What's new

How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane

Thunder.Storm

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
584
Reaction score
0
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
by DAVID AXE

From all the recent sounds of celebrating coming out of Washington, D.C., you might think the Pentagon’s biggest, priciest and most controversial warplane development had accelerated right past all its problems.

The price tag —currently an estimated $1 trillion to design, build and operate 2,400 copies—is steadily going down. Production of dozens of the planes a year for the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps is getting easier. Daily flight tests increasingly are hitting all the right marks.

Or so proponents would have you believe.

“The program appears to have stabilized,” Michael Sullivan from the Government Accountability Office told Congress. “I’m encouraged by what I’ve seen,” chimed in Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, head of the program on the government side. When War is Boring asked Lockheed spokesman Laura Siebert about the F-35, she said she expected a “much more positive” article than usual owing to what she described as the program’s “significant progress.”

But the chorus of praise is wrong.
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter — a do-it-all strike jet being designed by Lockheed Martin to evade enemy radars, bomb ground targets and shoot down rival fighters — is as troubled as ever. Any recent tidbits of apparent good news can’t alter a fundamental flaw in the plane’s design with roots going back decades.

Owing to heavy design compromises foisted on the plane mostly by the Marine Corps, the F-35 is an inferior combatant, seriously outclassed by even older Russian and Chinese jets that can fly faster and farther and maneuver better. In a fast-moving aerial battle, the JSF “is a dog … overweight and underpowered,” according to Winslow Wheeler, director of the Straus Military Reform Project at the Project on Government Oversight in Washington, D.C.

And future enemy planes, designed strictly with air combat in mind, could prove even deadlier to the compromised JSF.

It doesn’t really matter how smoothly Lockheed and the government’s work on the new warplane proceeds. Even the best-manufactured JSF is a second-rate fighter where it actually matters — in the air, in life-or-death combat against a determined foe. And that could mean a death sentence for American pilots required to fly the vulnerable F-35.

Capture.JPG

The F-35's inferiority became glaringly obvious five years ago in a computer simulation run by John Stillion and Harold Scott Perdue, two analysts at RAND, a think tank in Santa Monica, California. Founded in 1948, RAND maintains close ties to the Air Force. The air arm provides classified data, and in return RAND games out possible war scenarios for government planners.

In Stillion and Perdue’s August 2008 war simulation, a massive Chinese air and naval force bore down on Beijing’s longtime rival Taiwan amid rising tensions in the western Pacific. A sudden Chinese missile barrage wiped out the tiny, outdated Taiwanese air force, leaving American jet fighters based in Japan and Guam to do battle with Beijing’s own planes and, hopefully, forestall a bloody invasion.

In the scenario, 72 Chinese jets patrolled the Taiwan Strait. Just 26 American warplanes — the survivors of a second missile barrage targeting their airfields — were able to intercept them, including 10 twin-engine F-22 stealth fighters that quickly fired off all their missiles.

That left 16 of the smaller, single-engine F-35s to do battle with the Chinese. As they began exchanging fire with the enemy jets within the mathematical models of the mock conflict, the results were shocking.

America’s newest stealth warplane and the planned mainstay of the future Air Force and the air arms of the Navy and Marine Corps, was no match for Chinese warplanes. Despite their vaunted ability to evade detection by radar, the JSFs were blown out of the sky. “The F-35 is double-inferior,” Stillion and Perdue moaned in their written summary of the war game, later leaked to the press.
Capture1.JPG

The analysts railed against the new plane, which to be fair played only a small role in the overall simulation. “Inferior acceleration, inferior climb [rate], inferior sustained turn capability,” they wrote. “Also has lower top speed. Can’t turn, can’t climb, can’t run.” Once missiles and guns had been fired and avoiding detection was no longer an option — in all but the first few seconds of combat, in other words — the F-35 was unable to keep pace with rival planes.

And partly as a result, the U.S. lost the simulated war. Hundreds of computer-code American air crew perished. Taiwan fell to the 1s and 0s representing Chinese troops in Stillion and Perdue’s virtual world. Nearly a century of American air superiority ended among the wreckage of simulated warplanes, scattered across the Pacific.

In a September 2008 statement Lockheed shot back against the war game’s results, insisting the F-35 was capable of “effectively meeting” the “aggressive operational challenges” presented in the Taiwan scenario. RAND backed away from the report, claiming it was never about jet-to-jet comparisons, and Stillion and Perdue soon left the think tank. Stillion is now at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments think tank in Washington, D.C. Perdue currently works for Northrop Grumman.
1*3MWsXkHj9jgI9xiZus9Ryg.jpeg

Steve O’Bryan, a Lockheed vice president and former fighter pilot, targeted the war game analysis and its authors. “It was policy people who did that report, [people] with no airplane experience,” O’Bryan said, adding that many critics of the F-35 “are people who are self-proclaimed experts who live in their mom’s basement and wear slippers to work.”

But Stillion and Perdue are both veteran aviators. Stillion flew in RF-4 recon planes and Perdue in F-15s during the Gulf War. “I don’t live in my mom’s basement,” Perdue said.

Even if its results were disputable, the 2008 war game should have been a wake-up call. Since the mid-1990s the Pentagon has utterly depended on the F-35 to replenish its diminishing arsenal of warplanes built mostly in the 1970s and 1980s. If there’s even a small chance the new plane can’t fight, the Pentagon should be very, very worried.

Indeed, the military should have been concerned more than 40 years ago.
Among the pathologies inherent in the F-35's design, by far the most damaging is the result of a peculiar institutional obsession by one of the new plane’s three main customers. Early on, the Marine Corps contrived to equip the JSF as a “jump jet,” able to take off and land vertically like a helicopter — a gimmick that the Marines have long insisted would make its fighters more flexible, but which has rarely worked in combat.

The JSF comes in three variants — one each for the Air Force, Navy and Marines — all sharing a mostly common fuselage, engine, radar and weapons. The wings and vertical-takeoff gear vary between models.
1*CNdtrWZbs_u5S4uRlFCo5w.jpeg

Altogether the three F-35 variants are meant to replace around a dozen older plane types from half a dozen manufacturers, ranging from the Air Force’s maneuverable, supersonic F-16 to the slow-flying, heavily armored A-10 and, most consequentially, the Marines’ AV-8B Harrier, an early-generation jump jet whose unique flight characteristics do not blend well with those of other plane types.

Engineering compromises forced on the F-35 by this unprecedented need for versatility have taken their toll on the new jet’s performance. Largely because of the wide vertical-takeoff fan the Marines demanded, the JSF is wide, heavy and has high drag, and is neither as quick as an F-16 nor as toughly constructed as an A-10. The jack-of-all-trades JSF has become the master of none.

And since the F-35 was purposely set up as a monopoly, replacing almost every other warplane in the Pentagon’s inventory, there are fewer and fewer true alternatives. In winning the 2001 competition to build the multipurpose JSF, Lockheed set a course to eventually becoming America’s sole active builder of new-generation jet fighters, leaving competitors such as Boeing pushing older warplane designs.

Which means that arguably the worst new jet fighter in the world, which one Australian military analyst-turned-politician claimed would be “clubbed like baby seals” in combat, could soon also be America’s only new jet fighter.

Where once mighty American warplanes soared over all others, giving Washington a distinct strategic advantage against any foe, in coming decades the U.S. air arsenal will likely be totally outclassed on a plane-by-plane basis by any country possessing the latest Russian and Chinese models — one of which, ironically, appears to be an improved copy of the JSF … minus all its worst design elements.

If the unthinkable happens and sometime in the next 40 years a real war — as opposed to a simulation — breaks out over Taiwan or some other hot spot, a lot of U.S. jets could get shot down and a lot of American pilots killed. Battles could be lost. Wars could be forfeit.
0*SnC2u-iBb3ZnVWg1.jpeg

The F-35 that could have been
At least twice since 2007 Chinese hackers have stolen data on the F-35 from the developers’ poorly-guarded computer servers, potentially including detailed design specifications. Some of the Internet thieves “appear to be tied to the Chinese government and military,” Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel claimed.
The September 2012 debut of China’s latest jet fighter prototype, the J-31, seemed to confirm Hagel’s accusation. The new Chinese plane, built by the Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, bears an uncanny external resemblance to the F-35: same twin tail fins, same chiseled nose, same wing shape. “It certainly looks like the Chinese got their hands on some [F-35] airframe data,” said Richard Aboulafia, a vice president at the Teal Group, an arms industry consultancy in Virginia.

But the J-31 lacks many of the features that were included in the F-35 “mainly or entirely because of STOVL,” according to Aviation Week writer and fighter expert Bill Sweetman.

Namely, the J-31 does not have a lift fan or even a space for a lift fan. The omission apparently allowed Chinese engineers to optimize the new plane for speed, acceleration, maneuverability and flying range — and to add good pilot visibility and a second rearward engine — instead of having to build the plane around a pretty much useless vertical-takeoff capability that slows it down, limits it to one motor and blocks the pilot’s view.

It could be that China doesn’t know how to build a working lift fan and that’s why they left it off, Aboulafia said. But for a country that has unveiled two different radar-evading stealth warplane prototypes in just the last two years, that seems unlikely. It’s more plausible that China could build a lift fan-equipped plane and has chosen not to.

The F-35 was compromised by, well, compromise. A warplane can be maneuverable like the F-16, tough like the A-10, stealthy like the F-117 or a STOVL model like the Harrier. A plane might even combine some of these qualities, as in the case of Lockheed’s nimble, radar-evading F-22. But it’s unrealistic to expect a single jet design to do everything with equal aplomb. Most of all, it’s foolish to believe a jet can launch and land vertically — a seriously taxing aerodynamic feat — and also do anything else well.

Jet design like any engineering practice requires disciplined choices. The JSF is the embodiment of ambivalence — a reflection of the government and Lockheed’s inability to say that some things could not or should not be done. “It’s not clear with the F-35 that we had a strong sense of what the top priority was — trying to satisfy the Marines, the Navy or the Air Force,” said Air Force Lt. Col. Dan Ward, an expert in weapons acquisition who has been critical of complex, expensive development efforts.

By contrast, the Chinese J-31 does not appear compromised at all. Surrounded by rivals with powerful air forces — namely India, Russia, Japan and U.S. Pacific Command — and with no grudge-holding Marine Corps to hijack fighter design, it would make sense that China prioritized the air-combat prowess of its new jet over any historical score-settling.

That apparently apolitical approach to (admittedly illicit) warplane design appears to have paid dividends for the Shenyang-made jet. “With no lift fan bay to worry about, the designers have been able to install long weapon bays on the centerline,” Sweetman wrote. The centerline bay helps keep the J-31 skinny and therefore likely fast and maneuverable — in any event, faster and more maneuverable than the F-35, which in a decade’s time could be pretty much the only new U.S. jet the Chinese air force might face in battle.

If Stillion and Perdue’s simulation ever comes true and the U.S. goes to war with China in the air, F-35s dragged down by their lift fans could be knocked out of the sky by Chinese-made F-35 clones that are faster and more maneuverable, because they never had lift fans.

Sprey, the fighter engineer, said he expects the Pentagon to eventually come to terms with the unpleasant truth, that its new universal jet fighter with the foolhardy vertical-takeoff capability could spell the end of an epochal half-century in which America truly dominated the world’s skies. “My prediction is the F-35 will be such an embarrassment it will be cancelled before 500 are built,” he said.

Straus Military Reform Project Director Wheeler advocated replacing the F-35 with upgraded A-10s and F-16s pulled from desert storage plus new Navy F-18s fresh off the Boeing production line. These moves would “reverse the continuing decay in our air forces,” Wheeler claimed.

Ward said any future warplane should have clear and narrow requirements, as opposed to the F-35's broad, incompatible guidelines. Development timelines should be fast, budgets should be inexpensive, the overall concept should be simple and hardware should be as tiny as possible, Ward recommended. “What you don’t do is hold up complexity as a desirable attribute,” he said.

F’d: How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane — War Is Boring — Medium
 
yep, no need to do anything about it, its the world's worst warplane, we suckered everyone into buying it, including the US navy and U{S airforce, who couldn't give 2 shits about their mission and purpose of being if it fattened the corporate pockets!
F
China and Russia have absolutely no need to worry, your J-30 and Pak-FA will blow us out of the water, hell you can invade Ukraine, Poland, Taiwan,Japan and Guam at will! we can't do anything!

CDQRfplUIAANl94.jpg
 
In Stillion and Perdue’s August 2008 war simulation, a massive Chinese air and naval force bore down on Beijing’s longtime rival Taiwan amid rising tensions in the western Pacific. A sudden Chinese missile barrage wiped out the tiny, outdated Taiwanese air force, leaving American jet fighters based in Japan and Guam to do battle with Beijing’s own planes and, hopefully, forestall a bloody invasion.
@jhungary without going into the details of the rest of the article, do read about the missile barrage :) kind of what I stated if you remember. I graciously accept your being wrong and me being right :P
 
That 's a crappy article.

The F-35 will dominate the skies for decades to come.
 
@jhungary without going into the details of the rest of the article, do read about the missile barrage :) kind of what I stated if you remember. I graciously accept your being wrong and me being right :P

LOL, David Axe, that's enough said.

An article written by nobody trying to sell his own blog, and I am afraid this article did not show F-35 suckered foreign foreign investor, but rather suckered in ignorant and feeble person who actually think this article worth something.

Your thesis that you are in the right and I am in the wrong is due by this part and this part only

In Stillion and Perdue’s August 2008 war simulation, a massive Chinese air and naval force bore down on Beijing’s longtime rival Taiwan amid rising tensions in the western Pacific. A sudden Chinese missile barrage wiped out the tiny, outdated Taiwanese air force, leaving American jet fighters based in Japan and Guam to do battle with Beijing’s own planes and, hopefully, forestall a bloody invasion.

First, the quote David Axes included is actually an article of his own blog, which again, written by another imbecile which did not even mention the condition of Stillion and Perdue’s August 2008 war simulation.

Secondly, the David Axe or any other dubbed "F-35 hater" seems to reluctant to include the whole detail of the stimulation......Why would it be, cause they are spinning the simulation to their own benefits.

The Simulation is assuming the Chinese have an supposedly edge over the US, and what would American do if that is the case, the sims, carried out not as a result of Chinese dominant of Missile Barrage, but rather put in a situation so that assuming China can dominant Taiwan by barrages of missile, and the situation is this, as listed in the simulation.

In the scenario, 72 Chinese jets patrolled the Taiwan Strait. Just 26 American warplanes,  the survivors of a second missile barrage targeting their airfields,  were able to intercept them, including 10 twin-engine F-22 stealth fighters that quickly fired off all their missiles. That left 16 of the smaller, single-engine F-35s to do battle with the Chinese. As they began exchanging fire with the enemy jets within the mathematical models of the mock conflict, the results were shocking.

Now, how would it make sense when only 26 American Jet up against 72 or more Chinese Jet that saturate the Missile Barrage? The US Aircraft Carrier in Japan itself have 46 fighter planes, 2 more LHD would give you another 30, then Airbases from Japan, Korea and Guam would make that number over 100. Now, the situation dictated that 26 airplanes were launch and airborne, it is a simulation criteria, it is not the result of simulation.

But yeah, China can saturate Taiwan with Missile Barrage and F-35 is useless in this given situation, but possible to China to actually achieve this hypothetical situation is another problem altogether, judging by the current defence situation in Taiwan, maybe when they were all asleep and US move almost all of the aircraft out???? I don't know


But then you will never hear David Axe et el mention this. Why? Isn't it obvious?

As I said, you have to be REALLY bored out to actually read any article from War is Boring
 
Last edited:
But then you will never hear David Axe et el mention this. Why? Isn't it obvious?
I said leaving aside the other facts of what the F 35 is capable of, because I respect the fighter alot, i was talking about missile barrages and the air force of Taiwan. the F 35 has been adapted after every simulation to take care of its weaknesses, that is why there are simulations....
 
The sole purpose of F-35 is to avert selling the F-22 raptor to israel
 
I said leaving aside the other facts of what the F 35 is capable of, because I respect the fighter alot, i was talking about missile barrages and the air force of Taiwan. the F 35 has been adapted after every simulation to take care of its weaknesses, that is why there are simulations....

Dude, did you read what I wrote??

The simulation "ASSUME" china can saturate Taiwanese defence by missile. Then investigate what can US F-35 and F-22 can do about it. The Simulation does not say how possible can China do it, but rather it put into a model by saying "Assuming" china can do it, then work on a point follow on.

If you take this as the simulation show the Chinese Actually can do it, like David Axe suggested, then, well, I don't know what to tell you
 
yep, no need to do anything about it, its the world's worst warplane, we suckered everyone into buying it, including the US navy and U{S airforce, who couldn't give 2 shits about their mission and purpose of being if it fattened the corporate pockets!
F
China and Russia have absolutely no need to worry, your J-30 and Pak-FA will blow us out of the water, hell you can invade Ukraine, Poland, Taiwan,Japan and Guam at will! we can't do anything!

CDQRfplUIAANl94.jpg

Now i know why people ignore you.
damn....
 
In the scenario, 72 Chines

e jets patrolled the Taiwan Strait. Just 26 American warplanes — the survivors of a second missile barrage targeting their airfields — were able to intercept them, including 10 twin-engine F-22 stealth fighters that quickly fired off all their missiles.

That left 16 of the smaller, single-engine F-35s to do battle with the Chinese. As they began exchanging fire with the enemy jets within the mathematical models of the mock conflict, the results were shocking.

America’s newest stealth warplane and the planned mainstay of the future Air Force and the air arms of the Navy and Marine Corps, was no match for Chinese warplanes. Despite their vaunted ability to evade detection by radar, the JSFs were blown out of the sky. “The F-35 is double-inferior,” Stillion and Perdue moaned in their written summaryof the war game, later leaked to the press.


interesting. anymore details on this??

this scenario seems kinda weird. it's assuming the Chinese knock out the Taiwan air force and cripples the U.S military in the area leaving the U.S with 26 fighters to do battle with 72 Chinese jets

what jet's are the Chinese using it doesn't say??? I would assume Flankers and J-20s?? what gives them the advantage over the F-35??

what other factors are at play

is this just jets vs jets no support craft??


10x F-22=60 AMRAAMS+20 AIM-9=80 A2A missiles
in theory 10 Raptors could wipe out 72 fighters, but that would mean a Pk 90% for each missile fire which I think is nearly impossible for even the best a2s missiles/ I think 60% is more likely so 10 raptors would knock out 60% of the Chinese fighters just by themselves and to say 16 F-35s couldn't finish off the 32 Chinese planes left seems funny to me.
 
Last edited:
Dude, did you read what I wrote??

The simulation "ASSUME" china can saturate Taiwanese defence by missile. Then investigate what can US F-35 and F-22 can do about it. The Simulation does not say how possible can China do it, but rather it put into a model by saying "Assuming" china can do it, then work on a point follow on.

If you take this as the simulation show the Chinese Actually can do it, like David Axe suggested, then, well, I don't know what to tell you
Exercises done by the US military make plenty of these kinds of assumptions. For example, the Red Air Force is allowed unlimited regeneration, assuming overwhelming enemy resources at hand, while the Blue Air Force is often attrit at varying degrees with no allowance of resupply and/or reinforcement at all.

These guys do not realize that when Americans play war games, at least how the USAF does it, we often rig the exercise to make the Blue force lose. The idea is to stress everything, from humans to machines to logistics, to their failure points. When I was active duty and in England, we had NATO inspectors walk the area telling maintainers who 'died' and who got 'wounded', and those who got 'wounded' became demerits for efficiency or simulated inefficiency. For example, if a jet was fixed in 1 hr, it was not allowed to be on the sortie list for 2 hrs, simulating inefficiency from the 'wounded' man. The idea was to see how many maintainers a squadron could lose, or how many supply trucks are 'destroyed', or how badly damaged is the ammo dump, before the squadron can no longer contribute flyers to the day's sorties. The longer any squadron can contribute, the closer that squadron is examined after the exercise to see why and if whatever it has can be replicated.

If we go by how people here know and perceive exercises, the US military should have lost every fight since WW II. I tried to explain in the past that we do not have exercises to make ourselves look good but often to see how far we can go before we fail. I suggested people should take news reports and commentaries with suspicions because usually the reporter/commentator do not have the necessary clue on how the military run things. Does not seems to sink in. They all seems to go to see how much they can post derogatory things about the US.
 
Last edited:
If we go by how people here know and perceive exercises, the US military should have lost every fight since WW II.
Which war US has won since WWII? Fielding top notch technology and in swarms against pathetically -equipped and poorly -trained North Koreans and North Vietnamese was a win? or fighting against a decade embargoed Iraqis? or Libyans? or a professional military-less Afghanistan?
 
Back
Top Bottom