How China is driving the shift to electric vehicles , Germany is losing the EV race

[Viet]

They committed suicide a long time ago.

The last properly admirable MBZ was the 280E yours truly had as a used family vehicle and grew up in. Built like a tank and felt like that on the road, unbelievably supportive seats too, not cushy like a sofa. For MBZ, the slide for flimsy and cheap started in the late eighties past that. Thin Sheetmetal that folded like tinfoil.

View attachment 966455

Nowadays the Gelandwagen is still somewhat of a quality vehicle, but the lower priced lines (E and C class etc.) are just badge-engineered also-rans. Something to give plebes some solace that they have an MBZ product to show off. Tinny, flimsy vehicles. I'm sorry, electronics and connected-car doesn't impress me. A car is for driving - not an arcade game.

You can get better-engineered cars from any of the Japanese or Chinese luxury marques.

Look, I am a fan of Chinese superpower, but chinese should be more realistic. The reality is cars made in Germany, Japan are superior to Chinese cars if coming to quality. Yes that is right China is far ahead when coming to EVs in terms of adaptability and profitability.

The issue with the German carmakers is they are fat and lazy. If they just wake up. I believe Germany will catch up. 15y ago I had a discussion with some colleagues to visit who came from the US. I was surprised they told Tesla dominated on California roads. At the time there was no single EV here. There are too much hesitations and regulations here you haven’t that restrictions in China. I installed solar panels on my balconies you don’t know what regulations I had to meet. I want to buy an electric car. You don’t know how difficult for me it is to have a power wall box in my car garage.

 

[StraightEdge]

Here's the latest results from Chinese market along with various segments. Only in the top most tier (500K+ RMB), you notice German brands leading. I suspect within 2 years Li Auto/NIO will reduce that segment as well.

PS., People who don't follow Chinese market, don't know the competition is cut-throat.
Example - VW ID.3 sells for about 30-40% less in China than in Europe.

Then there are brands that many would not have seen/heard but making some good cars. How many know that Huawei sells 10K+ cars per month? And those are not cheap. M7 is pretty expensive, more than tesla prices. Then their M9 is even more expensive and being launched in a month. Another Huawei sub-brand Avatr makes some really unique designs. I love the Avatr11, newer Avatr12 is being launched soon.
Alibaba, Baidu also have jv companies. Alibaba's LS6 is selling pretty well.

 

[Bilal9]

Look, I am a fan of Chinese superpower, but chinese should be more realistic. The reality is cars made in Germany, Japan are superior to Chinese cars if coming to quality. Yes that is right China is far ahead when coming to EVs in terms of adaptability and profitability.

The issue with the German carmakers is they are fat and lazy. If they just wake up. I believe Germany will catch up. 15y ago I had a discussion with some colleagues to visit who came from the US. I was surprised they told Tesla dominated on California roads. At the time there was no single EV here. There are too much hesitations and regulations here you haven’t that restrictions in China. I installed solar panels on my balconies you don’t know what regulations I had to meet. I want to buy an electric car. You don’t know how difficult for me it is to have a power wall box in my car garage.

Let me correct your comment, you should say :

Cars made in Germany, Japan WERE superior to Chinese cars (when it comes) to quality

Why do I say this? It's because leadership of market producing anything successfully and with a profit, belongs to those who have LOWEST COST producer advantage combined with "ACCEPTABLE & CONSISTENT" quality. Today it is China who undoubtedly holds that crown.

Ten years ago, you could say Chinese vehicle quality was nothing to write home about and they were all copies of foreign cars or foreign designs assembled in China.

Today, story is totally different. Quality for Chinese cars have gone up, there is intense competition for quality within their home market among local brands, they are coming up with their own designs (even hiring design houses like Giugiaro in Italy), and price has remained the same as before (especially for exports), which means they have way better "Bang for the buck" quotient when compared to German or Japanese cars. Maybe you need to look into it a bit deeper instead of having pre-conceived notions.

Things change. Just because the Germans or Japanese refuse to change, does not mean the Chinese will sit on their hands and/or twiddle their thumbs.

When I go back to Bangladesh - I drive friend's cars like Geely or Haval, and they compare very nicely with Japanese JDM cars which we also have there as imports. Here is a Geely Emgrand which competes with C class cars like VW Golf, Jetta, Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus etc. It is economically priced, well spec'd and is an original Chinese market design. I'd buy one for a junior family member with no questions.

Here's a Haval H6 - It is a best seller in Bangladesh luxury market which is dominated by the likes of Lexus, Infiniti and other top end marques. No corners have been cut that I can see...

Ultimately - where a car comes from is pointless, it has to be judged by its own quality/engineering merits and demerits.

 

[Viet]

Let me correct your comment, you should say :



Why do I say this? It's because leadership of market producing anything successfully and with a profit, belongs to those who have LOWEST COST producer advantage combined with "ACCEPTABLE & CONSISTENT" quality. Today it is China who undoubtedly holds that crown.

Ten years ago, you could say Chinese vehicle quality was nothing to write home about and they were all copies of foreign cars or foreign designs assembled in China.

Today, story is totally different. Quality for Chinese cars have gone up, there is intense competition for quality within their home market among local brands, they are coming up with their own designs (even hiring design houses like Giugiaro in Italy), and price has remained the same as before (especially for exports), which means they have way better "Bang for the buck" quotient when compared to German or Japanese cars. Maybe you need to look into it a bit deeper instead of having pre-conceived notions.

Things change. Just because the Germans or Japanese refuse to change, does not mean the Chinese will sit on their hands and/or twiddle their thumbs.

When I go back to Bangladesh - I drive friend's cars like Geely or Haval, and they compare very nicely with Japanese JDM cars which we also have there as imports. Here is a Geely Emgrand which competes with C class cars like VW Golf, Jetta, Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus etc. It is economically priced, well spec'd and is an original Chinese market design. I'd buy one for a junior family member with no questions.

View attachment 966563
View attachment 966564

Here's a Haval H6 - It is a best seller in Bangladesh luxury market which is dominated by the likes of Lexus, Infiniti and other top end marques. No corners have been cut that I can see...
View attachment 966567
View attachment 966569

Ultimately - where a car comes from is pointless, it has to be judged by its own quality/engineering merits and demerits.

One, EVs are much easier to make because they have less moving parts. I think Bangladesh can make it. The most difficult and expensive parts are battery and driving computer. Making moving parts like combustion engines and gears are of Germany and Japan domains. Tesla is 10y ahead of the game. Chinese carmakers get massive support by the government. The Japanese are stuck too long with hybrids. A wrong decision by the Japanese. With Germans, that’s a long story.

Two, in terms of quality, I stay with my assessment cars made in Germany and Japan are more superior. At least for ICE cars. Tesla makes good cars. their quality is ok, but I feel interior is of cheap materials. Tesla makes Y models here in Germany I did test drive. Honestly I was a bit disappointed.

From what I see, Chinese make good cars the quality is good. But to reach the top they need to work harder, especially the design, interior, materials. Then chinese EVs are just about 5k euros cheaper then people think twice.
But some time ago I bought new cars Audi and Toyota. I come from VN perhaps I am bias toward CN.

 

[Han Patriot]

wrong
german cars are superior to chinese cars.

The friggin motor and batteries are made in China. Wake up!

I have used BMW before, apart from branding, it is a complicated crappy car. They create features no one uses and overcharge others. I am seriously telling you now, even the ICE cars from GEELY is of better quality. Have you actually driven the latest Chineze cars?

 

[cloud4000]

EV is a scam. The net costs outweigh any benefits, including a massive upgrade to the electrical infrastructure.

 

[KAL-EL]

wrong
german cars are superior to chinese cars.

Especially the Porsche 911 Turbo S

 

[jhungary]

Let me correct your comment, you should say :



Why do I say this? It's because leadership of market producing anything successfully and with a profit, belongs to those who have LOWEST COST producer advantage combined with "ACCEPTABLE & CONSISTENT" quality. Today it is China who undoubtedly holds that crown.

Ten years ago, you could say Chinese vehicle quality was nothing to write home about and they were all copies of foreign cars or foreign designs assembled in China.

Today, story is totally different. Quality for Chinese cars have gone up, there is intense competition for quality within their home market among local brands, they are coming up with their own designs (even hiring design houses like Giugiaro in Italy), and price has remained the same as before (especially for exports), which means they have way better "Bang for the buck" quotient when compared to German or Japanese cars. Maybe you need to look into it a bit deeper instead of having pre-conceived notions.

Things change. Just because the Germans or Japanese refuse to change, does not mean the Chinese will sit on their hands and/or twiddle their thumbs.

When I go back to Bangladesh - I drive friend's cars like Geely or Haval, and they compare very nicely with Japanese JDM cars which we also have there as imports. Here is a Geely Emgrand which competes with C class cars like VW Golf, Jetta, Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus etc. It is economically priced, well spec'd and is an original Chinese market design. I'd buy one for a junior family member with no questions.

View attachment 966563
View attachment 966564

Here's a Haval H6 - It is a best seller in Bangladesh luxury market which is dominated by the likes of Lexus, Infiniti and other top end marques. No corners have been cut that I can see...
View attachment 966567
View attachment 966569

Ultimately - where a car comes from is pointless, it has to be judged by its own quality/engineering merits and demerits.

Really depends on how you define quality. Because quality is a very abstract concepts.

First of all, Chinese car does not lack quality, it's not back in 2000 when their car literally were shit. The Chinese brand have evolved a lot either from local breakthrough or having acquired foreign brand. Design and Tooling are going to improve with the market increase.

On the other hand, some quality standard is very subjective, I mean let's use design as an example, one may like some particular design, while other don't, each ot their own individual

But if we are talking about driving comfort and driving assist or even technology, that is something Chinese car lack at the moment, for example, BYD Atto 3 basic model don't come with driving assist (only a basic stuff like traction and brake control etc, ADAS only come with premium model) and I was told BYD only comes with front facing camera and not rear camera, and that camera that they do have only operate when you are driving (so unlike Tesla) You can have all those if you pile up on the add on, but then all those are already included in a Basic Tesla.

It would be naive to think Chinese car overall quality are better than German car, well, it can be, but with a price, and if that is the case, then people will not choose the Chinese brand if they have a choice. But if you don't have any need and you just need a car with 4 wheels and get you to where you wanted, then yes, Chinese car would probably best choice for you. But if you are having a list of thing you wanted, then you are better off for a German car,

 

[Bilal9]

EV is a scam. The net costs outweigh any benefits, including a massive upgrade to the electrical infrastructure.

The idea was to reduce emissions, that was the initial goal and remains the primary driver.

 

[Viet]

The friggin motor and batteries are made in China. Wake up!

I have used BMW before, apart from branding, it is a complicated crappy car. They create features no one uses and overcharge others. I am seriously telling you now, even the ICE cars from GEELY is of better quality. Have you actually driven the latest Chineze cars?

No not yet
Nio, Polestar have showrooms nearby in walking distance.
I thinking to make free test drives, free coffee drinks included.
I am still hesitate. I not yet ready to support chinese imperialism.
I will tell you my experience when I do it.

 

[Han Patriot]

No not yet
Nio, Polestar have showrooms nearby in walking distance.
I thinking to make free test drives, free coffee drinks included.
I am still hesitate. I not yet ready to support chinese imperialism.
I will tell you my experience when I do it.

Dude, Chinese imperialism is benign, look at what we gave Vietnam. Did we massacre you guys. We just want to reclaim what is ours, nothing more nothing less.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

No not yet
Nio, Polestar have showrooms nearby in walking distance.
I thinking to make free test drives, free coffee drinks included.
I am still hesitate. I not yet ready to support chinese imperialism.
I will tell you my experience when I do it.

China's industrial capability is unstoppable in this planet.

You can see that the US still unprecedentedly losing the chip war with all developed countries stand on its side.

Vietnam shall stand with China as its little brother, so the white men won't bully you anymore.

 

[KAL-EL]

I'm rooting for vietnam!