HOMEINDIA India set to scout for 100 naval choppers

[Zarvan]

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NEW DELHI: The armed forces' quest for new helicopters has seen controversies, scams and scrapping of tenders, much like the lingering Bofors ghost not allowing the induction of any new artillery howitzer in the Army for the last 30 years.

In a bid to break the jinx, the Centre is set to kick off the hunt for over 100 new-generation naval utility helicopters (NUH), which will replace the obsolete Chetak helicopters in the Navy, in a 'Make in India' project with foreign collaboration for over $2 billion.

Eleven Indian private sector companies, ranging from Tata Advanced Systems, Bharat Forge, Mahindra Aerospace to Reliance Defence & Aerospace and L&T, have already responded with proposed joint ventures revolving around three foreign helicopters - AS565 MBe of Airbus, Bell Helicopters-429 and Super Lynx 300 of AgustaWestland.

With the armed forces planning to induct well over 1,000 helicopters of different types in the next 10-15 years, the Indian private sector eyes a big business opportunity in the country's aerospace sector, which has largely been domestic PSU Hindustan Aeronautics' preserve so far.

"The formal tender for the over 100 NUH is now being vetted before issuance. The project will give a fillip to the 'Make in India' initiative in the aerospace industry, with transfer of technology in niche areas not available here till now," said a source.



Though the Army and IAF also require 384 light-utility helicopters, the NUH is different since it needs wheeled landing gear, sea optimization, foldable blades and small dimensions to ensure it can fit into warship hangars. The capability for anti-submarine warfare with torpedoes and missiles is also required.

But like the Army-IAF case, the Navy's earlier tender for importing 56 NUH was cancelled to ensure the project becomes a 'Buy & Make (Indian)' venture.

In August last year, soon after the Modi government came to power, the defence ministry had scrapped the long-pending acquisition of 197 light-utility helicopters for Army-IAF from abroad due to irregularities.

Along with HAL's ongoing project to build 187 light helicopters, which was sanctioned in February 2009, the ministry of defence decided all the 197 choppers would also be made in India with foreign collaboration.

Officials, in fact, say the 'Buy & Make (Indian)' categorization of the light-utility helicopters has the potential to give Rs 40,000 crore worth of business to the domestic industry.

However, the decision also means the military's already long wait to replace their obsolete Cheetah/Chetak helicopters, used even in high-altitude areas like Siachen, will take several more years to materialize now.

 

[Skull and Bones]

LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: August 1st Flight For HAL's Light Utility Copter

LUH program is moving smoothly i believe.

 

[Manindra]

LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: August 1st Flight For HAL's Light Utility Copter

LUH program is moving smoothly i believe.

LUH is 2.5 ton category but Navy wants 4.5 ton category chopper
@sancho @MilSpec Whats wrong in Naval ALH if its 5.5 ton catagory as majority of IN warships hanger can handle that.
Lots of water flown from then when IN rejected N-ALH
Some more investment could significantly increase its range, automatic rotor blade folding system & strength landing gear.

 

[sancho]

LUH is 2.5 ton category but Navy wants 4.5 ton category chopper
@sancho @MilSpec Whats wrong in Naval ALH if its 5.5 ton catagory as majority of IN warships hanger can handle that.
Lots of water flown from then when IN rejected N-ALH
Some more investment could significantly increase its range, automatic rotor blade folding system & strength landing gear.

The problem remains the same, no auto folding (and I have no idea why HAL is once again waiting instead to get the official go to fix problems, instead of doing it on their own), but range was only a problem for the ASW requirement, since the Dhruv is a class below the Sea King, Sea Hawk or NH90.
I am saying for a long time that it's insane to go for a foreign NLUH in the same class as Dhruv, if all that is needed are some minor changes. But the navy is on the foreign procurement run and wants to use the increased budgets of the last few years and as it stands, 90% of naval aviation will be of foreign origin and that even in the most successful indigenous field, the helicopters.

 

[Manindra]

The problem remains the same, no auto folding (and I have no idea why HAL is once again waiting instead to get the official go to fix problems, instead of doing it on their own), but range was only a problem for the ASW requirement, since the Dhruv is a class below the Sea King, Sea Hawk or NH90.
I am saying for a long time that it's insane to go for a foreign NLUH in the same class as Dhruv, if all that is needed are some minor changes. But the navy is on the foreign procurement run and wants to use the increased budgets of the last few years and as it stands, 90% of naval aviation will be of foreign origin and that even in the most successful indigenous field, the helicopters.

But IN is not demanding Sea King, Sea Hawk or NH90 class, they wants 4.5 ton class chopper, so I didn't think range would be problem for Dhruv. HAL is saying ALH got 100 Kg weight penalty if they add hydraulics assisted blade folding mechanism but its matter is more than 8 year old as now HAL can compensate with adding more CFC or glass fibre or other weight saving measure.
Now HAL is more capable than before.

 

[sancho]

But IN is not demanding Sea King, Sea Hawk or NH90 class, they wants 4.5 ton class chopper, so I didn't think range would be problem for Dhruv.

That's what I'm saying. In this case, range doesn't matter, but when IN rejected the naval Dhruv it was for the ASW requirement and then range was of concern.

 

[Manindra]

That's what I'm saying. In this case, range doesn't matter, but when IN rejected the naval Dhruv it was for the ASW requirement and then range was of concern.

Then which parameter 4.5 ton class NLUH supersede N-ALH.
When IN rejected N-ALH, that time HAL was manufacturing ALH MK1, now they are manufacturing ALH MK3 & MK4.

 

[sancho]

Then which parameter 4.5 ton class NLUH supersede N-ALH.
When IN rejected N-ALH, that time HAL was manufacturing ALH MK1, now they are manufacturing ALH MK3 & MK4.

True, but the MK1 to 4 are only upgrade standards, not version specific. We already saw production versions of the naval Dhruv at HAL with the latest MK4 EW suit. The main problem should still remain the folding issue, which is why IN sees the naval Dhruv mainly as a shore based utility and SAR helicopter.

 

[Manindra]

True, but the MK1 to 4 are only upgrade standards, not version specific. We already saw production versions of the naval Dhruv at HAL with the latest MK4 EW suit. The main problem should still remain the folding issue, which is why IN sees the naval Dhruv mainly as a shore based utility and SAR helicopter.

Which add 100 Kg weight in N-ALH empty Weight so, I didn't think much problem if HAL came forward to navy to propose new change in original N-ALH.
HAL fights back with IAF in Pilatus issue , why didn't in this?

 

[ZooZoo]

LUH is 2.5 ton category but Navy wants 4.5 ton category chopper
@sancho @MilSpec Whats wrong in Naval ALH if its 5.5 ton catagory as majority of IN warships hanger can handle that.
Lots of water flown from then when IN rejected N-ALH
Some more investment could significantly increase its range, automatic rotor blade folding system & strength landing gear.

At least now India should stop buying chopper.. We have already made ALH.. Base on this platform we can make big , small, tiny or huge choppers..

 

[sancho]

Which add 100 Kg weight in N-ALH empty Weight so, I didn't think much problem if HAL came forward to navy to propose new change in original N-ALH.
HAL fights back with IAF in Pilatus issue , why didn't in this?

Well the Dhruv is a success anyway, so it might not matter too much, the trainer issue instead was a matter of pride and the IAF will have to pay the price by being forced to use 2 different aircrafts for the exact same purpose.

 

[Manindra]

At least now India should stop buying chopper.. We have already made ALH.. Base on this platform we can make big , small, tiny or huge choppers..

Who would tell Modi that their is no difference in previous licence production & current Make in India ( not Made by India)

 

[sancho]

Who would tell Modi that their is no difference in previous licence production & current Make in India ( not Made by India)

Well there is one difference, the name! The official policy is still called "Buy and Make Indian", created under the former MoD, but today you simply call everything "Make in India" that has remotly to do with production in India and you can sell it as something new.

Foreign N-LUH procured abroad with offsets diverted to India = Make in India
Foreign N-LUH licence produced in India = Make in India
HAL N-Dhrub produced in India = Make in India

One has to admit, marketing is one of the strong points of him and the new government, but what counts is, what substance can be gained at the end.

 

[Manindra]

Well there is one difference, the name! The official policy is still called "Buy and Make Indian", created under the former MoD, but today you simply call everything "Make in India" that has remotly to do with production in India and you can sell it as something new.

Foreign N-LUH procured abroad with offsets diverted to India = Make in India
Foreign N-LUH licence produced in India = Make in India
HAL N-Dhrub produced in India = Make in India

One has to admit, marketing is one of the strong points of him and the new government, but what counts is, what substance can be gained at the end.

But slogans doesn't change reality.
With licence production of foreign products by private players they would only gain know how in which they can only develop new products after 20 to 30 years, which phase HAL, OFB, BEML, BHEL etc. are already passed.
If they want to develop capacity in private sector then they simply order LUH from HAL in which half would be produced by private players under licence of HAL, same could be done by in LCA & Su-30 MKI overhauling & upgradation.
Thats give HAL some breathing space to take more complex challenges.
That would be truly 'Make in India'
Except HAL nobody in India have any know how in aerospace then how can they absorb technology compare to HAL?

 

[sancho]

But slogans doesn't change reality.

And I am the last person that woudn't agree to that, that's why I say that the foreign visits and are mainly huge PR campaigns and well done for that specific purpose, but at the end of the day, none of them have changed anything substancially for India.
The best improvements are the actual changes they made, in terms of ease of bureaucracy. That doesn't sound great, but had far more effect, just as tax improvements, FDI increase. Only these kind of policy changes can make things better, not just slogans or marketing. But sometimes it's also used to takeover good policies of the former government and then a new name or calculation method comes in handy.

With licence production of foreign products by private players they would only gain know how in which they can only develop new products after 20 to 30 years,

It depends on what and how? We shouldn't licence produce a foreign LUH anymore, when we can develop our own. But we should licence produce MMRCAs, because we didn't reached that level of know how yet and the industry could a lot from it.