How Much of Indian History Is Really True?

[Hellfire]

You are absolutely wasting ur time with these trolls. first the discussion you are having with them has nothing to do with the main topic. Second the moment India is mentioned any where some ppl start thinking with their butts. We all know the reason why they are filled with such paranoia. Just avoid responding to them, they can burn within.

Not an issue with @PaklovesTurkiye for me. He will read.

There is a lot of research on the topic, will post references when i have time to. But the point remains, india was more or less the whole of subcontinent way back in history as well. the notion that it was demarcated by britishers is a fallacy.

Agreed. I only quoted you on the specific aspect which you didnt note .... about persian thing.

It is a waste of time actually to discuss this. No one wants to accept facts. And then there is the rabid requirement to dissociate ones self from a common history.

One needs to look at it from a need for an ideological state to constantly justify itself. Hence, every once in a while an Einstein will come along claiming direct descendancy from Muhammad bin Qasim and being the product of his loins since eternity.

That remains a result of a need to justify the existence as a separate state and to overlook/forget the history of introduction of Islam into the Indian subcontinent was more with violence than with peace, a result of capitulation of successive kingdoms and weak rulers. The fact that the invaders sought to justify a pure expedition of conquest and plunder by giving it religious color, is forgotten very quickly too. That is why, till date, the greatest genocide in history, that of people of India, where men were either killed or castrated and women raped/forced into slavery or convert, is neither acknowledged nor an attempt made to teach it.

@PaklovesTurkiye you will be revulsed if you read about the successive raids of India and the religious tones given to them and the actions thereof.

Look at things objectively. It is a collective legacy. And think, inspite of all this the nation existed as one till 1940. Why? How?

Because the legacy of people of India as existed before 1947, was and is common, the day religion came to fore, things went awry. Remember the Khilafat discussion and MA Jinnah discussion?

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Not an issue with @PaklovesTurkiye for me. He will read.




Agreed. I only quoted you on the specific aspect which you didnt note .... about persian thing.

It is a waste of time actually to discuss this. No one wants to accept facts. And then there is the rabid requirement to dissociate ones self from a common history.

One needs to look at it from a need for an ideological state to constantly justify itself. Hence, every once in a while an Einstein will come along claiming direct descendancy from Muhammad bin Qasim and being the product of his loins since eternity.

That remains a result of a need to justify the existence as a separate state and to overlook/forget the history of introduction of Islam into the Indian subcontinent was more with violence than with peace, a result of capitulation of successive kingdoms and weak rulers. The fact that the invaders sought to justify a pure expedition of conquest and plunder by giving it religious color, is forgotten very quickly too. That is why, till date, the greatest genocide in history, that of people of India, where men were either killed or castrated and women raped/forced into slavery or convert, is neither acknowledged nor an attempt made to teach it.

@PaklovesTurkiye you will be revulsed if you read about the successive raids of India and the religious tones given to them and the actions thereof.

Look at things objectively. It is a collective legacy. And think, inspite of all this the nation existed as one till 1940. Why? How?

Because the legacy of people of India as existed before 1947, was and is common, the day religion came to fore, things went awry. Remember the Khilafat discussion and MA Jinnah discussion?

Yes. I remember that one and will surely try to read what you recommended me....

 

[Max]

there is nothing as Indian history.. India was founded by brits..

 

[kṣamā]

So let me get this straight. After reading 3 pages of the thread this is what I get:-

There was nothing called India b4 1947. Its all a conspiracy that the this term is used b4 that period. Like there was no east INDIA company. There was no columbus searching for INDIA. He did not name native of an unknown land as INDIANS.

But Pakistan has 5000 yrs old history.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

resist to get your opinion on this above quoted post. Hope you don't mind...

Not a problem. What's in a name? A lot as we know. However it all depends what we associate or attach with a given name that is critical, not the name itself.

So for example "Kaptaan" has been around for centuries - does that mean this member has been around for centuries? Of course not. The name "Kaptaan" has been around for centuries and right now it refers to this member on this forum. The differant entities that were called "Kaptaans" were not me despite my name being the same. I can't configure some similarities like all the previous iterations called "Kaptaans" had two legs, two arms, mouth and therefore conclude I have existed through the centurties.

What we had was huge sub continent and differant threads evolved over time - many of course will have shared similiarities. We are all human. No siciety is entirely island unto itself. The Romans had borrowed almost 80% from the Greeks but that did not make them Roman. The Greeks had borrowed 80% from Phoenicians but that did not make them Phoniecians. All had borrowed from Egyptians but that did not make all Meditearnean Egyptians.

What these Ganga lot do is now that they have a country (as virgin as Pakistan as both dropped in 1947) but because Ganga carries the name "India" they think they now have ownership over the entire history of what the British built - British India.

If I ever took Pakistan over I would simply change the name of Pakistan to "Republic of Asia" and then claim that we have existed since eternity followed by claming everything from Istanbul, Turkey to Tokyo, Japan as our civilizational entity and history. Not that there is anything to claim on Ganga but I would pull the rug underneath them as well and claim Ganga as well. I would say Ganga is Asia is it not?

The best way for you to look at it is this way. If John had three sons. David, Steven and John Junior. Would John Jr start claiming he was born before his birthdate because his name was same as his father's?

......... > David.
John > Steven.
....... > John Jr.


It is this simple. Just because of a name the Ganga's think it entitles them (like John Junior in our example) to take ownership of everything. In the analogy given above alsp think of David, Steven and John having differant mothers. They would have elements in common but they would still be their own separate entities.

You may wonder how come they don't show the same zest for making these parasitical claims on Bangladesh or Burma? Why does Pakistan get all the attention? Simple reason because in historical terns the "crown jewels" belong to Indus. Thus avaricious Ganga covets the Indus.

And even the name "India" has not been around for eternity. It is English and the first recorded useage was about 1000AD but only came into currency after 1600AD. Prior to that differant names weere used as geographic denominators by Greeks, Persians and Romans. I will post a full article when I get the time.

I hope this helps.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Not a problem. What's in a name? A lot as we know. However it all depends what we associate or attach with a given name that is critical, not the name itself.

So for example "Kaptaan" has been around for centuries - does that mean this member has been around for centuries? Of course not. The name "Kaptaan" has been around for centuries and right now it refers to this member on this forum. The differant entities that were called "Kaptaans" were not me despite my name being the same. I can't configure some similarities like all the previous iterations called "Kaptaans" had two legs, two arms, mouth and therefore conclude I have existed through the centurties.

What we had was huge sub continent and differant threads evolved over time - many of course will have shared similiarities. We are all human. No siciety is entirely island unto itself. The Romans had borrowed almost 80% from the Greeks but that did not make them Roman. The Greeks had borrowed 80% from Phoenicians but that did not make them Phoniecians. All had borrowed from Egyptians but that did not make all Meditearnean Egyptians.

What these Ganga lot do is now that they have a country (as virgin as Pakistan as both dropped in 1947) but because Ganga carries the name "India" they think they now have ownership over the entire history of what the British built - British India.

If I ever took Pakistan over I would simply change the name of Pakistan to "Republic of Asia" and then claim that we have existed since eternity followed by claming everything from Istanbul, Turkey to Tokyo, Japan as our civilizational entity and history. Not that there is anything to claim on Ganga but I would pull the rug underneath them as well and claim Ganga as well. I would say Ganga is Asia is it not?

The best way for you to look at it is this way. If John had three sons. David, Steven and John Junior. Would John Jr start claiming he was born before his birthdate because his name was same as his father's?

......... > David.
John > Steven.
....... > John Jr.


It is this simple. Just because of a name the Ganga's think it entitles them (like John Junior in our example) to take ownership of everything. In the analogy given above alsp think of David, Steven and John having differant mothers. They would have elements in common but they would still be their own separate entities.

You may wonder how come they don't show the same zest for making these parasitical claims on Bangladesh or Burma? Why does Pakistan get all the attention? Simple reason because in historical terns the "crown jewels" belong to Indus. Thus avaricious Ganga covets the Indus.

And even the name "India" has not been around for eternity. It is English and the first recorded useage was about 1000AD but only came into currency after 1600AD. Prior to that differant names weere used as geographic denominators by Greeks, Persians and Romans. I will post a full article when I get the time.

I hope this helps.

Sir, I m so humbled..Thanks for giving me dose of tremendous stuff....I m slowly starting to grasp what this is all about....I can't wait for your article....I m that much excited...Thanks...I will surely check it....

 

[Hellfire]

Sir, I m so humbled..Thanks for giving me dose of tremendous stuff....I m slowly starting to grasp what this is all about....I can't wait for your article....I m that much excited...Thanks...I will surely check it....

He has given you a very sensible answer. It is for you to decide what you want to follow.

Apart from his being the dour self in "ganga" people and "indus" people logic (a need to identify separately for the two nation theory to stick), one can argue the line which he has given you and it makes sense too.

That is why, I urged you to read the history dispassionately and understand it. Don't be guided by anyone over it.

Apart from trolling, which you indulge in quite enthusiastically, if you actually want to develop yourself, you must read all data given to you and decide for yourself. It need not conform with your national history, or your official history, never question that, but what, as a human, you know and decide for yourself, that should be your aim.

Cheers and see you around

 

[footmarks]

Not a problem. What's in a name? A lot as we know. However it all depends what we associate or attach with a given name that is critical, not the name itself.

So for example "Kaptaan" has been around for centuries - does that mean this member has been around for centuries? Of course not. The name "Kaptaan" has been around for centuries and right now it refers to this member on this forum. The differant entities that were called "Kaptaans" were not me despite my name being the same. I can't configure some similarities like all the previous iterations called "Kaptaans" had two legs, two arms, mouth and therefore conclude I have existed through the centurties.

What we had was huge sub continent and differant threads evolved over time - many of course will have shared similiarities. We are all human. No siciety is entirely island unto itself. The Romans had borrowed almost 80% from the Greeks but that did not make them Roman. The Greeks had borrowed 80% from Phoenicians but that did not make them Phoniecians. All had borrowed from Egyptians but that did not make all Meditearnean Egyptians.

What these Ganga lot do is now that they have a country (as virgin as Pakistan as both dropped in 1947) but because Ganga carries the name "India" they think they now have ownership over the entire history of what the British built - British India.

If I ever took Pakistan over I would simply change the name of Pakistan to "Republic of Asia" and then claim that we have existed since eternity followed by claming everything from Istanbul, Turkey to Tokyo, Japan as our civilizational entity and history. Not that there is anything to claim on Ganga but I would pull the rug underneath them as well and claim Ganga as well. I would say Ganga is Asia is it not?

The best way for you to look at it is this way. If John had three sons. David, Steven and John Junior. Would John Jr start claiming he was born before his birthdate because his name was same as his father's?

......... > David.
John > Steven.
....... > John Jr.


It is this simple. Just because of a name the Ganga's think it entitles them (like John Junior in our example) to take ownership of everything. In the analogy given above alsp think of David, Steven and John having differant mothers. They would have elements in common but they would still be their own separate entities.

You may wonder how come they don't show the same zest for making these parasitical claims on Bangladesh or Burma? Why does Pakistan get all the attention? Simple reason because in historical terns the "crown jewels" belong to Indus. Thus avaricious Ganga covets the Indus.

And even the name "India" has not been around for eternity. It is English and the first recorded useage was about 1000AD but only came into currency after 1600AD. Prior to that differant names weere used as geographic denominators by Greeks, Persians and Romans. I will post a full article when I get the time.

I hope this helps.

Good argument, but you can't simply pick and choose the good parts of history and drop off the bad parts. Whatever you claim , claim in full. Historic civilization is mine but the religion that the civilization had is not mine. Pakistan is the place where all of indus valley civilization was (which itself is wrong, indus valley artifacts are spread as far as eastern UP in India), but we are authentic pure bred arabs and not forcefully converted hindus. you denounced the religion, you denounced the culture, you denounced the rituals but you claim the history.

 

[Hellfire]

Not a problem. What's in a name? A lot as we know. However it all depends what we associate or attach with a given name that is critical, not the name itself.

So for example "Kaptaan" has been around for centuries - does that mean this member has been around for centuries? Of course not. The name "Kaptaan" has been around for centuries and right now it refers to this member on this forum. The differant entities that were called "Kaptaans" were not me despite my name being the same. I can't configure some similarities like all the previous iterations called "Kaptaans" had two legs, two arms, mouth and therefore conclude I have existed through the centurties.

What we had was huge sub continent and differant threads evolved over time - many of course will have shared similiarities. We are all human. No siciety is entirely island unto itself. The Romans had borrowed almost 80% from the Greeks but that did not make them Roman. The Greeks had borrowed 80% from Phoenicians but that did not make them Phoniecians. All had borrowed from Egyptians but that did not make all Meditearnean Egyptians.

What these Ganga lot do is now that they have a country (as virgin as Pakistan as both dropped in 1947) but because Ganga carries the name "India" they think they now have ownership over the entire history of what the British built - British India.

If I ever took Pakistan over I would simply change the name of Pakistan to "Republic of Asia" and then claim that we have existed since eternity followed by claming everything from Istanbul, Turkey to Tokyo, Japan as our civilizational entity and history. Not that there is anything to claim on Ganga but I would pull the rug underneath them as well and claim Ganga as well. I would say Ganga is Asia is it not?

The best way for you to look at it is this way. If John had three sons. David, Steven and John Junior. Would John Jr start claiming he was born before his birthdate because his name was same as his father's?

......... > David.
John > Steven.
....... > John Jr.


It is this simple. Just because of a name the Ganga's think it entitles them (like John Junior in our example) to take ownership of everything. In the analogy given above alsp think of David, Steven and John having differant mothers. They would have elements in common but they would still be their own separate entities.

You may wonder how come they don't show the same zest for making these parasitical claims on Bangladesh or Burma? Why does Pakistan get all the attention? Simple reason because in historical terns the "crown jewels" belong to Indus. Thus avaricious Ganga covets the Indus.

And even the name "India" has not been around for eternity. It is English and the first recorded useage was about 1000AD but only came into currency after 1600AD. Prior to that differant names weere used as geographic denominators by Greeks, Persians and Romans. I will post a full article when I get the time.

I hope this helps.

Rancid, yet eloquent. I hate it!!! I don't agree with it at all. (simply admire it)

@footmarks Leave it. The identity crisis is too deep to ignore. You must understand that. On the other hand, you can simply amuse yourself thinking over the history.

Is it not interesting that Hindus lost always? Perhaps, that should be the point to contemplate.

 

[django]

Absolutely incorrect. India, has been mentioned since the times of Alexanderic invasions. You started factually wrong and falsified history on this base and effectively derailed a great topic.




Reference this please. Then let me know origin of Persians.




Off topic. It was a stalemate. Both Pakistan and now India fool themselves. Politically, Pakistan lost (failed to achieve political goal), militarily status quo maintained.




Who wrote this drivel?


It is indeed hilarious to see either Pakistani or Indian members claim right to ownership to the history or deny thereof.

To claim India did not exist, is a fallacy as the word in its various forms, describing the territories between HinduKush till Bengal inclusive of peninsular India, has been mentioned from the era of the spread of the Macedonian empire, depending on the language and dialect of the author.

While @django has basically trolled the thread all over by making one after the other statements (ably assisted by our Indian members too) questioning the use of India to describe a nation, he has failed to take into account any nation, which has evolved over centuries, which has similar history, and failed to debunk the same also, giving a narrative of any ancient state that has remained as a static entity till date.

The ancient civilizations of China, India, Assyria, Mesopotamia. Egypt, all arose in small geographical areas/pockets and expanded over a period of time, purely to do with the population and the technological advances at the time, to name a few.

Evolution of a nation state is neither a static event nor a consistent one. Britain, originated in 4th Century BC when it was first mentioned in Pytheas of Massalia. Similarly, the origin of India can be traced depending on which literature is consulted.

My dear chap your entire post can be summed up in two words "PEDANTIC DRIVEL".Kudos

 

[Max]

Good argument, but you can't simply pick and choose the good parts of history and drop off the bad parts. Whatever you claim , claim in full. Historic civilization is mine but the religion that the civilization had is not mine. Pakistan is the place where all of indus valley civilization was (which itself is wrong, indus valley artifacts are spread as far as eastern UP in India), but we are authentic pure bred arabs and not forcefully converted hindus. you denounced the religion, you denounced the culture, you denounced the rituals but you claim the history.

No one recognize your fake sites, even if we recognize those part of dirt as some ancient sites, they are still not older then sites in indus region.. Which may have been built by follower of our ancestors..

No one claim arab ancestors here, no more then 5% claim arab ancestory, other thing you gangalander forget that same happen to Afghans Iranian, egyption, romans, greeks.. They left religion of thier ancestors for Islam and Christianity.. And no one cry there so why should we Pakistani cry for ancient religion..

And what culture you talking about? As far as i know all Punjabi music, poetry, sikhism originated from our Punjab, your Punjab produce honey singh and drug addicts.. Largest basant festivs happen in Pakistan, even ur sikh come to celebrate here.. Our musician rule gangaland industry.. Actors with Pakistani ancestory like Khans, Kapoors, dutts, roshan rule ur film industry..

 

[Hellfire]

Last words on the topic.

Irrepective of whatever eloquence and intellectual rebuttals are posted, until and unless one absolutely negates the evolution of nation states and their dissolution, as applicable, as a dynamic and ongoing process, one can not deny the existence of India. The most common and relatively recent analogy can be of Germany (in Bismarck years) and China (till Tibet annexation: a treaty affirming the independence of Tibet had existed previously as signed by the Emperors over generations).

Rest all, as it is said, is a matter of perception and denial. Members are urged to read and decide for yourself. No single treatise will ever give you a dispassionate and complete picture.

Cheers and great day to all

 

[footmarks]

No one recognize your fake sites, even if we recognize those part of dirt as some ancient sites, they are still not older then sites in indus region.. Which may have been built by follower of our ancestors..

No one claim arab ancestors here, no more then 5% claim arab ancestory, other thing you gangalander forget that same happen to Afghans Iranian, egyption, romans, greek did.. They left religion of thier ancestors for Islam and Christianity.. And no one cry their so why should we Pakistani cry for ancient religion..

And what culture you talking about? As far as i know all Punjabi music, poetry, sikhism originated from our Punjab, your Punjab produce honey singh and drug addicts.. Largest basant festivs happen in Pakistan, even ur sikh come to celebrate here.. Our musician rule gangaland industry.. Actors with Pakistani ancestory like Khans, Kapoors, dutts, roshan rule ur film industry..

You, my friend, know nothing then. Anyways, be happy. I dont think we can agree on this.

 

[Braith]

Most of it

 

[Brickwall]

Yes, but at least they (Pakistan) are all parts of that Indus Jig Saw.

Bengali, Mahrata, Orrisan, Bihari, Malayalam, Tamil, Telegu, Assamese and the rest of the bunch don't even fit into the Indus Jig-Saw - that is 95% (Indian) of the Ganga jig-saw.

How come all pakistan are parts of Indus Jig saw, you mean to say Indus valley stayed there only and never expanded out and No outside people came and assimilated there.

And tell me where does the invaders who has come to this land came from i suppose they cross Himalayas or swam across Indian Ocean.

They all have a common faith which dictates to a large extent their cultural and spiritual values besides they are all sons of the Indus as kaptaan stated, whereas you guys are...........................Kudos

Common faith doesn't mean anything, if such was case entire ME would have been single country, Europe wouldn't have fought..and there is recent of example of country divided into two.............