Help me in debated against Pakistani Army

[third eye]

An unusual way to run a thread.

We are discussing things for you to tell your friend ???

 

[shravan]

third eye

Yup. I was supporting him from the start. Suddenly the topic went from America to Indian Muslims. I had to reply. Sorry to you and the MODS.

 

[dabong1]

Haj subsidy is subsidy in airfare given to the Indian Haj pilgrims. The Haj pilgrims going through Haj Committee of India are offered subsidy/concession in airfare. It is paid by the Government of India to Air India.

In the year 2007, the Haj subsidy paid by Indian government was Rs. 595 crore, and for 2008 it was Rs. 700 crore. Since 1994 the round trip cost to Jeddah has been fixed at Rs. 12,000 per pilgrim, and the rest of the bill is footed by the government. In 2007, this difference came to Rs. 47,454 per passenger.
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I dont understand why our government spends so much money on haj subsidy. This money can be used for poor Muslims.
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First, let us analyze what exactly this so-called Haj subsidy entails. An Indian Muslim, who chooses to go to Haj through government run Haj committees, gets a subsidy of around Rs. 20,000 on their Air India ticket of Rs. 32,000. That is it ! The minimum cost of a Haj package through the Haj committees is around Rs. 92,000, of which Rs. 20,000 is paid by the Indian government to Air India as a subsidy on the Hajis ticket. The total Haj airline ticket subsidy was around Rs. 150 crore for the year 2001 and has been enmarked to Rs. 225 crores for the year 2005. It is interesting to note that the normal ticket to Saudi Arabia costs around Rs. 25,000 but Air India charges Rs. 34,000 from the Hajis. So, effectively the government is giving a subsidy of Rs. 12,000 only !
The Sangh Parivar zealots make is sound like that the Indian government sponspors an Annual-Go-To-Haj trip for anyone who is interested. Why this is such a big issue for them? I don’t think the amount involved (Rs. 225 crores) is the itching factor. They are more piqued at the fact that it allows Muslims to go to Mecca and Medina, their holy cities which are outside India, out there is some land called Arabia. The usual argument of these fanatics is that India and India alone should be the pitrabhuumi (fatherland) and punyabhuumi (holyland) of all Indians and since the holy places of Muslims and Christians are elsewhere, they can never be patriotic enough. This argument would have been plain ridiculous had it not been so malevolent. So, what they are trying to say is that a Hindu born and brought up in USA can not be patriotic enough to USA, if he chooses to visit the Somnath mandir in India as a pilgrim. A Swede, who converts to Hinduism, can not be loyal to Sweden if he scouts Mathura and Varanasi in search of spiritual salvation. The patriotism of all Sikhs who visit Nankana sahab in Pakistan is somehow suspect and all Hindus who undergo the arduous Kailash Mansarovar pilgrimage can not be termed Indians anymore because that site is under Chinese dominion. Welcome to Ram Rajya 2.0, as espoused by a few hate mongers. But then, these gentlemen hardly talk or understand a five lettered word, ’sense’. We would let them go for the time being.

Coming back to the Haj subsidy, Haj is obligatory only on those who are physically and financially capable of performing the journey. So, all the expenses should be incurred by the Hajis himself and the government should not pay any part of that. Fair enough. But is the government actually providing any financial support to the Hajis? I don’t think so. The government is only subsidising their air tickets because the airlines they are travelling with belongs to the government. In other words it is a discount on an overpriced product. There are many companies that provide discounts to their regular users. What we fail to appreciate is that these Hajis are providing atleast 84 crores as revenue to Air India per year, year after year for the pathetic service they receive in return. Is it merely a rumour that the worst Air India carriers are employed by Air India for the Haj travel? Last year, on its way back, one of the Air India plane broke down. It has to be grounded in Sharjah for a full night. The Hajis were told that they would have to spend the entire night in the plane. Customer service anyone? After protests from the passengers, Air India finally relented and issued boarding passes to the passengers. Which traveller in his right mind would prefer travelling with Air India with so many airlines providing world-class service at comptetitive rates, nowadays?

More than 120,000 Indians went for Haj in the year 2001. That is a big big number and the that too within a specific time schedule. Out of these, around 50,000 chose to go with private tour operators. Why? Because there are many private tour operators that offer Haj packages for as low as Rs. 68,000, without any government subsidy (yes, the government gives subsidy only on the Air India ticket, not to the Hajis per se). What does that tells us? Let me make a guess, these tour operators are more efficient?

So, the goverment of India, in order to cover for their awful management of Air India, to hold on to a constant (and unquestioning) source of revenue (year, after year) want Indian Muslims to believe that it is doing a lot of favour by doling out some subsidy on an overpriced air ticket. That too for its own vote bank politics. Come on !

The consecutive governments in India have only used symbolism in the name of minority policies. Instead of focusing on the real issues, as to why Indian Muslims are at the bottom of the social rung, why the literacy rate of Muslims is the lowest, what are the reasons that Muslims fail to enrol their kids for school, what can be done to utilise the tremendous skills of business and entrepreneurship, all we are given is a pathetic subsidy on an overpriced airline ticket and that too, mainly for its own good. Symbolism sells, in India, it sells big. The fact that it also gives an issue to perennial Muslim-haters like Togadia, Singhal and Giriraj Kishore, is of no concern to it. Afterall, when these people bark, and occasionally bite, which way the terrified Muslim would turn to? Is it just a co-incidence or a well though strategy, that the BJP led government did not abolish the Haj subisidy in its 6 years of power because that would deprive its core Muslim-bashing constituency one of the favourite issues? Even Muslim leaders such as Syed Shahabuddin (not that Siwan hoodlum, but the ex-diplomat) has been demanding for 20 years that the Indian government should do away with the so-called Haj subsidy. He also claims that no Muslim leader ever asked for it.

The bottomline is this, Indian Muslims should reject the subsidized Air India ticket, if not for anything else then for common sense only. Once the Haj market opens and this forced monopoly of Air India goes, I would not be surprised if other airlines start offering discounts to the Hajis. Afterall, which company wouldn’t want to tap in an yearly market in excess of Rs. 350 crores, and that too, just for the airfare.
http://indianmuslims.in/haj-subsidy-anyone/

 

[dabong1]

third eye

Yup. I was supporting him from the start. Suddenly the topic went from America to Indian Muslims. I had to reply. Sorry to you and the MODS.

The only reason it went onto india was that one of the questions was "pakistan should have never been freed from india. the 1947 was a great MESS"

Just trying to tell one of the reasons why pakistan was made.

 

[shravan]

Please don't copy paste from blogs and comments. Doesn't make sense or Does It...

 

[shravan]

Jinnah said that muslims living in india woud end up at the bottom of every social-economic indicator.....which has come true.
Ask you freind to move to india and then tell us if pakistan shuld have been made.

Tell me don't i have a right to defend that.

http://indianmuslims.in/category/news_analysis/pakistan/

 

[dabong1]

Please don't copy paste from blogs and comments. Doesn't make sense or Does It...

It makes total sense to me as the guy that posted the piece has answered all you points about hajj subsidy...its all facts and figures that are there to for you to argue against and prove me wrong or put me right.

I could have just taken the facts and posted them as my own but i think the guy deserves credit for tearing apart the hajj subsidy myth.

 

[dabong1]

Tell me don't i have a right to defend that.

Pakistan | Indian Muslims

You have every right to argue for india and that is what we expect......but please try to keep it fact based.

 

[shravan]

It makes total sense to me as the guy that posted the piece has answered all you points about hajj subsidy...its all facts and figures that are there to for you to argue against and prove me wrong or put me right.

I could have just taken the facts and posted them as my own but i think the guy deserves credit for tearing apart the hajj subsidy myth.

LOL.
--
New Hajj policy sent to SC | Pakistan Times!
ISLAMABAD: Federal Ministry for Religious Affairs has forwarded the new Hajj policy to the Supreme Court. The apex court had directed the Religious Affairs Ministry to submit the new Hajj policy by August 31 while hearing of a case of Hajj operators. Advisor to Prime Minister on Religious Affairs, Hamid Saeed Kazmi told Geo News that the expenses of Hajj had registered increase. Last year a pilgrim had to pay 135,000 for going on a Hajj trip on government quota but this year the amount has surged to Rs200,000. He said the overall price hike has also resulted in the rise of total expenses of performing Hajj.

The official said that despite increase in oil prices, the PIA would charge fare ranging from Rs 85,000 to Rs 70,000 from different Pakistani cities. He said that the ministry has finalised all arrangements for accommodating 89,000 pilgrims and arrangements will be finalised soon for the rest of the pilgrims.

The SC would review the policy. The apex court had ordered the Religious Affairs ministry to present the Haj policy in the court till August 31 during hearing a case of Haj operators. The court would hear the case tomorrow with reference to haj quota. Advisor to Prime Minister for Religious Affairs Hamid Saeed Kamzi told Geo News that Haj expenses have been increased this year as compared to previous year.

The Haj pilgrims on government quota had paid the Rs.135, 000 last year, which has been increased to Rs. 200,000 this year. He said that the reason of increment in expenses is over all price hikes. Airfares have also been increased. Hamid Kazmi said that a medical mission comprised of 320 officials and 260 Haj Khuddam would accompany the Haj pilgrims.

-----

 

[karnivore]

First, let us analyze what exactly this so-called Haj subsidy entails. An Indian Muslim, who chooses to go to Haj through government run Haj committees, gets a subsidy of around Rs. 20,000 on their Air India ticket of Rs. 32,000. That is it ! The minimum cost of a Haj package through the Haj committees is around Rs. 92,000, of which Rs. 20,000 is paid by the Indian government to Air India as a subsidy on the Hajis ticket. The total Haj airline ticket subsidy was around Rs. 150 crore for the year 2001 and has been enmarked to Rs. 225 crores for the year 2005. It is interesting to note that the normal ticket to Saudi Arabia costs around Rs. 25,000 but Air India charges Rs. 34,000 from the Hajis. So, effectively the government is giving a subsidy of Rs. 12,000 only !
The Sangh Parivar zealots make is sound like that the Indian government sponspors an Annual-Go-To-Haj trip for anyone who is interested. Why this is such a big issue for them? I don’t think the amount involved (Rs. 225 crores) is the itching factor. They are more piqued at the fact that it allows Muslims to go to Mecca and Medina, their holy cities which are outside India, out there is some land called Arabia. The usual argument of these fanatics is that India and India alone should be the pitrabhuumi (fatherland) and punyabhuumi (holyland) of all Indians and since the holy places of Muslims and Christians are elsewhere, they can never be patriotic enough. This argument would have been plain ridiculous had it not been so malevolent. So, what they are trying to say is that a Hindu born and brought up in USA can not be patriotic enough to USA, if he chooses to visit the Somnath mandir in India as a pilgrim. A Swede, who converts to Hinduism, can not be loyal to Sweden if he scouts Mathura and Varanasi in search of spiritual salvation. The patriotism of all Sikhs who visit Nankana sahab in Pakistan is somehow suspect and all Hindus who undergo the arduous Kailash Mansarovar pilgrimage can not be termed Indians anymore because that site is under Chinese dominion. Welcome to Ram Rajya 2.0, as espoused by a few hate mongers. But then, these gentlemen hardly talk or understand a five lettered word, ’sense’. We would let them go for the time being.

Coming back to the Haj subsidy, Haj is obligatory only on those who are physically and financially capable of performing the journey. So, all the expenses should be incurred by the Hajis himself and the government should not pay any part of that. Fair enough. But is the government actually providing any financial support to the Hajis? I don’t think so. The government is only subsidising their air tickets because the airlines they are travelling with belongs to the government. In other words it is a discount on an overpriced product. There are many companies that provide discounts to their regular users. What we fail to appreciate is that these Hajis are providing atleast 84 crores as revenue to Air India per year, year after year for the pathetic service they receive in return. Is it merely a rumour that the worst Air India carriers are employed by Air India for the Haj travel? Last year, on its way back, one of the Air India plane broke down. It has to be grounded in Sharjah for a full night. The Hajis were told that they would have to spend the entire night in the plane. Customer service anyone? After protests from the passengers, Air India finally relented and issued boarding passes to the passengers. Which traveller in his right mind would prefer travelling with Air India with so many airlines providing world-class service at comptetitive rates, nowadays?

More than 120,000 Indians went for Haj in the year 2001. That is a big big number and the that too within a specific time schedule. Out of these, around 50,000 chose to go with private tour operators. Why? Because there are many private tour operators that offer Haj packages for as low as Rs. 68,000, without any government subsidy (yes, the government gives subsidy only on the Air India ticket, not to the Hajis per se). What does that tells us? Let me make a guess, these tour operators are more efficient?

So, the goverment of India, in order to cover for their awful management of Air India, to hold on to a constant (and unquestioning) source of revenue (year, after year) want Indian Muslims to believe that it is doing a lot of favour by doling out some subsidy on an overpriced air ticket. That too for its own vote bank politics. Come on !

The consecutive governments in India have only used symbolism in the name of minority policies. Instead of focusing on the real issues, as to why Indian Muslims are at the bottom of the social rung, why the literacy rate of Muslims is the lowest, what are the reasons that Muslims fail to enrol their kids for school, what can be done to utilise the tremendous skills of business and entrepreneurship, all we are given is a pathetic subsidy on an overpriced airline ticket and that too, mainly for its own good. Symbolism sells, in India, it sells big. The fact that it also gives an issue to perennial Muslim-haters like Togadia, Singhal and Giriraj Kishore, is of no concern to it. Afterall, when these people bark, and occasionally bite, which way the terrified Muslim would turn to? Is it just a co-incidence or a well though strategy, that the BJP led government did not abolish the Haj subisidy in its 6 years of power because that would deprive its core Muslim-bashing constituency one of the favourite issues? Even Muslim leaders such as Syed Shahabuddin (not that Siwan hoodlum, but the ex-diplomat) has been demanding for 20 years that the Indian government should do away with the so-called Haj subsidy. He also claims that no Muslim leader ever asked for it.

The bottomline is this, Indian Muslims should reject the subsidized Air India ticket, if not for anything else then for common sense only. Once the Haj market opens and this forced monopoly of Air India goes, I would not be surprised if other airlines start offering discounts to the Hajis. Afterall, which company wouldn’t want to tap in an yearly market in excess of Rs. 350 crores, and that too, just for the airfare.
Haj Subsidy, Anyone? | Indian Muslims

The only point left out in the whole rant is an answer to a tiny question:

Why should India subsidize a religious pilgrimage, whichever religion, it may be, when it is constitutionally secular ?

 

[dabong1]

The only point left out in the whole rant is an answer to a tiny question:

Its always a rant to indians when the facts are put in right the context

Why should India subsidize a religious pilgrimage, whichever religion, it may be, when it is constitutionally secular ?

I dont now the reasons why and how the hajj subsidy came about in india but if its that much of a issue dont give it to the muslims....as far as i can recall only those that can afford it should go to hajj so i see no reason why the indian govt should have a hajj subsidy only then it must be about goodwill or its about the vote bank.

The same way the govt of india should not subsidize a religious pilgrimage (hajj) it should not also subsidize religious festivals (Kumbh Mela)..."For example, everytime Kumbh Mela is held, the State builds infrastructure for the pilgrims. It organizes Amarnath and Mansarovar Yatras. And doles out compensation for pilgrims who lose their life during pilgrimage. Moreover, during Chhat Puja, municipal authorities in Bihar clean up water bodies for people to take a dip. Trains run from different parts to take kawariyas for a holy dip at Devgarh. Every year, the government creates facilities for Ramlila. The district magistrate-a representative of the secular State-fires the arrow to set Ravana’s effigy ablaze. All these is done at a great cost to the exchequer." Dr. Rakesh Kr. Singh

 

[dabong1]

LOL.
--
New Hajj policy sent to SC | Pakistan Times!
ISLAMABAD: Federal Ministry for Religious Affairs has forwarded the new Hajj policy to the Supreme Court. The apex court had directed the Religious Affairs Ministry to submit the new Hajj policy by August 31 while hearing of a case of Hajj operators. Advisor to Prime Minister on Religious Affairs, Hamid Saeed Kazmi told Geo News that the expenses of Hajj had registered increase. Last year a pilgrim had to pay 135,000 for going on a Hajj trip on government quota but this year the amount has surged to Rs200,000. He said the overall price hike has also resulted in the rise of total expenses of performing Hajj.

The official said that despite increase in oil prices, the PIA would charge fare ranging from Rs 85,000 to Rs 70,000 from different Pakistani cities. He said that the ministry has finalised all arrangements for accommodating 89,000 pilgrims and arrangements will be finalised soon for the rest of the pilgrims.

The SC would review the policy. The apex court had ordered the Religious Affairs ministry to present the Haj policy in the court till August 31 during hearing a case of Haj operators. The court would hear the case tomorrow with reference to haj quota. Advisor to Prime Minister for Religious Affairs Hamid Saeed Kamzi told Geo News that Haj expenses have been increased this year as compared to previous year.

The Haj pilgrims on government quota had paid the Rs.135, 000 last year, which has been increased to Rs. 200,000 this year. He said that the reason of increment in expenses is over all price hikes. Airfares have also been increased. Hamid Kazmi said that a medical mission comprised of 320 officials and 260 Haj Khuddam would accompany the Haj pilgrims.

-----

I dont understand your point?

 

[karnivore]

Its always a rant to indians when the facts are put in right the context

I called it a rant, because the author willfully sidestepped the core issue - secularism.

I dont now the reasons why and how the hajj subsidy came about in india but if its that much of a issue dont give it to the muslims....as far as i can recall only those that can afford it should go to hajj so i see no reason why the indian govt should have a hajj subsidy only then it must be about goodwill or its about the vote bank.

Its all about vote bank politics.

The same way the govt of india should not subsidize a religious pilgrimage (hajj) it should not also subsidize religious festivals (Kumbh Mela)..."For example, everytime Kumbh Mela is held, the State builds infrastructure for the pilgrims. It organizes Amarnath and Mansarovar Yatras. And doles out compensation for pilgrims who lose their life during pilgrimage. Moreover, during Chhat Puja, municipal authorities in Bihar clean up water bodies for people to take a dip. Trains run from different parts to take kawariyas for a holy dip at Devgarh. Every year, the government creates facilities for Ramlila. The district magistrate-a representative of the secular State-fires the arrow to set Ravana’s effigy ablaze. All these is done at a great cost to the exchequer." Dr. Rakesh Kr. Singh

Yes, all sort of subsidy, in whatever form, whether direct or indirect, to any religious community must be stopped.

However, govt. has its responsibility as administrator. Building infrastructure and providing security or medical facilities, on occasions that see gathering of hundreds or thousands of people, even for religious purpose, do not constitute as subsidy to religious community.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Its always a rant to indians when the facts are put in right the context



I dont now the reasons why and how the hajj subsidy came about in india but if its that much of a issue dont give it to the muslims....as far as i can recall only those that can afford it should go to hajj so i see no reason why the indian govt should have a hajj subsidy only then it must be about goodwill or its about the vote bank.

The same way the govt of india should not subsidize a religious pilgrimage (hajj) it should not also subsidize religious festivals (Kumbh Mela)..."For example, everytime Kumbh Mela is held, the State builds infrastructure for the pilgrims. It organizes Amarnath and Mansarovar Yatras. And doles out compensation for pilgrims who lose their life during pilgrimage. Moreover, during Chhat Puja, municipal authorities in Bihar clean up water bodies for people to take a dip. Trains run from different parts to take kawariyas for a holy dip at Devgarh. Every year, the government creates facilities for Ramlila. The district magistrate-a representative of the secular State-fires the arrow to set Ravana’s effigy ablaze. All these is done at a great cost to the exchequer." Dr. Rakesh Kr. Singh

The Govt does not subsidize kumbha mela, ir only makes necessary arrangements just the way it does for the urs at durgahs. govt does not org amarnath yatras - it does so to protect the devotees from the guns of freedom fighters. mansarovar yatra is run by the govt as reqd by the chinese, but none are subsidized. to my knowledge the arrow at ravana's burning is not very expensive. and don't twist the idea of secularism, a district magistrate can attend any public festivals of non political nature including religious ones. u wanna bet the district magistrate does not attend the urs at ajmer sharif

also the case of muslims progress has been debated to death. muslims are surely not doing well, but there's no govt discrimination in india for it. the reasons are there, and the unwillingness of some muslims to embrace modernity / check birth rate and their geographical distribution (look at bangladesh) is the biggest. and let me show u statistcis too to prove that there's no discrimination.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/current-events-social-issues/20806-indian-minorities-backward.html

How a Muslim Billionaire Thrives in Hindu India - GupShup Forums

i have no problems with pakistan, except that they shud stop harping abt their ideology and start doing something about their dream.