How does Shaheen compare to Scuds?

[SipahSalar]

Are they very similar? Very different? If they are similar, what is the similarity? Or what is the difference between them?

 

[Indus Falcon]

Scud is nothing more than a long range rocket / artillery shell.

Without going into technical details - Shaheen is a missile.

If you know the difference between a rocket and a missile, you'll understand.

 

[Areesh]

What a pathetic thread...

 

[SipahSalar]

What a pathetic thread...

It's an educational thread. What's pathetic about it?

 

[MilSpec]

Nothing to do with Shaheen series of Missiles. But Ghauri is another story....

The Rodong-1 (spelled Nodong-1 or simply Nodong in South Korea) is a single stage, mobile liquid propellant medium range ballistic missile developed by North Korea. Developed in the mid-1980s, it is an adaptation of the Soviet SS-1, more commonly known by its NATO reporting name "Scud"


According to the American intelligence estimates in 1999, the Ghauri–I is influenced and its design development is based on the Rodong-1 missile of North Korea. According to the American Federation of Atomic Scientists, the Ghauri–I is believed to inherit a warhead spin-up mechanism from the Rodong 1 and it is stated that this feature could improve accuracy up to 190m CEP— although this is still debatable.

Unclassified Report to Congress, January - June 1999 — Central Intelligence Agency
Ghauri [Hatf-5] - Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems


Nodong Design heritage

No-Dong-A - North Korea

 

[Indus Falcon]

What a pathetic thread...[/

Nothing to do with Shaheen series of Missiles. But Ghauri is another story....

The Rodong-1 (spelled Nodong-1 or simply Nodong in South Korea) is a single stage, mobile liquid propellant medium range ballistic missile developed by North Korea. Developed in the mid-1980s, it is an adaptation of the Soviet SS-1, more commonly known by its NATO reporting name "Scud"


According to the American intelligence estimates in 1999, the Ghauri–I is influenced and its design development is based on the Rodong-1 missile of North Korea. According to the American Federation of Atomic Scientists, the Ghauri–I is believed to inherit a warhead spin-up mechanism from the Rodong 1 and it is stated that this feature could improve accuracy up to 190m CEP— although this is still debatable.

Unclassified Report to Congress, January - June 1999 — Central Intelligence Agency
Ghauri [Hatf-5] - Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems


Nodong Design heritage

No-Dong-A - North Korea

Ghauri has been retired from the Pakistani Strategic Forces Command. You can beat a dead horse as much you like, it's not going to reply!!

 

[Zarvan]

Ghauri has been retired from the Pakistani Strategic Forces Command. You can beat a dead horse as much you like, it's not going to reply!!

Are you sure ???

 

[Indus Falcon]

Are you sure ???

200%

 

[SQ8]

Nothing to do with Shaheen series of Missiles. But Ghauri is another story....

The Rodong-1 (spelled Nodong-1 or simply Nodong in South Korea) is a single stage, mobile liquid propellant medium range ballistic missile developed by North Korea. Developed in the mid-1980s, it is an adaptation of the Soviet SS-1, more commonly known by its NATO reporting name "Scud"


According to the American intelligence estimates in 1999, the Ghauri–I is influenced and its design development is based on the Rodong-1 missile of North Korea. According to the American Federation of Atomic Scientists, the Ghauri–I is believed to inherit a warhead spin-up mechanism from the Rodong 1 and it is stated that this feature could improve accuracy up to 190m CEP— although this is still debatable.

Unclassified Report to Congress, January - June 1999 — Central Intelligence Agency
Ghauri [Hatf-5] - Pakistan Missile Special Weapons Delivery Systems


Nodong Design heritage

No-Dong-A - North Korea

The FAS isnt wrong but not very reliable. The First Ghauri was a plain repainted Nodong(rodong) which went straight to AQK labs from NK. This was NOT a missile for nuke knowledge deal and rather a large sum was doled out to the NKs..

The progressive Ghauris had improvements from a hodgepodge of locations in terms of guidance and warhead design(think eastern Europe and South Korea ironically)..The same way the Nodong-2 became the second Ghauri.
The shaheen was the true indigenous missile( in relative terms anyway).. and had actual effort spent on it from scratch..unlike the Ghauri which was just repainted

 

[Indus Falcon]

I couldn't agree more with what you have said.

Just to add to your above statement: Ghauri was a stop gap measure/ deterrent, which besides being liquid fueled, became a headache to maintain in the field. Once Shaheen, which is a totally different beast, took over it's responsibilities, Ghauri was retired.

 

[Goenitz]

which besides being liquid fueled, became a headache to maintain in the field

ok save me from googling
do we have still any liquid rocket motor.? bcz liquid ones has higher impulse, control burning and vital for space programs....
yes tactically, they need 40 mint time to be fired as missile cannot keep liquid all time (leakages, sloshing etc)

 

[Indus Falcon]

ok save me from googling
do we have still any liquid rocket motor.? bcz liquid ones has higher impulse, control burning and vital for space programs....
yes tactically, they need 40 mint time to be fired as missile cannot keep liquid all time (leakages, sloshing etc)

 

[MilSpec]

The FAS isnt wrong but not very reliable. The First Ghauri was a plain repainted Nodong(rodong) which went straight to AQK labs from NK. This was NOT a missile for nuke knowledge deal and rather a large sum was doled out to the NKs..

The progressive Ghauris had improvements from a hodgepodge of locations in terms of guidance and warhead design(think eastern Europe and South Korea ironically)..The same way the Nodong-2 became the second Ghauri.
The shaheen was the true indigenous missile( in relative terms anyway).. and had actual effort spent on it from scratch..unlike the Ghauri which was just repainted

The intent of my post was to let the op know about roots of quite a few missiles lies in the Scud D and Scud A/B.

On a side note
Ghaznavi looks to be derived from M11 systems, and reported on quite extensively.

I thought Shaheen 1 is a airframe extension on Ghaznavi, but I might be wrong on that and will take your word on it.

M18 - two stage iteration of M9, looks a bit like the Shaheen II, are there any links there?

 

[SipahSalar]

ok save me from googling
do we have still any liquid rocket motor.? bcz liquid ones has higher impulse, control burning and vital for space programs....
yes tactically, they need 40 mint time to be fired as missile cannot keep liquid all time (leakages, sloshing etc)

Of course no one on the forum is actually qualified to comment on your question. How can we know if they still have the liquid fuel motors? I suspect, most probably they do. Because liquid fueled missiles are easier to deploy in submarines. Also, who the hell throws away a ballistic missiles parts anyways? Certainly not cash strapped Pakistan.

 

[SQ8]

The intent of my post was to let the op know about roots of quite a few missiles lies in the Scud D and Scud A/B.

On a side note
Ghaznavi looks to be derived from M11 systems, and reported on quite extensively.

I thought Shaheen 1 is a airframe extension on Ghaznavi, but I might be wrong on that and will take your word on it.

M18 - two stage iteration of M9, looks a bit like the Shaheen II, are there any links there?

The Ghaznavi is based on blueprints of the M-11. But is a different breed internally, with just the shell being similar, Shaheen-1 is as such an extension of the same "Shell" but the projects are unrelated in that the development of both proceeded independently. Basically, there are two "schools" of thought there were active within the Pakistani R&D scene during the 90s before AQK fell out of favour after his dealings were found to go beyond what the generals had authorized and themselves dipped in.

Both schools of thought however look to taking whatever path achieves the goal. So when it came to a ballistic systems category.. the scientists and engineers within the nuclear program who had really done their research soon found themselves being asked to develop missile systems.. and in the words of the ultimate high horse(who did not engage in proliferation) it meant going down to the library and rent books on basic rocketry and starting over.

In the meantime the establishment looked to procure missile systems and blueprints to try and give them a headstart. When the Chinese systems did arrive they arrived as empty shells as it was suspected that a complete system would violate the MTCR which the Chinese did not want(you cant violate the MTCR if you only end up with a hollow shell) so a new avenue was looked into getting the capability ASAP for which the more business savvy and less scientist AQK was put to work.

The other team was handed the hollow shell and the associated blueprints and told to build it..which meant that they had to do the Motor from the ground up which was not that difficult.. but the guidance and control sections needed a lot more effort as the Chinese system was found to be insufficient. This meant rounds of Dubai(where as I love to repeat the Pakistani folks found themselves sitting across Indian ones in the same room of a dealer) and trips to Eastern Europe(thank god for the dissolution of the Soviet Union). Long story short, the Shaheen does resemble the Chinese systems a lot but is a very different beast inside.. so much so that calling it the M-11 would be injustice. Just as calling the Babur the Tomahawk would be injustice.