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Writer and activistNayantara Sahgal, 88, returned her Sahitya Akademi award in protest against what she calls “the unmaking of India” in the present dispensation’s “reign of terror”. She spoke toSatish Padmanabhanfrom her Dehradun home on why she feels so angry and despondent. Excerpts from the interview:
First the V-P and now the president has talked about the dangers to our core values, the reasons why you returned your Sahitya Akademi award. Do you think anyone in the present regime is listening?
Well, it is because they are not listening that I and others have taken this step to return the awards. I am returning the awards to awaken the conscience of the country, to make people aware of what is going on around them, to stop this attack on our secular heritage. The murder of writers, of rationalists, this terrible lynching of a Muslim man in Dadri, it has saddened and horrified me. And I am sure it’s just not me, millions of people in this country, most of them staunch Hindus, must feel the same. Even if the present regime is not listening, I am sure the people are listening, I am sure the message has gone down to them.
But aren’t the provocative speeches some BJP leaders are making on the Dadri incident exactly what its supporters want to hear?
I don’t think the people of Dadri are with these rabid leaders at all. Now an account by human rights organisations on Dadri says Mohammed Akhlaq’s house was in a narrow gali there, that no more than seven or eight people can get in there at one time. No mob could have entered his house. So this talk that he was killed by a mob is incorrect. What happened was that a temple announced that Akhlaq’s family was eating beef. It was pre-planned to instigate the crowd. But even then, only a few people went to his house to kill him. It was called a mob because a mob can’t be arrested. The BJP is out to make it look like a law and order situation but it is not. I don’t at all think it was a rising of the people to lynch this man. It was just cold-blooded murder.
Do you think years of building on the values of secularism, pluralism, tolerance could be squandered away now?
No, I don’t think it can be squandered. That is why important people like the president and vice-president are speaking out against it, it is why these things are being discussed and making headlines in the media. I can’t tell you how overwhelmed I have been by the support I’ve received for my decision to return the award. For instance, today theTribune’s main editorial is on it. Of course, there have also been vicious attacks on me on social media but they are the usual trolls. I, as a Hindu, as a believer, I am filled with horror at what this Hindutva ideology has done to Hinduism. Many, many people are feeling the same way, many are fighting back. Perhaps many more are not speaking out against it openly as they are afraid, but we have to speak out.
Love jehad, ghar wapasi, now the beef ban...do you think there is a concerted effort to beat the minorities into submission?
Yes, it’s clear that is the present government’s policy. It is the RSS mentality. And for the first time they can do it...because they are in power with a clear majority. How else do you rationalise the whole cabinet lining up at a recent meeting of the rss? Mr Modi is a great orator, he goes abroad and talks about the secular and diverse nature of our society. But he doesn’t open his mouth about this in India.
The present regime is betting big on the youth. Do you think these sort of tactics, a sort of Talibanisation, will have any carry with them?
“But there’s an important distinction...Indira was a democrat gone wrong. Mr Modi is a born fascist.”
I will not say that today’s youth are not idealistic. I think the majority of them still hold on to the liberal values of our Constitution. But the others who formed the electorate in 2014, those voting for the first time, they know little or nothing of our history, our philosophy, our heritage, our struggle, our sacrifices. They are looking for jobs. A lot of them contributed to the bjp’s landslide victory. It was quite similar to what happened in Germany after the first world war when Hitler rose to power. He told the youth that the country needed a strong leader to rebuild Germany. He also had a landslide victory in the elections. That fascist technique, that machismo, is what is being tried here. But look where it led Germany to in the end.
Prime Minister Modi has been called a strong leader, some compare him to Indira Gandhi. You had trouble with her government too when she imposed the Emergency. Do you foresee something like that again?
Why foresee one, we are already living in an Emergency right now. The only difference is, it has not officially been declared. There is the same fear psychosis—if you don’t believe in our way of thinking, you will be attacked, even killed. There is an unseen gag on the media as the majority of media houses are controlled by corporates close to the government. Recently, the Maharashtra government wanted to enact a law saying that any criticism of it will be considered sedition. This is a recognised fascist technique of quelling all dissent.
But I want to make an important distinction here between Indira Gandhi and Mr Modi. Indira Gandhi was a democrat gone wrong, Mr Modi is a born fascist.
But let’s say in the Bihar elections the BJP does well, won’t it be a validation of this brand of politics?
That is why the BJP is doing all it can to win the elections there. If they lose Bihar it will be a big blow to their way of thinking. So, Amit Shah, who is very effective in his election strategy, is posted there. What I hear from the ground is that the BJP will probably get the largest number of votes but will not be able to form a government.
Some people have criticised you for accepting the Sahitya Akademi Award in the first place, just two years after the Sikh killings.
These people have to first get their facts right. In 1984, I was the vice-president of the PUCL (People’s Union for Civil Liberties). When the anti-Sikh riots happened, PUCL was the first organisation to come out with a full report on the atrocities. We named names, we gave facts and figures. So, let no one lecture me about my stand on the anti-Sikh riots. I do not support any massacre—the 1984 riots or the 2002 Gujarat riots. My award had nothing to do with it.
What should civil society do so that mistakes of the past are not repeated? Do you feel that it has been too silent?
No, civil society has not kept silent. People have come out against the killings of M.M. Kalburgi, (Narendra) Dabholkar and (Govind) Pansare. People have come out in support of Teesta Setalvad. There are talks, seminars and campaigns in Delhi and other cities to protest against the Hindutva forces. But yes, many of them are afraid to speak. When writers like Perumal Murugan have to write their own obituaries, what can ordinary people, the common man, do?
Do protests and campaigns by writers, artists, the civil society have real impact on the ground?
Let me give you some examples. I have a Muslim worker in my house here in Dehradun who is doing some repair work. He came to me running, triumphantly waving a copy of Amar Ujala which had news of my returning the award. Yesterday, the TV crew which was here to do an interview got emotional about my action. Common people, in one case a taxi driver, have congratulated me. I have faith in the people of this country. Finally, they will decide who should rule India.
‘I, As A Hindu, As A Believer, Am Horrified By This Ideology’ | Satish Padmanabhan | Oct 19,2015
First the V-P and now the president has talked about the dangers to our core values, the reasons why you returned your Sahitya Akademi award. Do you think anyone in the present regime is listening?
Well, it is because they are not listening that I and others have taken this step to return the awards. I am returning the awards to awaken the conscience of the country, to make people aware of what is going on around them, to stop this attack on our secular heritage. The murder of writers, of rationalists, this terrible lynching of a Muslim man in Dadri, it has saddened and horrified me. And I am sure it’s just not me, millions of people in this country, most of them staunch Hindus, must feel the same. Even if the present regime is not listening, I am sure the people are listening, I am sure the message has gone down to them.
But aren’t the provocative speeches some BJP leaders are making on the Dadri incident exactly what its supporters want to hear?
I don’t think the people of Dadri are with these rabid leaders at all. Now an account by human rights organisations on Dadri says Mohammed Akhlaq’s house was in a narrow gali there, that no more than seven or eight people can get in there at one time. No mob could have entered his house. So this talk that he was killed by a mob is incorrect. What happened was that a temple announced that Akhlaq’s family was eating beef. It was pre-planned to instigate the crowd. But even then, only a few people went to his house to kill him. It was called a mob because a mob can’t be arrested. The BJP is out to make it look like a law and order situation but it is not. I don’t at all think it was a rising of the people to lynch this man. It was just cold-blooded murder.
Do you think years of building on the values of secularism, pluralism, tolerance could be squandered away now?
No, I don’t think it can be squandered. That is why important people like the president and vice-president are speaking out against it, it is why these things are being discussed and making headlines in the media. I can’t tell you how overwhelmed I have been by the support I’ve received for my decision to return the award. For instance, today theTribune’s main editorial is on it. Of course, there have also been vicious attacks on me on social media but they are the usual trolls. I, as a Hindu, as a believer, I am filled with horror at what this Hindutva ideology has done to Hinduism. Many, many people are feeling the same way, many are fighting back. Perhaps many more are not speaking out against it openly as they are afraid, but we have to speak out.
Love jehad, ghar wapasi, now the beef ban...do you think there is a concerted effort to beat the minorities into submission?
Yes, it’s clear that is the present government’s policy. It is the RSS mentality. And for the first time they can do it...because they are in power with a clear majority. How else do you rationalise the whole cabinet lining up at a recent meeting of the rss? Mr Modi is a great orator, he goes abroad and talks about the secular and diverse nature of our society. But he doesn’t open his mouth about this in India.
The present regime is betting big on the youth. Do you think these sort of tactics, a sort of Talibanisation, will have any carry with them?
“But there’s an important distinction...Indira was a democrat gone wrong. Mr Modi is a born fascist.”
I will not say that today’s youth are not idealistic. I think the majority of them still hold on to the liberal values of our Constitution. But the others who formed the electorate in 2014, those voting for the first time, they know little or nothing of our history, our philosophy, our heritage, our struggle, our sacrifices. They are looking for jobs. A lot of them contributed to the bjp’s landslide victory. It was quite similar to what happened in Germany after the first world war when Hitler rose to power. He told the youth that the country needed a strong leader to rebuild Germany. He also had a landslide victory in the elections. That fascist technique, that machismo, is what is being tried here. But look where it led Germany to in the end.
Prime Minister Modi has been called a strong leader, some compare him to Indira Gandhi. You had trouble with her government too when she imposed the Emergency. Do you foresee something like that again?
Why foresee one, we are already living in an Emergency right now. The only difference is, it has not officially been declared. There is the same fear psychosis—if you don’t believe in our way of thinking, you will be attacked, even killed. There is an unseen gag on the media as the majority of media houses are controlled by corporates close to the government. Recently, the Maharashtra government wanted to enact a law saying that any criticism of it will be considered sedition. This is a recognised fascist technique of quelling all dissent.
But I want to make an important distinction here between Indira Gandhi and Mr Modi. Indira Gandhi was a democrat gone wrong, Mr Modi is a born fascist.
But let’s say in the Bihar elections the BJP does well, won’t it be a validation of this brand of politics?
That is why the BJP is doing all it can to win the elections there. If they lose Bihar it will be a big blow to their way of thinking. So, Amit Shah, who is very effective in his election strategy, is posted there. What I hear from the ground is that the BJP will probably get the largest number of votes but will not be able to form a government.
Some people have criticised you for accepting the Sahitya Akademi Award in the first place, just two years after the Sikh killings.
These people have to first get their facts right. In 1984, I was the vice-president of the PUCL (People’s Union for Civil Liberties). When the anti-Sikh riots happened, PUCL was the first organisation to come out with a full report on the atrocities. We named names, we gave facts and figures. So, let no one lecture me about my stand on the anti-Sikh riots. I do not support any massacre—the 1984 riots or the 2002 Gujarat riots. My award had nothing to do with it.
What should civil society do so that mistakes of the past are not repeated? Do you feel that it has been too silent?
No, civil society has not kept silent. People have come out against the killings of M.M. Kalburgi, (Narendra) Dabholkar and (Govind) Pansare. People have come out in support of Teesta Setalvad. There are talks, seminars and campaigns in Delhi and other cities to protest against the Hindutva forces. But yes, many of them are afraid to speak. When writers like Perumal Murugan have to write their own obituaries, what can ordinary people, the common man, do?
Do protests and campaigns by writers, artists, the civil society have real impact on the ground?
Let me give you some examples. I have a Muslim worker in my house here in Dehradun who is doing some repair work. He came to me running, triumphantly waving a copy of Amar Ujala which had news of my returning the award. Yesterday, the TV crew which was here to do an interview got emotional about my action. Common people, in one case a taxi driver, have congratulated me. I have faith in the people of this country. Finally, they will decide who should rule India.
‘I, As A Hindu, As A Believer, Am Horrified By This Ideology’ | Satish Padmanabhan | Oct 19,2015
