Holbrooke’s Last Words: ‘Stop War In Afghanistan’

[Solomon2]

No, the wonder is how you still continue to cling to a half-arsed analysis vilifying Pakistan based on a snippet of Holbrooke's comments, comments that have clearly been shown to be out of context...As for your suggestion that the US administration is lying and concocted the detailed Holbrooke comments -

No. I am saying that the context listed by Holbrooke's family is the true one. Doubtless Holbrooke discussed Pakistan with his family and they knew his true feelings well - and they also knew how their words would be received in the diplomatic community. (If anything, the family's grief makes it more likely their words would be more direct and less guarded than usual.) The Administration isn't necessarily "lying", just trying to de-emphasize Holbrooke's words to "smooth" things out.

You can be sure Holbrooke would have understood and disapproved of this, yet continue to obey his bosses, hoping they would (as Kissinger put it) eventually agree with him, and the earlier the less painful that would be.

And you, AM, are still continuing to hide from the implications of Holbrooke's last testament, is that not so? Or did I possibly miss something? Can you point to any post you've written where you've pressed for Pakistanis to do something specific to take responsibility for their own fate and that of their neighbors and seek to improve matters, rather than reflexively and defensively blame the U.S.?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No. I am saying that the context listed by Holbrooke's family is the true one. Doubtless Holbrooke discussed Pakistan with his family and they knew his true feelings well - and they also knew how their words would be received in the diplomatic community. (If anything, the family's grief makes it more likely their words would be more direct and less guarded than usual.) The Administration isn't necessarily "lying", just trying to de-emphasize Holbrooke's words to "smooth" things out.

You can be sure Holbrooke would have understood and disapproved of this, yet continue to obey his bosses, hoping they would (as Kissinger put it) eventually agree with him, and the earlier the less painful that would be.

The argument that the Administration is 'de-emphasizing' or 'distorting' Holbrooke's words remains unsubstantiated. As I pointed out, the detailed comments attributed to multiple sources in the room do not necessarily negate the families comments, they provide further context to what was actually said, rather that the one liner and alleged identity of one surgeon that you continue to cling to.

And you, AM, are still continuing to hide from the implications of Holbrooke's last testament, is that not so? Or did I possibly miss something? Can you point to any post you've written where you've pressed for Pakistanis to do something specific to take responsibility for their own fate and that of their neighbors and seek to improve matters, rather than reflexively and defensively blame the U.S.?

I am not the one concocting conspiracy theories about the Administration lying or 'de-emphasizing' or 'distorting' comments, you are.

Holbrooke's detailed comments make quite clear that your arguments vilifying Pakistan on the basis of an out of context snippet of his comments are baseless.

 

[Solomon2]

And you, AM, are still continuing to hide from the implications of Holbrooke's last testament, is that not so? Or did I possibly miss something? Can you point to any post you've written where you've pressed for Pakistanis to do something specific to take responsibility for their own fate and that of their neighbors and seek to improve matters, rather than reflexively and defensively blame the U.S.?

AM, as I read it your answers are: "No, no, and no." I can't think of any seasoned diplomat who would find your arguments convincing. Your accusations are poor sophistry.

Once again, you deny what is and offer your fellow Pakistanis no hope for change through improved governance. Probably the one value Holbrooke wished to imbue in Pakistanis over all others, and the one continually frustrated by the current ruling class.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, as I read it your answers are: "No, no, and no." I can't think of any seasoned diplomat who would find your arguments convincing. Your accusations are poor sophistry.

'Sophistry'?

I am not the one concocting conspiracy theories about the Administration lying, or being deceitful to 'protect Pakistan'. My arguments are valid and based on a reputable source detailing Holbrooks complete comments, yours are based on a snippet taken out of context. I dare say it is your arguments that would carry no weight with any rational non-biased individual.

Once again, you deny what is and offer your fellow Pakistanis no hope for change through improved governance. Probably the one value Holbrooke wished to imbue in Pakistanis over all others, and the one continually frustrated by the current ruling class.

Again, stop coming up with ludicrous extrapolations from an out of context snippet of Holbrooke's comments to denigrate Pakistan with.

 

[Solomon2]

I dare say it is your arguments that would carry no weight with any rational non-biased individual.

Sure, we can leave it to people to read over our comments in full and judge for themselves.

But that still doesn't let you off my hook. Can you point to any constructive comments you've made about Pakistanis helping themselves and others? And if not, don't think about how you can justify your conduct to others, either Pakistani or non-Pakistani. How can you justify it to yourself?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

But that still doesn't let you off my hook. Can you point to any constructive comments you've made about Pakistanis helping themselves and others? And if not, don't think about how you can justify your conduct to others, either Pakistani or non-Pakistani. How can you justify it to yourself?

What is the thread topic and where do any of your questions above fit in?

Random remonstrations to members about 'justifying their conduct' borders on trolling.

Stick to the topic please.

 

[Solomon2]

From the first post of the thread, Holbrooke's comments were to invoke Pakistani responsibility. You're on. Speak! - or remain silent.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

From the first post of the thread, Holbrooke's comments were to invoke Pakistani responsibility. You're on. Speak! - or remain silent.

No- that is your skewed interpretation of Holbrook's comments based on a snippet that was sensationalized and skewed by the US media to bash Pakistan.

 

[Ras]

From the first post of the thread, Holbrooke's comments were to invoke Pakistani responsibility. You're on. Speak! - or remain silent.

That is quite a stretch...Holbrooke said a no of things which ended with an assertion that the war must end. I do not think anyone should read anything into it just because it may or (just as likely may not) be said to a Pakistani origin surgeon.

After all what does the surgeon(Pakistani or not) have to do with the war?

 

[Ras]

Why do i have a feeling that the guilt of war took a toll on his life?

His level of dedication to Afghan Pak affairs tells that it he knew the inside story well and sorting this mess was probably the biggest psychological strain on his persona.

He was bang in the middle of the blood bath called the Balkan war in the last decade...as he managed to live through that,he could have easily lived through the Afghan war without any mental issues.

 

[Solomon2]

No- that is your skewed interpretation of Holbrook's comments based on a snippet that was sensationalized and skewed by the US media to bash Pakistan.

Don't mischaracterize. Holbrooke's family is the source and no one disputes that their comment was accurately reported by the media.

My hypothesis - an utterly reasonable one to ANY diplomat - is that Holbrooke talked a lot about Pakistan with his family and thus I conclude that their words represent his last testament on Pakistani matters. There is nothing "skewed" about my interpretation.

But there remains the demonstration of your demonstrated lack of concern for the well-being of your fellow Pakistanis. Very much something Holbrooke was concerned about. You claim to be an agnostic, AM. Do you think that relieves your soul of responsibility towards your fellow humans?