How Turkey got LUCKY with the F-35?

[Constantin84]

no f-5 pilot.

Close enough...

 

[Mithridates]

Close enough...

still better than an armchair general.

 

[Constantin84]

still better than an armchair general.

At best, I'm an armchair fieldmarshal

 

[MKALE1]

Believing that F35s will hit every target from a far distance is a crap, isn't it?
For example, F35s entered the depths of a country (China, İran etc.) for operation and there are no airplanes in the air at that time, or hiding in a mountainous area. And the Chinese plane fell behind the American plane. How they thinks to defend themself without dogfight. Can anyone explain this?

If something works theoretically, maybe it will work in practice. But if something doesn't work theoretically, it doesn't work surely in practice.

 

[Constantin84]

Believing that F35s will hit every target from a far distance is a crap, isn't it?
For example, F35s entered the depths of a country (China, İran etc.) for operation and there are no airplanes in the air at that time, or hiding in a mountainous area. And the Chinese plane fell behind the American plane. How they thinks to defend themself without dogfight. Can anyone explain this?

Elaborate this tactical situation grand master....how did the Chinese plane fell behind the F35 evading its radar, the AWACS and EW support,,?...

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Believing that F35s will hit every target from a far distance is a crap, isn't it?
For example, F35s entered the depths of a country (China, İran etc.) for operation and there are no airplanes in the air at that time, or hiding in a mountainous area. And the Chinese plane fell behind the American plane. How they thinks to defend themself without dogfight. Can anyone explain this?

If something works theoretically, maybe it will work in practice. But if something doesn't work theoretically, it doesn't work surely in practice.

F-35 is only useful against pajama-wearing, AK-wielding insurgents in countries like Iraq and Syria. It has no chance operating against a well-financed, advanced military like Russia, China, or any other G20-level country, who have the capability to develop or purchase "meter wave radars" that can pick planes like the F-22 and F-35 apart from hundreds of miles away.

Remember... US didn't want to give Turkey the F-35 while we have the S-400 because it was going to reveal the utter BULLSHIT that is "steeaalthhhh", which means US losing BILLIONS in current and future orders. F-35 has been BUSTED!

And the funny thing is, this stealth-defeating technology isn't even new. It dates back to the WW2.

 

[Saithan]

Until s400 shoots down or tracks f35, we're all talking smack. I don't think Israel would buy crap tbh. Overpriced as it may be. But let's just wait and see. No need to cry over spilled milk.

 

[KAL-EL]

Until s400 shoots down or tracks f35, we're all talking smack. I don't think Israel would buy crap tbh. Overpriced as it may be. But let's just wait and see. No need to cry over spilled milk.

This ^^

 

[OldTwilight]

F35 is good but not that good. It's hyped up a lot and does not do anything new that other jets can't already do.

F16 is still the most versatile jet out there, and best value for money.

What Turkey lacks with the F35, they make up with improvised stealth capabilities on F16.

Good example of this is when Turkey shot down two Syrian Su-24 last month. Turkey used their F16 to launch AMRAAM AIM-120C at Syrian jets and then turned all its radar off. The Turkish F16's sent a datalink to a nearby Boeing 737 E-7 AEW&C, AMRAAM's were guided by the radar of E-7 AEW&C to the target while F-16 was invisible to the radar of Syrian jets. The Su-24 likely did not even know they were being fire upon until the radar in the AMRAAM turned on seconds before impact and the Su-24 RADAR warning receiver even had a chance to detect what was happening.

In a dogfight, an F16 with a good pilot is better than an F35 with a good pilot.

US officially admits that performance of F35 is worse than the F16 but they claim it doesn't matter because nowadays its all about tactical stealth and US believes the age of dogfights is over. Hopefully nobody is stupid enough to believe that. This is basically a way of saying that US knows that an F35 will lose to an F16 if it finds itself in a dogfight where stealth capability is useless against an F16 that can outgun it on performance metrics.

Stealth doesn’t help when dogfights are still common, and as long as that is the case, F16 will always have an edge over the F35. F35 relies on being far away and having stealth but is not an agile jet with high power-weight ratio. F35 cannot get too close to its target or it will have a hard time escaping a more agile jet like F16. The closer an F35 gets to an F16, F35 becomes more vulnerable and F16 becomes more lethal. This is why F35's are typically escorted by other jets for defense but F16 can attack on solo mission.

Dogfights aren't going away any time soon, and the advantage of an Israeli F35 will be worth nothing if it gets into a dogfight against an F16. Stealth doesn't matter in dogfights, only the pilot's skills. F16 is a pilot's plane and F35 isn't. If an Israeli F35 ever gets shot down, I expect it to be at the hands of a more agile Turkish F16.

Also Turkey has drones anyway which are much more effective and cheaper than both F16 and F35.

Ultimate troll would be if one day Turkey makes their own drone fighter that shoots down an F35 some day.

so what if the enemy deploy its own Electornic warfare !?
and the moment the enemy spot the Awacks in his defined danger zone , they simply will get alert and then the chance for surprise attack will be gone.

The Americans knew this kind of stuff that why they spend money on developing 5th fighter jets ....

One of the main task of F35 fighter is to performs surprise surgical attack on high value assets of the enemy .


Some historical Fact : the Kill rate of Iranian F14 vs Iraqis 3th and 4th gen fighters is something like 150 vs 2 . and Iran couldn't operate its own F14 in its full capability due the lack of support from the producer and purging of air force officers , generals , pilots .

In a dogfight, an F16 with a good pilot is better than an F35 with a good pilot.

If you have better fighter , you can pass 8 years old war without hardly entering any dog fight --> some fact from Iraq-Iran war .
and Iranian fighters didn't have AWACS support as well .

Turkey's defense budget is over US $ 18.97B (2018.). Spending an amount of US $ 20 billion to buy 100 Su-57s with TOT is very easy. This amount can be paid in installments over a period of 2-4 years.

well , in the best days , Russians won't sell their third rate fighters without major downgrading.
They probably won't sell any good fighter to countries which can use them against the core of their country like Turkey and Iran , which they also have bitter history with both of them ...

The best thing you can hope to them is TOT of Su-30 or some years later, TOT of su-35 . Although in meanwhile they simply can use you as a card in their relation with the west and withdraw from the project ....

Example : Iran Shafagh project which was a joint project we started in 2001-2003 with Russians, in middle of it, they simply pull out and even refused to sell RD-33 engine to us ...

Shafaq was an light fighter with reduced RCS which we hoped to replace our F-5 , F-1 Mirage , F-7 with it .

Only a fool or someone who has no other alternative will put his eggs on Russians basket .

no f-5 pilot.

well , his idea is not valid

 

[zhxy]

well , in the best days , Russians won't sell their third rate fighters without major downgrading.
They probably won't sell any good fighter to countries which can use them against the core of their country like Turkey and Iran , which they also have bitter history with both of them ...

The best thing you can hope to them is TOT of Su-30 or some years later, TOT of su-35 . Although in meanwhile they simply can use you as a card in their relation with the west and withdraw from the project ....

Example : Iran Shafagh project which was a joint project we started in 2001-2003 with Russians, in middle of it, they simply pull out and even refused to sell RD-33 engine to us ...

No country is willing to transfer information related to engine and material technology. But Russians now desperately need money.
Iran instead of buying the engine directly, could spend 2 billion usd to hire the Russians to design a new engine and receive TOT

 

[OldTwilight]

Believing that F35s will hit every target from a far distance is a crap, isn't it?
For example, F35s entered the depths of a country (China, İran etc.) for operation and there are no airplanes in the air at that time, or hiding in a mountainous area. And the Chinese plane fell behind the American plane. How they thinks to defend themself without dogfight. Can anyone explain this?

If something works theoretically, maybe it will work in practice. But if something doesn't work theoretically, it doesn't work surely in practice.

well, USA strategy is simple,
1- Use Cruise, Ballistic missile to target high value assets of a country (Airbase, Radar sites, Powerhouse, ...)
2- Use Squadron of fighters to destroy the Anti Air defense system
3- Use Squadron of fighters to destroy the Air base
4- After destroying enemy air force assets and reducing it danger, use more surgical attack ...

The key point is that a squadron or a group of fighter will do the attack not just some lone jet fighters .... so in likely scenario if F35 want to attack some place at least 4 planes will participate, 2 of them will guard the two other fighters which will conduct the attack ...

so the best way to defend against the USA air force is to force them to operate from more distance air bases by destroying the air base close to your border or destroying air craft carriers , which F35B is there to answer this challenge by its vertical take off capability .

No country is willing to transfer information related to engine and material technology. But Russians now desperately need money.
Iran instead of buying the engine directly, could spend 2 billion usd to hire the Russians to design a new engine and receive TOT

Producing reliable turbo fan engine in mass quantity (at lease 100 -200 engine per year) need industrial base worse of trillion dollars ...
Iran is sanctioned and cannot buy some specialized alloys and materials which will force us to spend more additional money in discovering and creating material we need which is even harder than designing the engine itself ... the funny part is that after producing the alloy you need , you have to spend time and money to learn " how I should shape this alloy that I created !? "

 

[zhxy]

That is asymmetric war. So Iran invested all its money in rocket development and building underground tunnels.This is a very effective strategy

Producing reliable turbo fan engine in mass quantity (at lease 100 -200 engine per year) need industrial base worse of trillion dollars ...
Iran is sanctioned and cannot buy some specialized alloys and materials which will force us to spend more additional money in discovering and creating material we need which is even harder than designing the engine itself ... the funny part is that after producing the alloy you need , you have to spend time and money to learn " how I should shape this alloy that I created !? "

In the past, Vietnam chose to buy israel's Galil assault rifle, not Russia's ak-100. Because of the cheaper price of Israel, another reason is that Israel is willing to transfer more technology to Vietnam. However, there is no way to 100% homemade because the Vietnamese industry is not strong enough to create suitable steel billets. And neither country is willing to transfer technology related to metallurgy

 

[OldTwilight]

That is asymmetric war. So Iran invested all its money in rocket development and building underground tunnels.This is a very effective strategy

Lets don't talk about Iran , Turkey has project to build its air defence system , and their project was ongoing and they could as the western or eastern countries and company to help them in developing the system ( just like SK , Japan , China , .... ) but suddenly they decide to withdraw from F35 project for buying S400 ...

lets just check simple matter :
S400 : only has defensive capability
F35 : has both defensive and offensive capability

F35 operating cost is high , so what , in WWII USA had 20,000 plane , now they have only 3000 Fighters, when a device become more advance and doing too many things , then the cost of using it will get higher. That some simple fact.

That is asymmetric war. So Iran invested all its money in rocket development and building underground tunnels.This is a very effective strategy



In the past, Vietnam chose to buy israel's Galil assault rifle, not Russia's ak-100. Because of the cheaper price of Israel, another reason is that Israel is willing to transfer more technology to Vietnam. However, there is no way to 100% homemade because the Vietnamese industry is not strong enough to create suitable steel billets. And neither country is willing to transfer technology related to metallurgy

I assume you already saw good old bulb lamp , this use tungsten string, as per sanction, Tungesten is dual use material (is used in anti tank shell and high velocity projectiles), so we even had hard time to buy Tungesten even for producing bulb lamp.

 

[Mithridates]

well , his idea is not valid

he said due to new and sophisticated ECM, towed decoys, jammers... simply radar guided missiles will lose their effectiveness.
also he had an other point, he said if stealth was/is the magic solution for every thing then why f-22 has maximum AoA of 70 degrees, turn rate of +35 degrees and +1 thrust/weight ratio??

 

[OldTwilight]

he said due to new and sophisticated ECM, towed decoys, jammers... simply radar guided missiles will lose their effectiveness.
also he had an other point, he said if stealth was/is the magic solution for every thing then why f-22 has maximum AoA of 70 degrees, turn rate of +35 degrees and +1 thrust/weight ratio??

Because American could add all these characteristic to the plane, and they simply did it to have advantage in every field ...
And , the problem is that USA is one of the best countries when it comes to Electronic warfare , so its likely they can break the enemy system signal while their own system are intact ...