High cost of Mirage-2000 upgrade raises eyebrows

[SQ8]

No, they aren't. The original Su-27 flanker was a dedicated air superiority aircraft. The Su-30 was a multirole strike fighter, and the MKI is the same thing with better avionics and slightly better air-to-air performance.

They are our best strike aircraft, comparable to the F-15 strike eagle. They can pound the ground harder than any other aircraft we have.

From wiki, these are the ground pounding weapons it can carry:

Air-to-surface Missiles:
3 × Kh-59ME TV guided standoff Missile, 115 km
3 × Kh-59MK active radar homing anti-ship missile, 285 km
4 × Kh-35 anti-ship missile, 130 km
1 × Brahmos supersonic cruise missile, 300 km
1 × Nirbhay subsonic cruise missile, 1,000 km
6 × Kh-31P/A anti-radar missile, 70 km
6 × Kh-29T/L laser-guided missile, 30 km
4 × S-8 rocket pods (80 unguided rockets)
4 × S-13 rocket pods (20 unguided rockets)

Bombs:
8 × KAB-500L laser-guided bombs
3 × KAB-1500L laser-guided bombs
8 × FAB-500T dumb bombs
28 × OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs
32 × OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs
8 × RBK-500 cluster bombs

Name one aircraft in the IAF that has more ground pounding ability. They can carry more ground pounding weapons than any other aircraft, to far greater distances than any other aircraft. Heck, there are only two or three in the world that can carry as much ground pounding munitions as the MKI. They are our best air superiority fighter, and our best striker - in other words, our best multirole fighter.

Depends on which weapons the IAF has specifically ordered

If deagel is to be believed.. then India has chosen the Israeli Crystal Maze weapon system(based on the popeye).. for an unknown platform(quite likely the MKI)

The KH-27PS anti-radiation missile is also listed.

Other weapons may be operational but it is unlikely that the MKI carries all of the loads specified(it probably carries some unspecified)

 

[Sergi]

The better term would be to say that they are dedicated to the air superiority role..
The MKI's are capable of A2G ordnance delivery of both guided and unguided types...however, their role is better focused on air-superiority and deep strike(when Brahmos comes online).

It doesn't mean they cant do it, just means that they spend 65/35 of their time on air-superiority taskings

Well the underlined part is my defination of multirole. Correct me if I am wrong with it and I don't think Brahmos is/will be only option.

we can't deny that MKIs would be prime Air superiority fighter but that doesn't make them incapable or less capable in ground strick roles.

I have the the apportunity to see a MKI herd in mixed combo.

And by similar defination EF was designed a omni role and companies still do marketing on the same line. But we all know it has poor ground capabilities as of today

 

[SQ8]

Well the underlined part is my defination of multirole. Correct me if I am wrong with it and I don't think Brahmos is/will be only option.

we can't deny that MKIs would be prime Air superiority fighter but that doesn't make them incapable or less capable in ground strick roles.

I have the the apportunity to see a MKI herd in mixed combo.

And by similar defination EF was designed a omni role and companies still do marketing on the same line. But we all know it has poor ground capabilities as of today

Au Contrare.. it is quite capable in A2G as well.. the lack of capability is based more on customer demand..
The member nations focused more on the A2A role being operational earlier.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Jesus, this was discussed to death when the negotians were going on, the former ACM made a good argument.


These bloody desi journos- they don't give two hoots about who their BS hurts. That keep regurgating the same news again and again apparently oblivious to the fact this has been heavily reported in the past.

 

[sancho]

They are dedicated air superiority fighters.

Any fighter that can carry A2A and A2G weaponary is a multi role fighter, but some are more geared by design or capability for A2A and some more for A2G.

The MKI is a varient of the Su 30MK, a multi role tandem seat Flanker, but with the addition of canards, TVC and BARS radar made it more capable in A2A than other Su 30s, while remaining with the same powerful strike capability that all Flankers have.

Su 35 - single seat, multi role fighter, 12 hardpoints, 8t payload, geared for A2A
Su 34 - side by side twin seat, multi role fighter, 12 hardpoints, 8t payload, geared for A2G
Su 30 - tandem twin seat, multi role fighter, 12 hardpoints, 8t payload, good in both

The Rafale was designed to be omnirole

Which means, to have a balanced multi role capability by design. It was developed to be equally good in all roles, while the EF for example was developed for A2A mainly, with A2G as a secondary capability and still, they all are multi role fighters.


On topic, another crappy sensational article of the Indian media!

They not only counted the upgraded costs (around $2 billion dollar), but added the costs of HAL to set up new facilities, or even seperate weapon deals (btw, SPICE 2000 is cleared for M2K UPG as well, so when will they add that cost too?).
At the same time they still take only the base upgrade cost of the Mig 29 for Russia to account, without the costs for the engines, western and Indian avionics, or weapons like Kh 35, or the A2G weapons that now will be added, just to make the difference look bigger.

The best choice would have been, to let Dassault do the upgrades alone and send some M2Ks to France in packages. Would have been much easier, cheaper and faster, but who knows what MoD/IAF have in mind with these M2Ks, the upgrade seems not to be a small one.

 

[Mike_Brando]

Jesus, this was discussed to death when the negotians were going on, the former ACM made a good argument.


These bloody desi journos- they don't give two hoots about who their BS hurts. That keep regurgating the same news again and again apparently oblivious to the fact this has been heavily reported in the past.

exactly thats why i simply hate the Indian jounos coz they literally don't know anything when it comes to defence related matters but pretend to be some sort of expert!hell the deal is not only for the upgradation of the mirage-2000 aircrafts,its also for around 500 state-of-the-art Mica BVR missiles which is one of the most expensive missiles in the present market and costs anything between $1.5-2 millions.so the entire missile order itself values around $1 Billion.plus there might be some extra missile orders in the agreement!

 

[janon]

exactly thats why i simply hate the Indian jounos coz they literally don't know anything when it comes to defence related matters but pretend to be some sort of expert!hell the deal is not only for the upgradation of the mirage-2000 aircrafts,its also for around 500 state-of-the-art Mica BVR missiles which is one of the most expensive missiles in the present market and costs anything between $1.5-2 millions.so the entire missile order itself values around $1 Billion.plus there might be some extra missile orders in the agreement!

That's not true. The cost of upgradation is 2.1 billion dollars, and the price for the weapons package will be negotiated separately. This was said by Antony in the parliament, and I remember reading news reports to that effect. I don't have time right now, but I will try to find the links for that later.

It is a very expensive upgrade, there is no way to escape that fact. But that is the cost that the OEM is charging us, and we don't have the in-house capability to do it ourselves, so...

 

[Capt.Popeye]

On topic, another crappy sensational article of the Indian media!

They not only counted the upgraded costs (around $2 billion dollar), but added the costs of HAL to set up new facilities, or even seperate weapon deals (btw, SPICE 2000 is cleared for M2K UPG as well, so when will they add that cost too?).
At the same time they still take only the base upgrade cost of the Mig 29 for Russia to account, without the costs for the engines, western and Indian avionics, or weapons like Kh 35, or the A2G weapons that now will be added, just to make the difference look bigger.

The best choice would have been, to let Dassault do the upgrades alone and send some M2Ks to France in packages. Would have been much easier, cheaper and faster, but who knows what MoD/IAF have in mind with these M2Ks, the upgrade seems not to be a small one.

The likely explanations for the above costing being talked about is:
1. Some very extensive rebuild/repair facilities being set up at HAL. Let us not overlook the fact that the M2K production line is being shut down in France. India with French acquiescence is setting out to be more autonomous in maintaining M2Ks.
2. More extensive 'tinkering around' with the innards of the M2K than is being published. Some of those processes and equipment are very likely to be cross-platform with the Rafales.
3. India's insistence on being involved in much greater measure generally; with long-term maintenance of both French and Russian platforms.

 

[sancho]

Au Contrare.. it is quite capable in A2G as well.. the lack of capability is based more on customer demand..
The member nations focused more on the A2A role being operational earlier.

Nope, it's mainly caused by design failures, because with the current hardpoint layout it has only 3 wet/heavy stations, no dedicated pod station and has size limitations for the centerline hardpoint too. That means...

... it can't carry a cruise, or anti ship missile in a single load config (size limitation because of gearbays), only 2 at the same time
... with cruise, or anti ship missiles it can carry only a single 1000l fuel tank, so will be highly range limited
... it can't use a recon pod on the centerline station
... it can't carry a 2000lb LGB on the centerline, because that hardpoint will be occupied by the LDP
... using LDP and 2 x fuel tanks, leaves no hardpoint for a 2000lb LGB anyway

All this comes, because the layout was focused on carrying a maximum ammount of BVR missiles in any role. That's why the EF can carry 4 x BVR missiles at the fuselage, while the Rafale can carry 2 and has 2 x hardpoints left for LDPs or recon pods.
The only way to counter some of these problems, is to add CFTs in future, because that frees hardpoints especially for heavy weapons and provides a decent fuel capacity for deep strike missions.

On top of all this, comes that the A2G weapon integration of the partners were more than pathetic, mainly because they had better and more cost-effective strike fighters available in their fleets (Tornado, F18 Hornet).

Even IAFs current M2K is far mor multi role capable than the EF and with the upgrades it will be even better in all roles!

 

[janon]

Here is is:

Government okays $2.4 bn Mirage-2000 upgrade | NDTV.com

Taking into account $1 billion for new weapons and another $500 million for new facilities at Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the upgrade, the cost could rise to close to $4 billion, Defence Ministry officials said.

So both the price of weapons, and the cost of new facilities at HAL are separate from this 2.1 billion dollar figure. There were plenty of times that this was clarified, once by Antony himself in parliament.

@Capt.Popeye : That negates your point 1 above.

@sancho: you had made that point too, about cost of facilities. Apparently that's not included in this figure.

Let's face it, we are being made to pay through our nose.

 

[Mritunjaya]

Here is is:

Government okays $2.4 bn Mirage-2000 upgrade | NDTV.com


So both the price of weapons, and the cost of new facilities at HAL are separate from this 2.1 billion dollar figure. There were plenty of times that this was clarified, once by Antony himself in parliament.

@Capt.Popeye : That negates your point 1 above.

@sancho: you had made that point too, about cost of facilities. Apparently that's not included in this figure.

Let's face it, we are being made to pay through our nose.

IAF wanted Rafale and not EF........the only way that was possible was to make Rafale L1....that meant extra money had to be paid to them via some other route. This is where M2K upgrades come in.

 

[janon]

IAF wanted Rafale and not EF........the only way that was possible was to make Rafale L1....that meant extra money had to be paid to them via some other route. This is where M2K upgrades come in.

Care to explain how you know this?

Any evidence to backup your claims?

(Saying that you cant think of any other explanation is not an evidence, and technically it is called "argument from ignorance").

 

[Mritunjaya]

Care to explain how you know this?

Any evidence to backup your claims?

(Saying that you cant think of any other explanation is not an evidence, and technically it is called "argument from ignorance").

If there is evidence to show this then EF will be the first to take it to Indian court and stall the Rafale purchase

Its called 'information from experience' or 'how things happen in the real world' .........the one outside this forum.

 

[1ndy]

As article says only two aircraft will be upgraded by France rest will be upgrade by HAL in India. So basically we are buying technology from France. The good thing is that most of money won't go outside of our country.

 

[Viet]

So 3.5 billions for Mirage 2000 updating, Dassault is gonna bleed India white.
3.5 billions could afford to buy 50 brand new Su35 super flanker.

If the sum of $3.5bn is correct, than it is too expensive, not worth upgrading of just 51 Mirage-2000s.

As article says only two aircraft will be upgraded by France rest will be upgrade by HAL in India. So basically we are buying technology from France. The good thing is that most of money won't go outside of our country.

I think India must import all hardware from France, then to be assembled in India.
What India saves is basically relatively low human worker cost.