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Harder lines in Londonistan

Dillinger

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Harder lines in Londonistan | The Indian Express | Page 99

Harder lines in Londonistan


Multicultural United Kingdom is having problems with its expatriate Muslim community. Since a large plurality them are expat Pakistanis, one can talk about why the UK is hurting today in light of what Pakistan has already suffered under the Taliban onslaught. Former UK Education Secretary Michael Gove announced last month that the government would “require all 20,000 primary and secondary schools to promote British values”. This led a culturally relativist New Statesman to ask on June 10: “British values, what are they?”

The issue cropped up after “a watershed series of inspectorate reports into 21 Birmingham secular schools, uncovered a limited, Islam-based ideology; rigged staff appointments; inappropriate use of school funds; and a culture of fear and intimidation.” What appeared in the local press cautiously referred to Muslim communities simply taking over secular, government-funded schools and unleashing a madrasa-like regime in them, as any long-suffering liberal-moderate Pakistani would understand it back in Pakistan.

According to The New York Times of June 20, a typical Muslim-dominated school in Birmingham, “Park View, where 98 per cent of students are from a Muslim background, has won special dispensation to hold Islamic assemblies instead. The school allows for lunchtime prayer and shortens the school day during Ramadan. Head scarves are an optional part of the school uniform; but at least four in five wear them. On Fridays, loudspeakers broadcast the fall to prayer which is led by a student.”

Then an op-ed column in New Statesman frankly admitted that the Brits had forgotten their own values after they accepted a plurality of value systems in the UK, proudly nesting “a vibrant variety of cultural, religious and ideological communities”. What was not asked was: if the Brits have forgotten their own values simply to allow others of different values to live among them, had these “others” also agreed to “forget” theirs? Muslims are caught up in sharia law in the 21st century. They can accept British law only in violation of sharia.

The problem is that “values” are not sharia, the code of Islamic punishments that extends to, and questions, the host state’s penal code. If a British Muslim converts, he is to be killed as an apostate under sharia, but Britain will not allow such a punishment. Hindus in the UK can integrate much better because they don’t have a sharia. If a Muslim girl marries a non-Muslim, her father is under obligation to punish her as an apostate.

Studies show Muslims “integrating” in the UK less well than other expats. One has to point out that they integrated well in the past. (My relatives in the UK, for instance, used to be pleasantly anglicised in the 1960s when they visited in Lahore; they look very un-British in their Arab-looking dress today and don’t even integrate in Pakistan.) What is the UK doing to my **** relatives? Pakistan had nothing like Hizbut Tahrir and al-Muhajirun till the two extremist organisations were “sent” here from London, or Londonistan, as the French dub it.

I personally prefer British philosopher Thomas Hobbes to John Locke because the former was more bothered by religion and its judgemental dogma. This also reveals the state of my mind living under social and legislative extremism in Pakistan, even though our government-run schools here are not like the ones in Birmingham. Gilles Kepel happens to be my favourite author after he wrote Allah in the West: Islamic Movements in America and Europe (1997).

According to Kepel, Islamisation of the immigrant Muslim community in the UK was an early post-colonial trend stemming from the British experience in India. Communalisation rather than integration suited the UK because it could then farm out menial jobs to a community formed especially for them. Workers’ mosques came up in the 1950s in the industrial areas of the UK.

But things changed. The Rushdie affair in 1988 almost coincided with the explosion caused by the Islamic scarf affair in France a year later. The protest organised against Rushdie’s Satanic Verses united the fragmented Muslim community in the UK behind Imam Khomeini’s fatwa of death against him.

It began in 1988, when the Islamic Foundation of Leicester campaigned against Rushdie’s blasphemy, but the man who finally ran away with the collective Muslim response was ex-journalist, Kalim Siddiqui, of Jamaat Islami background, who set up his Muslim Parliament and issued what was termed the “Muslim Manifesto” in 1990, actually challenging the British system. Siddiqui came to grief eventually and was exposed for his shady financial deals.

Today, as British-Muslim parents cry for their sons secretly taking off for jihad in Syria, they should rethink their Islamisation as a defence against the British “culture shock”. The UK has the dubious distinction of housing the largest mosque in the world.

London ignored the transformation of the moderate Barelvi-**** mosques into Deobandi-**** mosques — which later spread Talibanisation in Pakistan — because its law on importing imams and preachers was not discriminating enough. Today, the more tolerant Barelvis, who don’t interface with hardline Arab immigrants so well, call themselves the “forgotten children” of the UK.

Muslims have not accepted the “moral relativism” at the root of British tolerance: they are more wedded to the Lutheran “certainty” of the murderous 17th century Europe.

I recall listening to Professor Muhammad Anwar of the University of Warwick in Lahore in 2001 who said Pakistanis living in the UK were 700,000, the third largest minority community. (There were a million Indians in the UK then.) Pakistanis had the highest unemployment rate, five times more than the British average, and the crime rate was higher among them than in any other community. Fully 2 per cent of the prisoners rotting in British jails were Pakistanis, the highest for any one community.

There are three million — unofficially seven million — Pakistanis living outside Pakistan whose thinking about Pakistan tends to be different from the desi Pakistani. They now coyly call themselves “conservative Muslims” and are far less integrated into the host society than non-Muslim expat communities. This is so because of double alienation. The anger against the home country — for not being Islamic enough — which is double that against the hosts, for not being Islamic. Some Muslims flee Pakistan protesting religious persecution but once in the UK, want to create the same hardline religious conditions they have fled.

I indict the UK for transforming a British cousin of mine who harasses me every time he calls in Lahore. For the life of me I can’t recognise the Islam he has adopted living in Londonistan. He is not a “conservative Muslim”. He is dangerous and threatening in the way he rejects my way of life.

Kenan Malik, writing in The New York Times, echoes my view: “Instead of promoting a secular state education system, with a shared educational framework that would ensure that all children are taught to a common standard, the UK government has encouraged different minority communities to define their notion of education and to devise their own curriculum. And when it goes disastrously wrong, as in Birmingham, rather than question its own policies, it blames the community.”

The above is an article by Khaled Ahmed. It brings to light, in general terms without delving too deeply, the progression of radical thought in the UK among its Muslim expats.

@Oscar @Hyperion @waz @Armstrong @Secur @jaibi @S.U.R.B. @Contrarian @hinduguy @Abingdonboy @Bang Galore @Joe Shearer @SarthakGanguly @nair @scorpionx @janon @Chak Bamu @Jungibaaz
 
There is massive extremism and polarization ongoing in the UK. But that is not all the story. The Pakistani community and specifically sections of it have laid waste to their repute by exploiting the rather accommodating laws of the UK to whatever benefit suits them. If questioned they hide under eh guise of religion and Sharia.

I remember of a case in Scotland of an "elderly" couple who kept a young girl brought from Pakistan in their house as a slave in every sense of the word. It is a shame that the Pakistani community in the UK is culturing such intolerant attitudes. The issue is not with Islam, it is the lack of true understanding of it that has led to extremism and dogmatic pollution ruining UK Muslim population.
@Windjammer
 
London ignored the transformation of the moderate Barelvi-**** mosques into Deobandi-**** mosques — which later spread Talibanisation in Pakistan — because its law on importing imams and preachers was not discriminating enough. Today, the more tolerant Barelvis, who don’t interface with hardline Arab immigrants so well, call themselves the “forgotten children” of the UK.

This statement carries a great deal of weight and explains what has happened. It's not the case that Barelvi, or for the rest of our posters "Sufi" mosques were converted, it's just that we saw an explosion of mosques and centres from groups that are far less tolerant towards the British way of life. They now have about 60% coverage as opposed to us (Sufis) 40% coverage.

Even amongst them, there are many a good folk. However the arrival of the "godfathers" of the Islamist agenda in the early 90's changed everything. Here you had the likes of Bakri, Faisal, Hamza who spoke fluent English and spread their poison to the youth. These men were given full asylum, by the governments of that time, even though we spoke out against it. We were turned away time and time again and dismissed as your "internal problem".
 
Elaborate, specifically, as in wrt the above article.

An insignificant minority of the terrorists attacks in the EU or in USA were committed by Muslims in fact between '07 & '10 less than half a percent of all terrorist attacks in the EU were committed by Muslims1 with zero-deaths due to Muslim extremism due in the EU for the same period3 ! Since 9'11 to '09 there has been no civilian deaths in the US at the hands of Muslim extremists4 & the RAND corporation believes that the threat from home-grown extremism has been widely blown out of proportion2. It reads :The number of [Jihadist] recruits is still tiny. There are more than 3 million Muslims in the United States, and few more than 100 have joined jihad—about one out of every 30,000—suggesting an American Muslim population that remains hostile to jihadist ideology and its exhortations to violence. A mistrust of American Muslims by other Americans seems misplaced…
The homegrown jihadist threat in America today consists of tiny conspiracies, lone gunmen, and one-off attacks…


There is no evidence that America’s Muslim community is becoming more radical. Overt expressions of Muslim militancy are muted and rare…


That [overseas] jihadist leaders have been reduced to appeals for others to carry out even small-scale attacks in the United States is evidence of an operational decline that America’s homegrown terrorists will not be able to reverse..


That, then, is the threat America faces at home today: tiny conspiracies, lone gunmen, one-off attacks rather than sustained terrorist campaigns (although a lone gunman killing at random could sustain a campaign, as we saw in the case of the Beltway sniper attacks in 2002).


And if 'radicalization' were to manifest itself even if they're not involved in terrorism than Muslims wouldn't be considerably less likely to justify the killings of civilians than Christians, Jews & Agnostic/Atheists5 in fact they justify it less across the board6.


References :

1 - Updated Europol Data: Less Than 1% of Terrorist Attacks by Muslims | loonwatch.com
2 - RAND report: Threat of homegrown jihadism heavily exaggerated, Zero U.S. civilians killed since 9/11 | loonwatch.com
3 - Europol Reports Zero Deaths from Islamic Terrorism in Europe | loonwatch.com
4 - Annual Report: Zero Civilians in U.S. Killed by Islamic Terrorism... Just Like Every Year Since 9/11 | loonwatch.com
5 - Gallup Poll: Jews and Christians Way More Likely than Muslims to Justify Killing Civilians | loonwatch.com
6 - Surveys Show Muslims in Every Country Less Likely to Justify Killing Civilians than Americans and Israelis | loonwatch.com
 
An insignificant minority of the terrorists attacks in the EU or in USA were committed by Muslims in fact between '07 & '10 less than half a percent of all terrorist attacks in the EU were committed by Muslims1 with zero-deaths due to Muslim extremism due in the EU for the same period3 ! Since 9'11 to '09 there has been no civilian deaths in the US at the hands of Muslim extremists4 & the RAND corporation believes that the threat from home-grown extremism has been widely blown out of proportion2. It reads :The number of [Jihadist] recruits is still tiny. There are more than 3 million Muslims in the United States, and few more than 100 have joined jihad—about one out of every 30,000—suggesting an American Muslim population that remains hostile to jihadist ideology and its exhortations to violence. A mistrust of American Muslims by other Americans seems misplaced…
The homegrown jihadist threat in America today consists of tiny conspiracies, lone gunmen, and one-off attacks…

There is no evidence that America’s Muslim community is becoming more radical. Overt expressions of Muslim militancy are muted and rare…

That [overseas] jihadist leaders have been reduced to appeals for others to carry out even small-scale attacks in the United States is evidence of an operational decline that America’s homegrown terrorists will not be able to reverse..

That, then, is the threat America faces at home today: tiny conspiracies, lone gunmen, one-off attacks rather than sustained terrorist campaigns (although a lone gunman killing at random could sustain a campaign, as we saw in the case of the Beltway sniper attacks in 2002).


And if 'radicalization' were to manifest itself even if they're not involved in terrorism than Muslims wouldn't be considerably less likely to justify the killings of civilians than Christians, Jews & Agnostic/Atheists5 in fact they justify it less across the board6.


References :

1 - Updated Europol Data: Less Than 1% of Terrorist Attacks by Muslims | loonwatch.com
2 - RAND report: Threat of homegrown jihadism heavily exaggerated, Zero U.S. civilians killed since 9/11 | loonwatch.com
3 - Europol Reports Zero Deaths from Islamic Terrorism in Europe | loonwatch.com
4 - Annual Report: Zero Civilians in U.S. Killed by Islamic Terrorism... Just Like Every Year Since 9/11 | loonwatch.com
5 - Gallup Poll: Jews and Christians Way More Likely than Muslims to Justify Killing Civilians | loonwatch.com
6 - Surveys Show Muslims in Every Country Less Likely to Justify Killing Civilians than Americans and Israelis | loonwatch.com

He's talking of radicalization specifically in the UK, not about terrorist but of intolerance and the likes of Anjem (although he doesn't mention the fellow directly).

He's not talking about terrorism, or even specific terrorist organisations.

Did you read the specific article Buttsy!!
 
London ignored the transformation of the moderate Barelvi-**** mosques into Deobandi-**** mosques — which later spread Talibanisation in Pakistan — because its law on importing imams and preachers was not discriminating enough. Today, the more tolerant Barelvis, who don’t interface with hardline Arab immigrants so well, call themselves the “forgotten children” of the UK.

This statement carries a great deal of weight and explains what has happened. It's not the case that Barelvi, or for the rest of our posters "Sufi" mosques were converted, it's just that we saw an explosion of mosques and centres from groups that are far less tolerant towards the British way of life. They now have about 60% coverage as opposed to us (Sufis) 40% coverage.

Even amongst them, there are many a good folk. However the arrival of the "godfathers" of the Islamist agenda in the early 90's changed everything. Here you had the likes of Bakri, Faisal, Hamza who spoke fluent English and spread their poison to the youth. These men were given full asylum, by the governments of that time, even though we spoke out against it. We were turned away time and time again and dismissed as your "internal problem".

What do you reckon is the way forward?

Could you perhaps provide some details, context, instances, examples and experiences to populate the above article and to substantiate/complement the information present within?
 
The issue is not with Islam, it is the lack of true understanding of it that has led to extremism and dogmatic pollution ruining UK Muslim population.
]
I remember every conversation i had with you on extremism, the discussion always ends with one point, Ie Mis interpretation.....The only way to reduce/eliminate this menace is by spreading right interpretation...... If this is done on a large scale, lot skepticism around islam especially from those non- muslim population will be removed.....People will start looking at islam as a religion of peace...... and the world will be a different place....
 
What do you reckon is the way forward?

Could you perhaps provide some details, context, instances, examples and experiences to populate the above article and to substantiate/complement the information present within?

The way forward my friend is mass information campaigns, especially on the internet. Reaching out in person to many impressionable youth and working with local government on issues that become too "sticky". All of which I and groupings I affiliate with do.

As for details and examples to substantiate the above assertions I literally could go on and on bro. I think it's best to focus on what can be done about it.
 
Something is seriously wrong with the author. He is interpreting an issue with education in Birmingham from a Pakistani liberal perspective. Many of his statements (rather like article's heading) stand out like:

" unleashing a madrasa-like regime in them, as any long-suffering liberal-moderate Pakistani would understand it back in Pakistan."
"The UK has the dubious distinction of housing the largest mosque in the world."
"If a Muslim girl marries a non-Muslim, her father is under obligation to punish her as an apostate."
" What is the UK doing to my **** relatives?"
"I indict the UK "

Self-serving more-moderate-than-thou narcissistic prick. He is mal-adjusted in Pakistan and is grumbling about Muslims being mal-adjusted in UK. How nice it must be to be able to scold the liberal democracies operating on the principles of secular humanism from the 'back-ward' confines of Lahore?

One must say that indeed the UK policies need to be looked at and over-hauled. But that can not be a cause to be celebrated by people like this one.
 
I remember every conversation i had with you on extremism, the discussion always ends with one point, Ie Mis interpretation.....The only way to reduce/eliminate this menace is by spreading right interpretation...... If this is done on a large scale, lot skepticism around islam especially from those non- muslim population will be removed.....People will start looking at islam as a religion of peace...... and the world will be a different place....

To quote from a nice reminder posted by @asad71 on what Dr Shankar Dayal Sharma wrote

Jo ilm ki kitaab thi.
Usay laa ilmon ke haath thamaa diyaa.

That which was a book of knowledge;
You abdicated to the ignoramus.
 
The way forward my friend is mass information campaigns, especially on the internet. Reaching out in person to many impressionable youth and working with local government on issues that become too "sticky". All of which I and groupings I affiliate with do.

As for details and examples to substantiate the above assertions I literally could go on and on bro. I think it's best to focus on what can be done about it.

Honestly, I think it would be constructive if you could take out some time and try and populate the thread with your own experience in dealing with this issue, do try.

@waz and @Oscar seem to find some merit in the article while @Chak Bamu and @Armstrong tend to find some faults, although Chak does not disregard that a problem does exist but he disagrees with the author's general POV and method of unpacking the issue and describing it.

Any chance you gentlemen can look at each other's opinions on this thread and comment upon them, to see why the divergence exist and if there is a common meeting point?
 
There is massive extremism and polarization ongoing in the UK. But that is not all the story. The Pakistani community and specifically sections of it have laid waste to their repute by exploiting the rather accommodating laws of the UK to whatever benefit suits them. If questioned they hide under eh guise of religion and Sharia.

I remember of a case in Scotland of an "elderly" couple who kept a young girl brought from Pakistan in their house as a slave in every sense of the word. It is a shame that the Pakistani community in the UK is culturing such intolerant attitudes. The issue is not with Islam, it is the lack of true understanding of it that has led to extremism and dogmatic pollution ruining UK Muslim population.
@Windjammer

Well, it's more of a homegrown problem. It happens when you give your British Passports to those who weren't really educated or skilled, and thus came to Britain, raised their kids in Ghettoized neighborhoods/Islamic centers, and wallah one or two generations down the road, you have teenagers and youth in their 20s fighting Allah's war in Syria. British have done worse to the world during their colonial rule, and as such it is their 'white guilt' that has allowed them to accept immigrants from all corners of the world. Once you consider them as your own, it's a tough task to keep hold.
 
Well, it's more of a homegrown problem. It happens when you give your British Passports to those who weren't really educated or skilled, and thus came to Britain, raised their kids in Ghettoized neighborhoods/Islamic centers, and wallah one or two generations down the road, you have teenagers and youth in their 20s fighting Allah's war in Syria. British have done worse to the world during their colonial rule, and as such it is their 'white guilt' that has allowed them to accept immigrants from all corners of the world. Once you consider them as your own, it's a tough task to keep hold.

The British administration has plenty of blame to shoulder indeed, letting people like Anjem role about freely without even taking a serious look at the actual material he was dealing with in his speeches, this wasn't a bloke who was criticizing British policies in the middle east or Britain's part in the WOT, this is a guy who was advocating full scale insurgency since he considered the British parliamentary system itself as illegitimate.
 
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