and based solely on personal experience i find it to be a very comfortable weapon, compared to the SMG 7.62. That said, i totally agree with you that we need more power in our punch.

Why can't we just use the AK-47s like the militants do against us, albeit a better, lighter variant ? Its a fairly good platform !

 

[MilSpec]

@RescueRanger : It might be the best option for us, to either convert or build new SMGs for .45ACP round or another strong cartridge, 9MM is useless in CQB now.

Sir, The CQB that you are encountering currently is against the insurgents, which I dont think use any body armor. 9mm is more than enough to take care of them, but if you are planning ahead with the foresight of engaging enemy troops with body armor in cqb, 45ACP can be a good round. From my personal experience I have always have good experience with the 9mm, but I have held great respect for the 5.56 round too. In CQB carbine 5.56 nato HP excels, and can also be employed to reach out to targets at longer distance. IA is experimenting with a smaller 5.56 x 30mm cartridge, another good option for cqb is the FN 5.7×28mm.

 

[Kompromat]

Sir, The CQB that you are encountering currently is against the insurgents, which I dont think use any body armor. 9mm is more than enough to take care of them, but if you are planning ahead with the foresight of engaging enemy troops with body armor in cqb, 45ACP can be a good round. From my personal experience I have always have good experience with the 9mm, but I have held great respect for the 5.56 round too. In CQB carbine 5.56 nato HP excels, and can also be employed to reach out to targets at longer distance. IA is experimenting with a smaller 5.56 x 30mm cartridge, another good option for cqb is the FN 5.7×28mm.

9MM lacks the knockout power, firing one you need to aim at the soft spots or take the tricky head shot. I, do understand that they aren't using the body armor, however the future replacement for 9mm round is inching close for SMGs because TTP is not the primary threat and a bigger more powerful round will be needed.

Pakistan is not in a financial position to afford a spanking new, SMG with higher caliber. If POF can convert the existing pieces to .45 ACP rounds, it will save us millions of dollars in procurement and training on a new system.

 

[MilSpec]

9MM lacks the knockout power, firing one you need to aim at the soft spots or take the tricky head shot. I, do understand that they aren't using the body armor, however the future replacement for 9mm round is inching close for SMGs.

Choosing a cartridge is always a compromise as forces would like to magically invent an "one bullet works for all". The key remains to choose the lesser of the evil, another angle is the cost of the round.

what would be your Ideal characteristics for cqb round

7.62 x 39 - pros:Low cost, excellent terminal ballistics upto 0-400 yards, multiple use as cqb and battle range cartridge,overcomes level 3 armor with ease, logistical simplicity, excellent stopping power
cons: heavy recoil, weight, over penetration

5.56 x 45HP nato- pros:Low cost, excellent terminal ballistics upto 0-400 yards, multiple use as cqb and battle range cartridge,light weight
Cons: poor penetration on armor,

9mm Luger - Pros: Light weight, ease in logistics, low recoil
Cons: Poor penetration, poor stopping capability, no dual purpose use.

45ACP - Pros: stopping power, good short range terminal ballistics,
Cons: heavy weight, higher cost, no dual purpose use, limited platforms

40S&W - right between 45acp and 9mm

5.7FN - Pros: High velocity, light weight, low recoil, decent mid range ballistics
Cons: high costs, limited platforms, higher logistics cost

 

[RescueRanger]

Why can't we just use the AK-47s like the militants do against us, albeit a better, lighter variant ? Its a fairly good platform !

Already use Norinco SMG 7.62 and G3, we could equip all our LEAs with that, 7.62 has decent stopping power.There is a segment in ATS that prefer SMG 7.62 over MP5 & armalite.

@ Sandy_3126, the problem with 9mm is that is just lacks the stopping power compared to the larger calibre. It also lacks the range, compared to a larger calibre. In Karachi and elsewhere our police have often been stopped in their tracks because of the range issue. This is why the old school guys call to revert to the SMG 7.62, in essence it is not a bad choice.

But the use of MP5 in Pakistani police and rangers is widespread, and replacing that many units will be a very costly and time consuming project, something that i think will not be done immediately, provincial and federal governments are presently working on releasing funding to improve the capacity of anti terror units in Federal and Provincial Police Depts.

@ Aeronaut: I am in total agreement, it would be prudent to start working on conversion of the MP5 variants now rather than wait 5 years only to end up buying HK G36C or the 805 A/1, which is already being used in Islamabad Police ATS. Also this would be beneficial for both Law Enforcement and the army as would reduce logistics, training, budgetary and operational issues in the long run. Whatever happens, lets hope that brass make the right choice and don't cut corners.

 

[Hyperion]

@RescueRanger, mate, I have one AK and one MP9... I prefer the former for everything, but it's kind of heavy; The latter is not intimidating enough.

Can you advise me something good... I was thinking of adding one more 'permit', and need to make sure what I get now will suffice for at least 10 more years.

What would you suggest for a compact and light weapon, yet not compromise range and stopping power?

 

[RescueRanger]

@RescueRanger, mate, I have one AK and one MP9... I prefer the former for everything, but it's kind of heavy; The latter is not intimidating enough.

Can you advise me something good... I was thinking of adding one more 'permit', and need to make sure what I get now will suffice for at least 10 more years.

What would you suggest for a compact and light weapon, yet not compromise range and stopping power?

Well mate, if you have something as compact and wonderful as a Mp9, why even bother getting anything else. Perfect personal defence weapon in my humble opinion.

If you are looking for a new rifle, and f money is no concern, and judging by your collection, it seems that way... Ask you friendly supplier for one of these:

With a C Drum magazine, it can be intimidating enough. (That is not me btw). There are a few compact ones knocking around, you will just have to shop around, although if i were you and the AK is genuine, stick with it.

 

[Hyperion]

Mate, the gun you posted, is it M4? Looks too big and won't be needing that mini launcher either!

Yeah, AK and MP9 are both original, when I got them permits were 'relatively' easy and import licenses weren't that big of an issue either.

Basically, I better stick with my weapons then, as there is no use to ask a favor and buy something inferior to what I already have.

BTW, thank god it's not you.. That dude has serious tummy issues!

Well mate, if you have something as compact and wonderful as a Mp9, why even bother getting anything else. Perfect personal defence weapon in my humble opinion.

If you are looking for a new rifle, and f money is no concern, and judging by your collection, it seems that way... Ask you friendly supplier for one of these:

With a C Drum magazine, it can be intimidating enough. (That is not me btw). There are a few compact ones knocking around, you will just have to shop around, although if i were you and the AK is genuine, stick with it.

 

[RescueRanger]

Mate, the gun you posted, is it M4? Looks too big and won't be needing that mini launcher either!

Yeah, AK and MP9 are both original, when I got them permits were 'relatively' easy and import licenses weren't that big of an issue either.

Basically, I better stick with my weapons then, as there is no use to ask a favor and buy something inferior to what I already have.

BTW, thank god it's not you.. That dude has serious tummy issues!

Hahaha, yes it is and that pic is of a relative who likes collecting exotic weapons. That launcher is a Surefire Flashlight, i think you are making the right choice. Trust me, i would take a good AK any day, especially a genuine article.

 

[Hyperion]

Hahaha, yes it is and that pic is of a relative who likes collecting exotic weapons. That launcher is a Surefire Flashlight, i think you are making the right choice. Trust me, i would take a good AK any day, especially a genuine article.

By the way, regarding AK, even in the late 90's when I imported it, we had to "buff" the original markings on it. Reason given to me was that no one from Pakistan can "legally" import a genuine AK from China or Russia. Now how stupid is that?

And yeah, the MP9 is beautiful. Gift from dad!